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Does election pertain to us?

ghs1994

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Who are the first fruits of Christ and how do they relate to Election? It seems that anytime the word "election" is used, it isn't used in reference with us, but pertaining to those "first fruits", which I believe to be the early first generation of believers.

What do you say about this? Does election truly pertain to us, or to those whose names are found in scripture? I do believe in election--that is to say God elected certain people for the purpose of perfectly fulfilling His promises. But does it spill over onto us?
 

mlqurgw

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ghs1994 said:
Who are the first fruits of Christ and how do they relate to Election? It seems that anytime the word "election" is used, it isn't used in reference with us, but pertaining to those "first fruits", which I believe to be the early first generation of believers.

What do you say about this? Does election truly pertain to us, or to those whose names are found in scripture? I do believe in election--that is to say God elected certain people for the purpose of perfectly fulfilling His promises. But does it spill over onto us?
I believe that Eph.1:3-13 makes it very clear that it pertains to us. I would ad 2Thess. 2:13
The doctrine of election is second only to the atonement of Christ in prominence as doctrine taught in the Scriptures.
 
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ghs1994

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mlqurgw said:
I believe that Eph.1:3-13 makes it very clear that it pertains to us. I would ad 2Thess. 2:13
The doctrine of election is second only to the atonement of Christ in prominence as doctrine taught in the Scriptures.

Doesn't it seem funny that in 3-13, Paul is referring to his group of people, his travelling companions, the first fruits of God when it deals with election/predestination and not with the Ephesians.

He says is verse 13, ...In whom you also trusted....

Verse 13 changes who he was referring to concerning election/predestination. Look in 3-12, he says "we" or "us", but in 13, he says "you", and changes who he was talking about, yet still talking to the Ephesians in 3-12 about himself and his companions.

In that passage, it seems Paul is referring to his election and the election of the first fruits of Christ(his companions) according to predestination.

In verse 9, it says, "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will.....

He didn't make his will known to us until it was given to those He chose to bring the Word of God to the Ephesians, which also includes us. These were men set apart, according to election/predestination, that God used for the sole purpose of bringing His mysteries to us so that we could understand them (His Word).

Now I do believe that God has predestined all His children to be more like Christ as scripture tells us.
 
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mlqurgw

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ghs1994 said:
Doesn't it seem funny that in 3-13, Paul is referring to his group of people, his travelling companions, the first fruits of God when it deals with election/predestination and not with the Ephesians.

He says is verse 13, ...In whom you also trusted....

Verse 13 changes who he was referring to concerning election/predestination. Look in 3-12, he says "we" or "us", but in 13, he says "you", and changes who he was talking about, yet still talking to the Ephesians in 3-12 about himself and his companions.

In that passage, it seems Paul is referring to his election and the election of the first fruits of Christ(his companions) according to predestination.

In verse 9, it says, "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will.....

He didn't make his will known to us until it was given to those He chose to bring the Word of God to the Ephesians, which also includes us. These were men set apart, according to election/predestination, that God used for the sole purpose of bringing His mysteries to us so that we could understand them (His Word).

Now I do believe that God has predestined all His children to be more like Christ as scripture tells us.
Hmm. Could this possibly be reading into rather than just reading? There is no change there at all. If that were the case than how do you read 2Tess. 2:13 or 1Thess. 1:4-10, 1pet. 1:1,2; or a myriad of other passages? Men have been trying to explain away God's sovereign election for centuries but have yet to come up with a truly Biblical refutation. :preach:
 
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mlqurgw

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Properly understood, the doctrine of God's sovereign election is one of the most humbling and yet most glorious teachings of Scripture. It puts us on our faces in the dirt at the feet of Christ Jesus and lifts us from the dunghill and sets us on a rock that cannot be moved.
 
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bradfordl

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The only reason anyone would try to refute the doctrine of predestination/election of all the saved is that they have a problem with God being absolutely sovereign over all things. Past/present/future events, every single little and big one of them, are perfectly planned and precisely carried out by God, regardless of the fact that it may look like chaos to us mere humans. Those who refuse to accept that are trying to anthropomorphise God to wrest from Him some of His sovereignty. I think they do that because it frightens them that they have no control over events or God. An ALL powerful God is a scary thing.
 
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Elect

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ghs1994 said:
Doesn't it seem funny that in 3-13, Paul is referring to his group of people, his travelling companions, the first fruits of God when it deals with election/predestination and not with the Ephesians.

He says is verse 13, ...In whom you also trusted....

Verse 13 changes who he was referring to concerning election/predestination. Look in 3-12, he says "we" or "us", but in 13, he says "you", and changes who he was talking about, yet still talking to the Ephesians in 3-12 about himself and his companions.

In that passage, it seems Paul is referring to his election and the election of the first fruits of Christ(his companions) according to predestination.

In verse 9, it says, "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will.....

He didn't make his will known to us until it was given to those He chose to bring the Word of God to the Ephesians, which also includes us. These were men set apart, according to election/predestination, that God used for the sole purpose of bringing His mysteries to us so that we could understand them (His Word).

Now I do believe that God has predestined all His children to be more like Christ as scripture tells us.
In One Of His Letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human." Probably that renowned scholar resented such a rebuke, the more so, since it proceeded from a miner’s son. Nevertheless, it was thoroughly deserved. We, too, prefer the same charge against the vast majority of the preachers of our day, and against those who, instead of searching the Scriptures for themselves, lazily accept their teachings. The most dishonoring conceptions of the rule and reign of the Almighty are now held almost everywhere. To countless thousands, even professing Christians, the God of Scripture is quite unknown.

Of old, God complained to an apostate Israel, "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Ps. 50:21). Such must now be His indictment against apostate Christendom. Men imagine the Most High is moved by sentiment, rather than by principle. They suppose His omnipotency is such an idle fiction that Satan can thwart His designs on every side. They think that if He has formed any plan or purpose at all, then it must be like theirs, constantly subject to change. They openly declare that whatever power He possesses must be restricted, lest He invade the citidel of man’s free will and reduce him to a machine. They lower the all-efficacious atonement, which redeems everyone for whom it was made, to a mere remedy, which sin-sick souls may use if they feel so disposed. They lessen the strength of the invincible work of the Holy Spirit to an offer of the Gospel which sinners may accept or reject as they please.

The god of this century no more resembles the Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the midday sun. The god who is talked about in the average pulpit, spoken of in the ordinary Sunday school, mentioned in much of the religious literature of the day, and preached in most of the so-called Bible conferences, is a figment of human imagination, an invention of maudlin sentimentality. The heathen outside the pale of christendom form gods of wood and stone, while millions of heathen inside christendom manufacture a god out of their carnal minds. In reality, they are but atheists, for there is no other possible alternative between an absolutely supreme God, and no God at all. A god whose will is resisted, whose designs are frustrated, whose purpose is checkmated, possesses no title to deity, and far from being a fit object of worship, merits nothing but contempt.

The supremacy of the true and living God might well be argued from the infinite distance which separates the mightiest creatures from the Creator. He is the Potter, they are but the clay in His hands, to be molded into vessels of honor or to be dashed into pieces (Ps. 2:9) as He pleases. Were all the denizens of heaven and all the inhabitants of earth to combine in open revolt against Him, it would cause Him no uneasiness. It would have less effect upon His eternal, unassailable throne than the spray of Mediterranean’s waves has upon the towering rocks of Gibraltar. So puerile and powerless is the creature to affect the Most High, Scripture tells us that when the Gentile heads unite with apostate Israel to defy Jehovah and His Christ, "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh" (Ps. 2:4).

The absolute and universal supremacy of God is plainly affirmed in many Scriptures. "Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all . . . And thou reignest over all"

(1 Chron. 29:11-12). Note "reignest" now, not "will do so in the Millennium." "O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none [not even the Devil himself] is able to withstand thee"? (2 Chron. 20:6). Before Him presidents and popes, kings and emperors, are less than grasshoppers.

"But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth" (Job 23:13). My reader, the God of Scripture is no make-believe monarch, no imaginary sovereign, but King of kings, and Lord of lords. "I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought of thine can be hindered" (Job 42:2); or, another translator, "no purpose of thine can be frustrated." All that He has designed, He does. All that He has decreed, He perfects. All that He has promised, He performs. "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased" (Ps. 115:3). Why has He? Because "there is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD" (Prov. 21:30).

God’s supremacy over the works of His hands is vividly depicted in Scripture. Inanimate matter, irrational creatures, all perform their Maker’s bidding. At His pleasure, the Red Sea divided and its waters stood up as walls (Ex. 14); the earth opened her mouth, and guilty rebels went down alive into the pit (Num. 14). When He so ordered, the sun stood still (Josh. 10); and on another occasion went backward ten degrees on the dial of Ahaz. To exemplify His supremacy, He made ravens carry food to Elijah (1 Kings 17); iron to float on the waters (2 Kings 6:5); lions to be tame when Daniel was cast into their den; fire to burn not when three Hebrews were flung into its flames. Thus, "Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places" (Ps. 135:6).

God’s supremacy is also demonstrated in His perfect rule over the wills of men. Ponder carefully Exodus 34:24. Three times in the year all the males of Israel were required to leave their homes and go up to Jerusalem. They lived in the midst of hostile people, who hated them for having appropriated their lands. What, then, was to hinder the Canaanites from seizing the opportunity, during the absence of the men, to enslave the women and children and take possession of their farms? If the hand of the Almighty was not upon the wills even of wicked men, how could He make this promise beforehand, that none should so much as "desire" their lands? "The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water; He turneth it whithersoever he will" (Prov. 21:1).

But, some may object, do we not read again and again in Scripture how men defied God, resisted His will, broke His commandments, disregarded His warnings, and turned a deaf ear to all his exhortations? Certainly we do. Does this nullify all we have said? If so, then plainly the Bible contradicts itself. But that cannot be. What the objector refers to is simply the wickedness of men against the external word of God. We have mentioned what God has purposed in Himself. The rule of conduct He has given us to walk by is perfectly fulfilled by none of us. His own eternal counsels are accomplished to their minutest details.

The absolute and universal supremacy of God is affirmed with equal positiveness in the New Testament. We are told that God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11)—the Greek for "worketh" means "to work effectually". For this reason we read, "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Rom. 11:36). Men may boast they are free agents, with a will of their own, and are at liberty to do as they please. But Scripture says to those who boast, "we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell . . . ye ought to say, If the Lord will" (Jam. 4:13, 15).

Here then is a sure resting-place for the heart. Our lives are neither the product of blind fate nor the result of capricious chance. Every detail of them was ordained from all eternity and is now ordered by the living, reigning God. Not a hair of our heads can be touched without His permission. "A man’s heart deviseth his way, but the LORD directeth his steps" (Prov. 16:9). What assurance, what strength, what comfort this should give the real Christian! "My times are in thy hand" (Ps. 31:15). Then let me "Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him" (Ps. 37:7). - A. W. Pink
 
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edie19

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mlqurgw said:
Properly understood, the doctrine of God's sovereign election is one of the most humbling and yet most glorious teachings of Scripture. It puts us on our faces in the dirt at the feet of Christ Jesus and lifts us from the dunghill and sets us on a rock that cannot be moved.

My pastor says essentially the same thing - and I agree with him (and you).

Aside from the Ephesians passages, I've never understood how someone could read Christ's High Priestly prayer (John 17) and not see God's election. How much more clear does it have to be than "the people you have given me?"

edie
 
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heymikey80

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ghs1994 said:
Doesn't it seem funny that in 3-13, Paul is referring to his group of people, his travelling companions, the first fruits of God when it deals with election/predestination and not with the Ephesians.

He says is verse 13, ...In whom you also trusted....

Verse 13 changes who he was referring to concerning election/predestination. Look in 3-12, he says "we" or "us", but in 13, he says "you", and changes who he was talking about, yet still talking to the Ephesians in 3-12 about himself and his companions.
Yes, this is great question, and it points to things very relevant even today. I've noticed this before, too. The pronoun focus is not exact, largely because the context we're trying to impose on these letters is not exactly what Paul meant when he wrote about it. We're pressing Paul's words a little. There're good reasons for doing so, don't get me wrong. But the proof must include the context. We can't "prooftext" with a verse out of context.

Essentially Paul is focusing on one thing, then focusing on another.

In this case though, I'm not entirely sure Paul is referring to "us" as the Apostolic ministers. He may be. It undoubtedly includes many of them. However, I would expect that many in Paul's group by this time were relatively new additions from Corinth, Thessalonica, etc. These people would not fit that more-absolutist "we who were the first to hope in Christ".

I think Paul is talking in such a way as to focus on the "first-wave" believers, and then to focus on the larger church drawn up around them. That God was providentially involved in drawing and holding the "first-wave" believers to Himself, and then by extension drawing others to Himself through them -- this seems to me the pattern Paul mentions. So Paul emphasizes the election of those who responded to God's bare call (His summons), without looking around them for more moral support from their peers. What else but the chosen of God could be so visible? They've responded to God, with no visible means of support. No one could come up with any other cause. Paul's certain it was God's election on full display there.

But it isn't on full display among the second and third waves. By this point there are attractions, there are human fellowships, there's a church formed and functioning to spread the Gospel. And so Paul points out these visible things as well among them.

Is election solely the "first wave" of believers? I don't think so. Paul wanted these groups in the church to actually be joined together by his words. I think he's pointing out how these two special groups combine and form the church ... along with himself personally (the "I" pronoun in 1:15). I think Paul shifts his pronouns slightly to demand this merger in 1:14, "the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance". I think here the pronoun refers to everyone's inheritance.

So why is Paul using pronouns like he does? Um, that would get us into a controversial area of Reformed thought -- which would probably be more appropriate for "Semper Reformanda". What we all do agree on is this: if Paul is focusing on the election of one group of people, he is not necessarily excluding the election of another group of people. "Lack of mention is not mention of lack."

Ultimately Paul does mention election for all in the church in another letter. "So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience ...." Col 3:12 Other places like 2 John :1, :13, Rom 8:28-30, and 2 Thess 2:13 tend to combine together to where we conclude everyone is chosen by God -- that is, elected.

So Paul's special attention to those who first obeyed the Gospel, declaring them obviously and clearly chosen by God, I think is simply "undeniable evidence" to him. There's no other explanation. But the election of all people is the undercurrent of everyone in the church.
 
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