Does Ephesians 2:3 really teach an inherited sin nature?

[holyrokker]

Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Let's analyze the passage for a moment.

vs 1 “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins” Notice the possessive adjective – “your”. We were dead in our sins, not in Adam’s sins.

vs 3 "...were by nature children of wrath."

In the Greek text, the verb translated “were” is in the imperfect tense, middle voice. The imperfect tense describes unfinished, continuous, or habitual action in the past. So it is characterizing the life of an unregenerate person. The imperfect would not have been used to signify someone being born into a state or condition.
The middle voice conveys the idea of personal involvement. It is not used to indicate an action imposed upon a person from the outside.

So, the passage cannot mean that we are born with a sinful nature, or that somehow Adam’s actions caused us to be born into a state whereby we are objects of God’s wrath. Instead, the passage tells us that we rightfully incure God’s wrath because of our own personal involvement in our very own sins.

 

[2 King]

vs 1 and 2 you'll notice, immediately after his prayer, Paul remind the Ephesians of the reality of personal sin. Like them, we must never forget our past, the condition ffrom which Jesus saved us. Those memories are the best fuel for our gratitude to Christ for all he has done in our behalf.
In vs.2 Paul describes Satan, the devil, as "the commander of the powers in the unseen world." Paul's readers believed that Satan and the evil spiritual forces inhabited the region between earth and sky. Satan thus pictured as ruling an evil spiritual kingdom--the demons and those who are against Christ. In the resurrection, Christ was victorious over the devil and his power. Therefore, Jesus Christ is the permanent ruler of the whole world; the devil is only the temporary ruler of the part of the world that chooses to follow him.

verse 2:3---The fact that all people, without exception, commit sin proves that without Christ we have a sinful nature. We are lost in sin and connot save ourselves. Does this mean only Christians do good? Of course not--many people do good to others. On relative scale, many are moral, kind, and law abiding. Comparing these people to criminals, we would say that they are very good indeed. But on God's absolute scale, no one is good enough to earn salvation ("Dead because of your disobedience and your many sins." Ephesians 2:1). Only through being united wiht Christ's perfect life can we become good in God's sight. "Subject to God's anger" refers to those who are to receive God's wrath because of their rejection of Christ.

 

[holyrokker]

verse 2:3---The fact that all people, without exception, commit sin proves that without Christ we have a sinful nature.

No, it only means that we all, without exception, have "turned each to his own way"
There is nothing inherently sinful about being a human.
We cannot blame our rebellion on something within our nature.

 

[2 King]

remember back in Genesis where people did what they saw right in their own eyes? That alone tells you how humans think...God had them all wiped up with the flood etc. you know the story.

 

[holyrokker]

Exactly - "in their own eyes" - meaning personal responsibility. It a horrbile thing that each person, according to his own purpose, turns away from God and lives a life of self-justification and self-gratification.

There isn't an inherent sinful condition that causes men to rebel.

 

[2 King]

ah there you go..you got things under control then

 

[holyrokker]

ah there you go..you got things under control then

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[MrPolo]

Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which youvs 3 "...were by nature children of wrath."

In the Greek text, the verb translated “were” is in the imperfect tense, middle voice.

According to NetBible (which I think uses Strong's dictionary), that word is imperfect, "no voice."

I do not follow your imperfect tense analysis. How does "were by nature" indicative of personal fault?

 

[sawdust]

Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
Let's analyze the passage for a moment.

vs 1 “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins” Notice the possessive adjective – “your”. We were dead in our sins, not in Adam’s sins.

vs 3 "...were by nature children of wrath."

In the Greek text, the verb translated “were” is in the imperfect tense, middle voice. The imperfect tense describes unfinished, continuous, or habitual action in the past. So it is characterizing the life of an unregenerate person. The imperfect would not have been used to signify someone being born into a state or condition.
The middle voice conveys the idea of personal involvement. It is not used to indicate an action imposed upon a person from the outside.

So, the passage cannot mean that we are born with a sinful nature, or that somehow Adam’s actions caused us to be born into a state whereby we are objects of God’s wrath. Instead, the passage tells us that we rightfully incure God’s wrath because of our own personal involvement in our very own sins.

It's not talking about whether we inherit a sinful nature or not. It assumes that position and begins with the result, ie. "you were once (spiritually) dead..."

The sin nature is biologically formed and resides in every cell of our body. (Rom.7:23) This we inherit directly from Adam (down through the generations). It is because of this inherent defect (sin nature) that the Lord cannot impute to us a human spirit for He cannot commune with that which is sinful. This is our condition at birth, physically alive yet defective (hence genetic malformations, disease, and ultimately physical death) and spiritually dead (no human spirit which means we have no way of "connecting" with God)

It is to the latter condition (spiritual death) that the verse in question is speaking.

peace

 

[holyrokker]

It's not talking about whether we inherit a sinful nature or not. It assumes that position and begins with the result, ie. "you were once (spiritually) dead..."

The sin nature is biologically formed and resides in every cell of our body. (Rom.7:23) This we inherit directly from Adam (down through the generations). It is because of this inherent defect (sin nature) that the Lord cannot impute to us a human spirit for He cannot commune with that which is sinful. This is our condition at birth, physically alive yet defective (hence genetic malformations, disease, and ultimately physical death) and spiritually dead (no human spirit which means we have no way of "connecting" with God)

It is to the latter condition (spiritual death) that the verse in question is speaking.

peace

Did you come to this conclusion based upon your study of Scripture? I'm about what led you to your conclusion.

 

[abelieverinChrist05]

No, it only means that we all, without exception, have "turned each to his own way"
There is nothing inherently sinful about being a human.
We cannot blame our rebellion on something within our nature.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom 5:12)

 

[sawdust]

Did you come to this conclusion based upon your study of Scripture? I'm about what led you to your conclusion.

It is based on what I have been taught by a very good pastor grounded in the ancient languages, history and theology.


peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

It's not talking about whether we inherit a sinful nature or not. It assumes that position and begins with the result, ie. "you were once (spiritually) dead..."

The sin nature is biologically formed and resides in every cell of our body. (Rom.7:23) This we inherit directly from Adam (down through the generations). It is because of this inherent defect (sin nature) that the Lord cannot impute to us a human spirit for He cannot commune with that which is sinful. This is our condition at birth, physically alive yet defective (hence genetic malformations, disease, and ultimately physical death) and spiritually dead (no human spirit which means we have no way of "connecting" with God)

It is to the latter condition (spiritual death) that the verse in question is speaking.

peace

Well hello there Sawdust, it's great to see you here!

I remember during "the good ole days" having a discussion with you on the human spirit and I wasn't agreeing with you. Although now I think I can, if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

[sawdust]

Well hello there Sawdust, it's great to see you here!

I remember during "the good ole days" having a discussion with you on the human spirit and I wasn't agreeing with you. Although now I think I can, if I'm understanding you correctly.

G'day Neph. (big hugs to ya)

I took a "holiday" there for awhile. Same ol' arguments by the same ol' faces.

Yes, I remember the discussion. Good to see you've come around. You should've known to just agree with me in the first place though, me being a woman an' all. We females are never wrong!

peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

G'day Neph. (big hugs to ya)

I took a "holiday" there for awhile. Same ol' arguments by the same ol' faces.

Yes, I remember the discussion. Good to see you've come around. You should've known to just agree with me in the first place though, me being a woman an' all.

Well I agree with what you said here about Eph. 2:3. I believe that we're 3 part beings; body, soul, and spirit, which I don't think you believe, but I now agree that we were born spiritually dead. Back then I didn't believe that but thought non-believers had live spirits.

We females are never wrong!

peace

No comment.

 

[sawdust]

Well I agree with what you said here about Eph. 2:3. I believe that we're 3 part beings; body, soul, and spirit, which I don't think you believe, but I now agree that we were born spiritually dead. Back then I didn't believe that but thought non-believers had live spirits.


No comment.

We are three parts but not until we are born again. Until a person believes in the Lord and is born again they have no human spirit, hence no spiritual life.

You cannot have a "dead spirit". It's an oxymoron, like "honest politicain".

The human spirit is "generated" (for want of a better term) through the intimate act of being brought into union with God (through faith). Just as a baby is born through the intimate union between a man and a woman.

We are born inherently defective and therefore cannot be brought into union with God apart from the Gospel which, is the power unto salvation. Until then, God cannot "birth within us" a human spirit, we are only body and soul. It is by God's grace that the Holy Spirit acts as a "proxy" in the place of the human spirit so that we might hear the Gospel and believe. If He did not? we would never understand the Gospel message because it is spiritual and the spiritually dead cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

peace

 

[nephilimiyr]

We are three parts but not until we are born again. Until a person believes in the Lord and is born again they have no human spirit, hence no spiritual life.


You cannot have a "dead spirit". It's an oxymoron, like "honest politicain".

Well then you and I are in agreement all the way around.

The human spirit is "generated" (for want of a better term) through the intimate act of being brought into union with God (through faith). Just as a baby is born through the intimate union between a man and a woman.

Wouldn't created be a better term?
2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!

Ephesians 4:24, and put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

We are born inherently defective and therefore cannot be brought into union with God apart from the Gospel which, is the power unto salvation. Until then, God cannot "birth within us" a human spirit, we are only body and soul. It is by God's grace that the Holy Spirit acts as a "proxy" in the place of the human spirit so that we might hear the Gospel and believe. If He did not? we would never understand the Gospel message because it is spiritual and the spiritually dead cannot understand the things of the Spirit.

peace

Very true!
1 Corinthians 2:14-15, The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement.

And I believe that the word judgement here is including us judgeing God's truth as it is revealed to us through the Holy Spirit. We judge, or should, all things according to God's truth.

 

[holyrokker]

We are three parts but not until we are born again. Until a person believes in the Lord and is born again they have no human spirit, hence no spiritual life.

You cannot have a "dead spirit". It's an oxymoron, like "honest politicain".

The human spirit is "generated" (for want of a better term) through the intimate act of being brought into union with God (through faith). Just as a baby is born through the intimate union between a man and a woman.

I agree with this.
Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Spiritual birth comes through the Holy Spirit. I don't think it's a matter of being born spiritual dead, then God raising our spirits to life. It's just that physical birth and spiritual birth are two different events.

Since spiritual birth is a separate event, it is only natural that we will begin life with the focus of fulfilling our physical desires.
"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24) We can't have a relationship with the Father until we have been born spiritually. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "

This is the reason we all sin. It isn't due to some "sin nature" residing in us at birth.

 

[sawdust]

Well then you and I are in agreement all the way around.


Wouldn't created be a better term?
2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!

Ephesians 4:24, and put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.


Very true!
1 Corinthians 2:14-15, The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgements about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgement.

And I believe that the word judgement here is including us judgeing God's truth as it is revealed to us through the Holy Spirit. We judge, or should, all things according to God's truth.

Well, that's just it. The scripture never seems to speak of the human spirit as being "created". It is simply something God gives. We see the human soul being created (bara) in Gen.1:27. We see the body (Adam's original body) being formed (yatsar) in Gen.2:7 but when it comes to the human spirit? There are no "creative" words associated with it.

It would appear that the human spirit is something of God Himself. The best analogy that I can think of is like if I were to give you my blood. Obviously that analogy can only go so far because my blood is in fact created but I think you get the general gist of what I mean.

The "new creation" mentioned is looking from the perspective of the whole person not just the parts. Plus, this isn't referencing just regeneration but is revealing the uniquness of what we become in Christ. Never before in all human history has a man been indwelt by the Triune God. Yet we, the Church, are the abode of God.

Same with the Ephesians passage. It is looking at it from the perspective of the whole process. The new bodies we will receive in the Resurrection are created but God does not literally create a new soul for us when we believe. Rather, our souls are transformed through the intake of the word and the change of thinking renews our soul. As the preceeding verse puts it.. "we are made new in the attitude of our minds". Although this passage does not specifically refer to the new body, that knowledge is a part of our thinking. This is where we see eschatology impacting us in the present.

We don't judge God's truth. His truth (which is the word) judges us but you are correct in that the word then becomes our frame of reference for making judgements of "all things". If we refuse to come under the judgement of the word and stubbornly hold to our own thinking, we necessarily are not in a position to make correct judgements. If our thinking is false, our judgements will be false. Of course we all are subject to getting it wrong but that's not the problem. The problem comes when one refuses to be corrected.

Personally, I have come to enjoy being found wrong because then I have the opportunity to get it right and know Christ more.

peace

 

[sawdust]

I agree with this.
Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
Spiritual birth comes through the Holy Spirit. I don't think it's a matter of being born spiritual dead, then God raising our spirits to life. It's just that physical birth and spiritual birth are two different events.

Since spiritual birth is a separate event, it is only natural that we will begin life with the focus of fulfilling our physical desires.
"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24) We can't have a relationship with the Father until we have been born spiritually. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "

This is the reason we all sin. It isn't due to some "sin nature" residing in us at birth.

The problem is how then do you explain why a two day old baby dies? If we are not born with a sin nature then there is no reason whatsoever for the Lord not to accept us and be in union with us from birth.

If we had no sin nature at birth then fulfilling our physical desires from the beginning would not present a problem. The reason it is a problem (and you only need watch my 2yo grandson to see it is ) is because those desires are governed by a law that is anti-God. (Rom.7:23) This is the law of the sin nature, a nature that is inherited from Adam.

That nature is in residence prior to the act of sin.

But sin, (ie sin nature) seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. Rom.7:8

This is why the job of the Holy Spirit is to convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgement. The truth (God's law) makes us aware of the sin nature that is existent within us from birth. When the Lord's truth comes? Instead of it making everything right, it actually exacerbates the problem. (I'm speaking here from an experiential position). We know what the right thing to do is but, try as we might, we cannot do it.

If regeneration was the only thing necessary to fix man's problem (of death) then we would not still physically die after we believe.

Man's problem is twofold in that he needs to be born again and he needs to be delivered from this "body of death"(Rom.7:24). Believing in Christ does not make us sinless but it does (if we grow in His word and abide through faith) make us sin less.

peace