Does Doctrine Influence Scripture?

[BobRyan]

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You do the very same thing that you accuse others of doing. You hold doctrines quite rigidly; you proselytize ; you defend your doctrines, and you think that others are wrong where they disagree with you. You, like every denomination, have read scripture and come to your conclusions, so do you doubt yourself everyday?

Isn't that description you are giving - the same way the Jews viewed the Christians?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Blood that Jesus shed, cleanses us from our sins. His resurrection conquers death.
He took the wrath that God would lay upon us when He was on the cross, Because God hates sin, he couldn't even look at His son for the he carried our sins to the cross, yet he never sinned. Those sins were ours, we deserved what he got, not Him.
If we were to get what we think we deserved from God, it would be Hell, because of our sins. But Christ sacrifice was satisfactory to God, Christ paid the final bill for us, when He said "It is finished".
When we sin, we sin directly against God. Sin isn't horizontal, it's a vertical affront against God. He hates it and he hates those who commit the sin. He says He hates the wicked's soul all the day long. Meaning, if you live with sin in your life and you've not repented and trusted Jesus as your Savior, and you continue to live in sin. You stack up the wrath of God against you. And at the time of judgment, that wrath will come down on you like you've never seen before.
The Word tells us. Woe is the man who is caught in the hands of an Angry God..
He save us from the wrath of God, as he cleanses us from our sins.

Would you like to face God, and Him angry with you? I know I don't.

I'm familiar with the modern ways in which Penal Substitution are expressed.

My point is that I disagree. God isn't saving us from Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Edmond Smith]

I'm familiar with the modern ways in which Penal Substitution are expressed.

My point is that I disagree. God isn't saving us from Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

Show me this biblically please?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Show me this biblically please?

That would require proving a negative, the burden of proof falls on the one making a positive claim.

I can provide Scripture for what I believe salvation is about if you want however.

Perhaps you could provide Scripture wherein God is saving us from Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Edmond Smith]

That would require proving a negative, the burden of proof falls on the one making a positive claim.

I can provide Scripture for what I believe salvation is about if you want however.

Perhaps you could provide Scripture wherein God is saving us from Himself.

-CryptoLutheran

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom 5:6 KJV)
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (Rom 5:7 KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8 KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:9 KJV)
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:10 KJV)
And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Rom 5:11 KJV)

Who's wrath shall we be saved from?

Eze 18:21,30 - Talks about How God doesn't want to judge people, How he doesn't want to put them to die. But He will. It's his wrath that will be poured out upon people who don't repent. Not His love. He poured out His love to everyone, before you die, it's here and He loves us. But because He is a just and righteous God, he must judge us and punish according. And his punishment isn't done in love, its done in wrath.

We who are born again, have lived the life of sin and rebelliousness toward God, We were that way, but are no longer children of wrath.

And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Eph 2:1 KJV)
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Eph 2:2 KJV)
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:3 KJV)

Who are we children of? God.

I don't say these things to scare people. I say these things because the scripture does. I know that's circular, but it's the truth. God in his mercy has granted us this time to come to him and to repent of our sins, so that we would not have to face His wrath come judgment day.
It's not want he wants to do, but because of who He is and what He stands for, he must.

But just telling people that God loves them, without showing them they have sin in their lives, that means nothing to many people today. I've witnessed to many and have heard that from so many people. That God loves me and would never punish me, no matter what I do. That is a false teaching. That is wrong.
God will,
We are to spread the Gospel...the whole truth...not what makes people feel good or comfortable...I don't care if they want to feel good or comfortable. I want to see them in heaven. I want them to be Born Again. I want them to hear the truth of God's Word, not watered down drivel that's been preached today. And anyone who claims to be a Child of God, who is no longer a Child of Wrath. And doesn't want to tell the truth, because your afraid of hurting someone's feelings, then I suggest you study Christ again. He didn't pull any punches. He was straight forward with everyone he spoke to. He used the law to show where people stand in their religious life. He didn't preach comfort, He preached radical, so much so it got Him crucified, To God be the Glory for that.
Read the Epistles of Paul again. You'll not find one statement in there where He says, God loves you and everything will be alright.

He's saving us from one of His attributes...His Wrath...which is part of Himself. A part He doesn't want to use, but must.

 

[ViaCrucis]

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom 5:6 KJV)
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (Rom 5:7 KJV)
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8 KJV)
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom 5:9 KJV)
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (Rom 5:10 KJV)
And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Rom 5:11 KJV)

Who's wrath shall we be saved from?

Eze 18:21,30 - Talks about How God doesn't want to judge people, How he doesn't want to put them to die. But He will. It's his wrath that will be poured out upon people who don't repent. Not His love. He poured out His love to everyone, before you die, it's here and He loves us. But because He is a just and righteous God, he must judge us and punish according. And his punishment isn't done in love, its done in wrath.

We who are born again, have lived the life of sin and rebelliousness toward God, We were that way, but are no longer children of wrath.

And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (Eph 2:1 KJV)
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (Eph 2:2 KJV)
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Eph 2:3 KJV)

Who are we children of? God.

I don't say these things to scare people. I say these things because the scripture does. I know that's circular, but it's the truth. God in his mercy has granted us this time to come to him and to repent of our sins, so that we would not have to face His wrath come judgment day.
It's not want he wants to do, but because of who He is and what He stands for, he must.

But just telling people that God loves them, without showing them they have sin in their lives, that means nothing to many people today. I've witnessed to many and have heard that from so many people. That God loves me and would never punish me, no matter what I do. That is a false teaching. That is wrong.
God will,
We are to spread the Gospel...the whole truth...not what makes people feel good or comfortable...I don't care if they want to feel good or comfortable. I want to see them in heaven. I want them to be Born Again. I want them to hear the truth of God's Word, not watered down drivel that's been preached today. And anyone who claims to be a Child of God, who is no longer a Child of Wrath. And doesn't want to tell the truth, because your afraid of hurting someone's feelings, then I suggest you study Christ again. He didn't pull any punches. He was straight forward with everyone he spoke to. He used the law to show where people stand in their religious life. He didn't preach comfort, He preached radical, so much so it got Him crucified, To God be the Glory for that.
Read the Epistles of Paul again. You'll not find one statement in there where He says, God loves you and everything will be alright.

He's saving us from one of His attributes...His Wrath...which is part of Himself. A part He doesn't want to use, but must.

Let's try to unpack some of this. Is Christ saving us from God? No. We are being saved from sin and what sin leads to--namely death and destruction in judgment. There is already a judgment against the world and the world's evils, Christ says in John ch. 3

"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. Those who believe in Him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." - John 3:17-21

God's Law reveals our wickedness and judges us sinners,

"But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied;" - Romans 5:20a

God's Law condemns us, justly and rightfully so; it is in this condemnation that we behold God, terrifying and awful, a wrath kindled against us not in contradiction to His love, but in His love. If there were not love, then we would not read,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 or as St. Paul writes,

"But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

It is not contrary to the love which God has for sinners that His wrath is kindled against us and our injustice, it is because He is the God who loves and cares for His world.

And it is out of this compassion that He sends His only begotten and beloved eternal Son, who becomes flesh for our sake, and takes the weight of sin and death, uniting Himself to us in our lowliness and the quagmire of our sin, to undo the ruin which we have brought to ourselves and to creation. For by one man's disobedience came sin and death, so by the obedience of the one man, Christ, comes resurrection from the dead.

For our salvation is from sin and death, from the corruption and perishing of this present age and all its injustice, in order that we be reconciled to God through the gracious kindness of God that is in Christ.

God is not saving us from Himself, He has saved us and is saving us from the tyranny sin, death, hell, and the devil; for our Lord has overcome the powers of this world, and rescued us from the destruction of this fallen age to the hope of world to come and the life everlasting. For He who made all things will see to it that all things be made right and that all of creation restored--a new heavens and a new earth--for which reason Christ, the new man, the second Adam, has come to undo what Adam did, and to restore to us what was lost.

God's disposition toward sinners is mercy, else there is no Gospel. It is the Law that condemns, but it is a passive condemnation by declaring what is true and right--the one who runs through a red light is condemned by the law not because the law is out to get him and harm him, but because the law is what it is and says what it says; so are we condemned under God's Law because the Law is what it is, and it is good and just. But it is the kind, compassionate Father who sends His own Son to rescue us from the tyranny and power of sin and death; not from Himself, but from the powers that separate us from Him.

Our Lord Christ is the Great Physician who comes into the broken places of our world to mend and to heal the dead and dying, the Savior who comes loosening the chains and liberating the prisoners held captive by the enemy. That is who Christ is, the One who saves us, not from His Father, but from ourselves, a perishing age, and the tyranny of sin and death. So that by Him and in Him we have received forgiveness of all our sins, been made new creatures, and given the promise of the future resurrection and life everlasting in God's future world. That's the good news.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Edmond Smith]

Let's try to unpack some of this. Is Christ saving us from God? No. We are being saved from sin and what sin leads to--namely death and destruction in judgment. There is already a judgment against the world and the world's evils, Christ says in John ch. 3

"Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through Him. Those who believe in Him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God." - John 3:17-21

God's Law reveals our wickedness and judges us sinners,

"But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied;" - Romans 5:20a

God's Law condemns us, justly and rightfully so; it is in this condemnation that we behold God, terrifying and awful, a wrath kindled against us not in contradiction to His love, but in His love. If there were not love, then we would not read,

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 or as St. Paul writes,

"But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

It is not contrary to the love which God has for sinners that His wrath is kindled against us and our injustice, it is because He is the God who loves and cares for His world.

And it is out of this compassion that He sends His only begotten and beloved eternal Son, who becomes flesh for our sake, and takes the weight of sin and death, uniting Himself to us in our lowliness and the quagmire of our sin, to undo the ruin which we have brought to ourselves and to creation. For by one man's disobedience came sin and death, so by the obedience of the one man, Christ, comes resurrection from the dead.

For our salvation is from sin and death, from the corruption and perishing of this present age and all its injustice, in order that we be reconciled to God through the gracious kindness of God that is in Christ.

God is not saving us from Himself, He has saved us and is saving us from the tyranny sin, death, hell, and the devil; for our Lord has overcome the powers of this world, and rescued us from the destruction of this fallen age to the hope of world to come and the life everlasting. For He who made all things will see to it that all things be made right and that all of creation restored--a new heavens and a new earth--for which reason Christ, the new man, the second Adam, has come to undo what Adam did, and to restore to us what was lost.

God's disposition toward sinners is mercy, else there is no Gospel. It is the Law that condemns, but it is a passive condemnation by declaring what is true and right--the one who runs through a red light is condemned by the law not because the law is out to get him and harm him, but because the law is what it is and says what it says; so are we condemned under God's Law because the Law is what it is, and it is good and just. But it is the kind, compassionate Father who sends His own Son to rescue us from the tyranny and power of sin and death; not from Himself, but from the powers that separate us from Him.

Our Lord Christ is the Great Physician who comes into the broken places of our world to mend and to heal the dead and dying, the Savior who comes loosening the chains and liberating the prisoners held captive by the enemy. That is who Christ is, the One who saves us, not from His Father, but from ourselves, a perishing age, and the tyranny of sin and death. So that by Him and in Him we have received forgiveness of all our sins, been made new creatures, and given the promise of the future resurrection and life everlasting in God's future world. That's the good news.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't disagree with what you just said. It's the truth.

But who is it that does the condemnation to those who are already condemned? God
Who is it that judges man for His sins and then lays out the punishment for these sins? God

You absolutely right, well the scripture you show is right. God does love us. He did send his son. To save us from our sins by cleansing them from us.

You see, sin, isn't a thing...it's an action. It's what we do against God, by transgressing His laws. How does one save someone from a thing? You remove it. That's what Christ Blood does, it removes it from us, cleanses us of all unrighteousness. There's no argument there. None what so ever.

But God is Angry, to say he isn't is a lie. He hates sin and he hates the soul of those who commit the sin also. Because you can't hate that which is an action without hating the one who commits the action.

We have to remember that God's love is all encompassing, John 3:16, that's true.
But we must also remember His love is conditional also, the individual love we have with him, that relational love we have. Like the love between a husband and wife. They both love everyone in their families hopefully. But in the end, they should bear things they go through with that love they share between each other. And if you live in sin and rebel against God, you do not have a relationship with him. You are separated from God, because of your sins, and this He doesn't like and every time you sin. You stack that wrath up against you, and on the day of judgment he will pour it down upon those people. Which, He doesn't, Christ don't and I don't want to see happen to anyone.

The Old Testament is a rich source of knowledge when it comes to learning about the nature of God. Psalms 5:5 speaking of God “You hate all workers of iniquity” and Psalm 7:11 “God is a just judge and God is angry with the wicked everyday”; Psalm 11:5 says this of the Lord “The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates”. And Psalm 97:10 instructs Christians how they should feel towards the sinner “You who love the Lord, hate evil (or evildoer)”. The workers of iniquity would be those who continually sin despite knowing the truth of God, they are lawless and have no respect for God and His moral law and Christian who loves God will hate sin and love righteousness.

Even Jesus hated evil. Hebrews 1:9 was speaking of Jesus “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness…” (Understand this verse could be amplified to read workers of righteousness and workers of lawlessness. Righteousness and lawlessness have no existence apart from the moral agent committing such acts.). This can also apply to the Sermon on the Mount; where Jesus says "Blessed are those who seek righteousness". What He is saying is blessed are those who seek to live and do righteous acts.

I think if we take the bible in its proper context and not lift any scriptures out of context we will see that God has a general benevolence for mankind but does indeed hate the workers of iniquity as well as the iniquity – additionally the concept of “unconditional love” is not a biblical concept. God’s love and mercy are great, but not unconditional, Paul tells us to preach the full counsel of God which includes His hatred of sin and the workers of iniquity as well as His mercy and love towards those who repent and place their faith in Christ.

We Christians are to love the righteous and hate the evildoers; while holding a benevolence towards the evildoers as we attempt to reach them for Christ. But the minute we go beyond this "benevolence" to a love that accepts the evil of the workers of iniquity we become a murky spring and polluted well (proverbs 25:26). We find ourselves as friends of the world; and we know that James said that "Any man who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God". We can have familial relations whereby we love our unsaved family members while disapproving of their sinful deeds - this is a tight line to walk and if we are not careful; we may find ourselves fighting against God because James also said "friendship with the world is enmity towards God". Remember Jesus said that "A man's enemies will be the members of his own house, I came to set father against son, daughter against mother...". There is a sense in which the members of our own households become our enemies for Christ's sake. The Christian must use great caution with their friendly and family relationships, and the bible gives us ample warning about "bad company corrupting good morals".

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. There's just much more to the Gospel, than, Jesus loves you. Because He does, but because He does, he has to judge us. And at that time, being Born Again is the only way to not be judge by God's wrath. other wise if someone mets God without Christ and swimming in their sins. It won't be a joy ride for them.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. There's just much more to the Gospel, than, Jesus loves you. Because He does, but because He does, he has to judge us. And at that time, being Born Again is the only way to not be judge by God's wrath. other wise if someone mets God without Christ and swimming in their sins. It won't be a joy ride for them.

It's critical that we make a distinction between Law and Gospel. The Gospel is entirely about the work of God in saving us, it isn't the condemnation that we have under the Law--that'd be the Law's job.

The Law always condemns.
The Gospel always saves.

To quote Luther from his Heidelberg Disputation, "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done. Grace says 'Believe in this' and it is done already."

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because of the Gospel. Apart from Christ we are universally condemned under the Law--because of the holiness and righteousness of the Law which reveals to us our sinfulness.

The Gospel is the Word which God desires to speak to us, because of His great compassion that He has for us; the Law is the Word which God "must" speak, because He is good and just and we are not. But it is the will of God that all be saved; that is His revealed will, that is the Deus Revelatus, the Revealed God, revealed to us in and by Christ. It is not the will of God that any be damned, and so damnation comes not from the will and desire of God, but from ourselves.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

My premise is that the way one reads and understands scripture is largely based on how they were taught to understand it. This is true for the majority of Christians, certainly true for the official, ordained priests/pastors/ministers of a church.

Yes you're right. Indeed it seems unavoidable. Everyone approaches Scripture with some preconceptions about what it means or should mean. Everyone has a bias. The trick is having the correct bias. The doctrine we subscribe to and the our understanding of Scripture have a circular affect on each other. As we grow in our understanding of Scripture our doctrine can change. As our doctrine changes our understanding of Scripture can change. They're really inextricably related. This is sometimes called the "hermeneutical spiral".

If a pastor comes to a different understanding of scripture than what the church's official position is, they are labeled heretic and pushed out if they continue.

Not necessarily. My denomination allows for a good deal of diversity so long as the pastor's beliefs do not "strike at the vitals of the faith" as we see them.

The point of this OP is just to highlight something that should be obvious. Churches influence the understanding of scripture. There are many disagreements in the doctrines of Christianity. Because churches don't tolerate dissension, there has resulted many different denominations. These denominations then train pastors that promote the same understanding that the particular denomination holds. These denominations spend a large portion of the training of their pastors to be familiar with the denomination's doctrine. Of course every denomination will use their "understanding" of scripture to explain why their doctrine is correct.

Indeed, but it may not be quite as rigid as you imply. Even within denominations there's an allowance for a good deal of theological diversity. Still, we ought to draw the doctrinal line somewhere. "Scripture alone" does not mean that we form no creeds that we hold people to. We've got to have some definition of what we think Scripture teaches.

Now I understand the need for churches to guard against false teachings, but my issue is with churches/pastors that defend doctrine over scripture.

It's not really possible to separate doctrine from Scripture. Doctrine is Scripture applied to life. So to defend doctrine (assuming that it's true doctrine) is to defend Scripture. One can, of course, defend false doctrine that is contrary to Scripture and I would stand with you in opposing this.

They present a "bias" in their scripture to defend the church's doctrine. This can go from a simple explanation of how to read/understand established translations, to one church promoting a particular translation, to a church authorizing a translation, to a church having their own special Bible.

Pastors can certainly go too far in insisting upon particular interpretations that are not certain. But there's nothing wrong with a pastor insisting upon, say, the doctrine of the Trinity. That one is pretty well established.

Lastly, I just want all to admit that there is a bias that all doctrine trained posses.

Indeed. Every person approaches Scripture with a bias. The trick is having the right bias.

Does a church's doctrine influence one's understanding of scripture?

Without a doubt.

My hope in this OP is just to get people to acknowledge that their understanding of scripture has been largely influenced by what the established doctrines of their church teach.

I actually came to my positions in opposition to the church that I became a Christian at. I became a Christian through a UMC church but over a long period of studying Scripture and theology I became reformed and joined the PCA. The church I'm in now has certainly influenced my doctrine, but I was not born into it.

 

[JoeP222w]

It can, but not absolutely.

 

[Haipule]

Let's start with a definition of doctrine: a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church.

My premise is that the way one reads and understands scripture is largely based on how they were taught to understand it. This is true for the majority of Christians, certainly true for the official, ordained priests/pastors/ministers of a church. If a pastor comes to a different understanding of scripture than what the church's official position is, they are labeled heretic and pushed out if they continue.

The point of this OP is just to highlight something that should be obvious. Churches influence the understanding of scripture. There are many disagreements in the doctrines of Christianity. Because churches don't tolerate dissension, there has resulted many different denominations. These denominations then train pastors that promote the same understanding that the particular denomination holds. These denominations spend a large portion of the training of their pastors to be familiar with the denomination's doctrine. Of course every denomination will use their "understanding" of scripture to explain why their doctrine is correct.

Now I understand the need for churches to guard against false teachings, but my issue is with churches/pastors that defend doctrine over scripture. They present a "bias" in their scripture to defend the church's doctrine. This can go from a simple explanation of how to read/understand established translations, to one church promoting a particular translation, to a church authorizing a translation, to a church having their own special Bible.

I won't call out a particular church that may have "distorted" scripture to suite their church's doctrine; but if you wish members of such a church to follow scripture over doctrine, then don't be hypocritical and teach the same concept in your church. Lastly, I just want all to admit that there is a bias that all doctrine trained posses.

I offer this poll then.

Does a church's doctrine influence one's understanding of scripture?

My hope in this OP is just to get people to acknowledge that their understanding of scripture has been largely influenced by what the established doctrines of their church teach.

There are so many disagreements here, I just wish one to consider their defense of their belief. Is it biased, based on their church's doctrine or is it truly what scripture teaches?

Great questions, thank you!

Does the Word of God unite us as one body?

Do the doctrines of man divide us infinitely?

Who is telling the truth? Man, or the God-Breathed Scriptures? Can God lie? Can man?

Yet the Scriptures challenges us to challenge them like good Bureans. Apparently, there is a two way street if you want God's truth.

As soon as some man says, "I have a 'spiritual' gift" and 'I am filled with 'the spirit' and cannot lie!'" RUN FOR THE EXIT! Or they will say, "you are fleshly and these things can only be 'spiritually' discerned!" Then they will quote you a verse from Romans, that apparently, only they can understand!

My advice--DONT DRINK THE KOOL-AID!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would like to say that the OP brings up some good points, particularly the point that no one reads Scripture without using their faith tradition or personal beliefs as the lens. This is a fact, and it explains why there are so many variations of understanding of Scripture. This is a fact pure and simple.

It can be done by someone who is willing to re-examine their beliefs based completely on scripture. Most people are just too lazy to do it and would rather have someone tell them what to believe.

The one thing I think can't be done is to think you've ever finished being taught by the Holy Spirit, because that's when people get seriously egocentric about their theology and will die on their mountain.

God never meant for sanctification and learning to cease. Not until one is dead and then we learn in whatever form God will use then.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church.

His Church then wrote down his teachings.

If you want to know what Jesus taught, listen to his Church.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

No where in the Bible does it say to completely listen to any church.

It does however say that scripture is God-breathed and acceptable for teaching all the things to bring one to righteousness in the Lord.

 

[Erose]

It can be done by someone who is willing to re-examine their beliefs based completely on scripture. Most people are just too lazy to do it and would rather have someone tell them what to believe.

Yes and no. In all honesty I did this very exact thing what I guess 30 years ago now, which led me out of Protestantism and into Catholicism, and even today I don't read Scripture and try to force it into a paradigm. I just read it at face value, which oddly for me, has never conflicted with my Church's teachings.

The one thing I think can't be done is to think you've ever finished being taught by the Holy Spirit, because that's when people get seriously egocentric about their theology and will die on their mountain.

God never meant for sanctification and learning to cease. Not until one is dead and then we learn in whatever form God will use then.

Amen. On this we are in full agreement.

 

[Erose]

No where in the Bible does it say to completely listen to any church.

Well Jesus did say: [Lk 10:16] He who hears you, hears me; and he who despises you, despises me; and he who despises me, despises him who sent me.

I don't think that He was speaking to the Bible at this point in time.

It does however say that scripture is God-breathed and acceptable for teaching all the things to bring one to righteousness in the Lord.

Yes it does.

 

[Haipule]

It can be done by someone who is willing to re-examine their beliefs based completely on scripture. Most people are just too lazy to do it and would rather have someone tell them what to believe.

The one thing I think can't be done is to think you've ever finished being taught by the Holy Spirit, because that's when people get seriously egocentric about their theology and will die on their mountain.

God never meant for sanctification and learning to cease. Not until one is dead and then we learn in whatever form God will use then.

I enjoy your posts.

I grew up in a very academic church. The pastor studied 9yrs of Greek and 5yrs of Hebrew in college and always gave us his "corrected translation". So, I became familiar with Greek grammatical terms at an early age.

However, my life and theology came at odds with each other so I studied koinE Greek on my own and taught myself how to translate Greek grammatical inflection hyper-literally honoring every nuance of the writers inflection(grammatical not vocal) and kissed the writers lips so as to have a pure communication without post-denominational noise.

Now my life makes perfect sense and ALL of mans post-denominational(since the first century) theological sticks are fit only for the fire and burned before they poke someone's eye out!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes and no. In all honesty I did this very exact thing what I guess 30 years ago now, which led me out of Protestantism and into Catholicism, and even today I don't read Scripture and try to force it into a paradigm. I just read it at face value, which oddly for me, has never conflicted with my Church's teachings.

So you don't have any conflict with the verse that God tells us to call no one Father but Him? Explain to me how you can make sense of that one?

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

 

[Haipule]

It can be done by someone who is willing to re-examine their beliefs based completely on scripture. Most people are just too lazy to do it and would rather have someone tell them what to believe.

The one thing I think can't be done is to think you've ever finished being taught by the Holy Spirit, because that's when people get seriously egocentric about their theology and will die on their mountain.

God never meant for sanctification and learning to cease. Not until one is dead and then we learn in whatever form God will use then.

Someone might be wondering what grammatical inflection means.

Lets take the Greek noun translated "faith". It's nominative feminine singular form, which is it's lexical form(as you find it in a lexicon) is: pistis.

However, the word can be inflected many ways:
pistei pístei pisteos pisteōs písteos písteōs písteṓs pistin pístin pistis.

The root is pist- and the rest is the writers grammatical inflection of case, gender, and number etc, that the writers actually wrote. If I gave you the verb side of this word, the list of possible word ending alphabet soup is extensive.

Hyper-Literal means that I am honoring all the alphabet soup written by the writers. I'll give you an example of what I do.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?” that is, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?” Matt 27:46 NASB

Let's look at Matthews own translation: first we have the nominative masculine vocative singular: the'e = God! (the "!" represents the vocative case which is the case of direct address).

Then we have the genitive 1st person singular, personal/progressive(ownership) pronoun: mou = of-me/mine. Then these words are repeated(idiom).

God! of-Me, God! of-Me,...

Then we have the conjunction: hina = that(purpose), usually establishing a purpose clause.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose)...

Then we have the accusative neuter singular, interrogative(begs a question)/indefinite(anything, anyone) pronoun: ti = why?-anything>... (the ">" represent the accusative case which is the case of the direct object of the verb. ">" = accusative phrase. "<" = the object).

In Greek, the entire population, or large segment, is always in the masculine gender. Masculine groups are masculine. Female groups are feminine. Whereas, a smaller mixed group is always neuter.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything>...

Then we have the accusative 1st person singular, personal/possessive pronoun: me = <mine. It is in its enclitic form and should not be separated from ti.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything> <mine... Not "stuff"--people! His associates, family, friends and disciples.

Then we have the 2nd person singular, aorist active indicative compound verb: egkatelipes.

Which is first the prefixed preposition: en = in, prefixed to a verb usually connotes (continuing)in.

Then we have the proposition: kata = down(from), which is a two terminus word where the authority is up and the action is down.

Then we have the verb: leipO = desert, abandon, leave, leave as destitute.

God! of-Me, God! of-Me, that(purpose) why?-anything> <mine You-(continuing)in-down(from authority)-leave-destitute(?)*("*" represents the aorist tense which tense has no relation to time).

By virtue of the personal/possessive enclitic pronoun me, there is no way this should have been translated as, "WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME"!

Jesus is not a wimp crying for himself! In fact, He isn't even thinking of Himself even though He is mounted to a tree and about to die. He is crying for His own possession--the people He loved dearly! Just like David, whom Jesus is quoting in Psalm 22:1, whom is crying for his people Israel and not himself!

2,000yrs later and no one has taught this? I think it's cool!

Only to His glory, Bill

 

[Erose]

So you don't have any conflict with the verse that God tells us to call no one Father but Him? Explain to me how you can make sense of that one?

Matthew 23:9
9 And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

Some questions for you to think about. When the writers of the NT use to term "father" to refer to someone who is not God the Father, are they committing a sin? Or when St. Paul refers to Timothy and Titus as being beloved sons, which would infer that he considers himself as a father figure to both of these men, is he committing a sin? Or when in 1st Timothy 5:1, when St. Paul entreats the congregation to treat the elderly men as "fathers" is he leading this congregation into sin?

Or perhaps is it possible that you may not have a full understanding of what Jesus was trying to teach here?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well Jesus did say: [Lk 10:16] He who hears you, hears me; and he who despises you, despises me; and he who despises me, despises him who sent me.

How does that prove that we should get our doctrine from any church totally?

The Berean's were commended for searching the scriptures for everything that was preached to them to see if in the Bible it is so.

So is this not the example given in scripture of how we are to be taught? To search the scripture and confirm teaching, not just take it for granted that what they are telling us is true?