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The key difference is that science is about trying to create the most accurate understanding of how the universe works. Whereas creationist arguments about chromosome fusion 2 solely exist as an argument against evolution and to protect creationist beliefs.
Is a presupposed assumption worse than a regular assumption? It sounds scarier!
To Pita (but the same applies to you if you will not recognize the possibility this demonstrable observable fact implies)...Neanderthals are human and show no fusion at 300,000 years ago, and then OMO humans at 120,000 years ago do demonstrate a fusion, then what POSSIBILITIES does this suggest?
Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
This seems like a no brainer to me.
Except there are 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages..not sure your seeing the full explanations but you never do.Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
This seems like a no brainer to me.
Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
This seems like a no brainer to me.
It turns out that Neanderthals and Denisovans each had 24.
when I looked up your reference I could not access it. I was told this site does not have a secure connection and may contain malware!?! So I will try and find it another way.
Well just to let you know I could not find safe access to your reference (my computer safety protocols will not allow it) but I did find reference to this study in John Hawkes blog. I respect him and find him to generally be reliable and not dogmatic so I will concede to you at this point that in this study they found such an example (I am not above being corrected). But I will still be looking for it.
Well just to let you know I could not find safe access to your reference...
Where are you getting that from? All the evidence I can find says they had 23...not that there's any hard evidence either way.
It's the lynch pin of your argument. some evidence would be nice.
Except there are 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages..
Your post, I cut and pasted it, your slipping UCog. I miss the good old days when you were better then that.Citation?
We may not safely conclude this at all...could be or might be does not equal IS. It is reasonable however in light of the hypothesis and I will take it into consideration (but first I must find your reference)
Your post, I cut and pasted it, your slipping UCog. I miss the good old days when you were better then that.
Where are you getting that from? All the evidence I can find says they had 23...not that there's any hard evidence either way.
It's the lynch pin of your argument. some evidence would be nice.
Meyer M, Kircher M, Gansauge MT, Li H, Racimo F, Mallick S, et al. (October 2012). "A high-coverage genome sequence from an archaic Denisovan individual". Science. 338 (6104): 222–6.Bibcode:2012Sci...338..222M.
Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
This seems like a no brainer to me.
Mark I have you on ignore for precisely this sort of crap. There was nowhere in my post were I said there were chromosome splits in gorillas and chimpanzees. You misread or misunderstood what I did write, which was proposing alternative explanations for why we observe the chromosome numbers that we do.
Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
'there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage', for crying out loud.
I hope you're not being deliberately obtuse.
Go back and read the quote. It mentions three possible scenarios including the one where it mentions the possibility (but not the probability) that 'there were two separate fusion events in Homo lineage'.
The obvious conclusion is that the most likely event is option 3, a common ancestor with a fused Chromosome 2.
OB
One problem with the OP is that humans are apes. Perhaps a discussion of monophyly is necessary before discussing chromosome 2.
Great! Maybe you could start with an example of our common ancestor? Please be specific as possible.
No! But it is essential to demonstrate monophyly (which YOU wanted to discuss)...if it does not exist the discussion is moot. Does it? Can you show me? A simple yes or no would suffice...
Where did you get the idea that Neanderthals show no fusion? Everything I can find says that the recovered Neanderthal DNA was is good enough shape to determine if they had a fused chromosome two or even if they had 46 chromosomes. One thing we do know, however, is that the Denisovans had 46 chromosomes and that chromosome 2 has a fusion site just like sapiens chromosome 2.
Denisovans, Humans and the Chromosome 2 Fusion
As that article points out. Either the ancestral population had 46 chromosomes (with a strange chromosome 2 that looks fused) and there were at least 2 chromosome splitting events in both the gorilla and chimpanzee lineages...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there were two separate fusion events in the Homo lineage (Denisovans and sapiens) but not in Neanderthals...
... or the ancestral population had 48 chromosomes and there was a single fusion event in the Homo lineage and we can safely conclude that Neanderthals had a fused chromosome 2 just like sapiens and Denisovans.
This seems like a no brainer to me.
I just thought it was funny that he wanted citation for his own comment.I hope you're not being deliberately obtuse.
Go back and read the quote. It mentions three possible scenarios including the one where it mentions the possibility (but not the probability) that 'there were two separate fusion events in Homo lineage'.
The obvious conclusion is that the most likely event is option 3, a common ancestor with a fused Chromosome 2.
OB
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