Does Cain’s punishment support evolution?

[Paul.]

While reading through some threads, I came across this statement

just looking for some bible verses supporting evolution. I know about Genesis 4:13 (Cain's punishment)

Despite reading the relevant passage several times, I fail to see how it supports evolution. Would someone explain to me, the reasoning behind the belief that Cain’s punishment supports evolution.

 

[Assyrian]

Gen 4:13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
It suggests there were other people Cain would come across in his wanderings who might kill him.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Genesis 4:17 also suggests that there were people aside from Adam and Eve and their sons - people living outside of Eden.
This brings to mind several threads on polygenism we had a few months ago ...

 

[juvenissun]

While reading through some threads, I came across this statement

Despite reading the relevant passage several times, I fail to see how it supports evolution. Would someone explain to me, the reasoning behind the belief that Cain’s punishment supports evolution.

It is not too hard to stretch it:

Any change needs to be gradual in order to make evolution possible. If the change is too much, then the species died out rather evolved.

It makes sense, until you think about how does the environment really change. It changed gradually all right. But it changes back and forth.

 

[Paul.]

It suggests there were other people Cain would come across in his wanderings who might kill him.

The Genesis account does not exclude the possibility that:
a) Abel had children before he died
b) Cain already had other brothers and sisters
c) Cain was worried about people from future generations in his family who had not even been born yet
d) Cain was concerned his parents might take revenge into their own hands

Since Cain could have been referring to one or all of these possibilities, I still don't see that the scripture provides any support for evolution. Thank you for explaining the reasoning of those that do. You are welcome to debate my reasoning if you wish.

 

[Paul.]

Genesis 4:17 also suggests that there were people aside from Adam and Eve and their sons - people living outside of Eden.

How?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Genesis 4:17 also suggests that there were people aside from Adam and Eve and their sons - people living outside of Eden.

How?

Genesis lists all the male descendants but never says where the women came from. Here it mentions Cain had a wife from the land of Nod (although it doesn't mention whether God make her out of dust too).

 

[artybloke]

Why would it 'support' evolution? It's a story written by non-scientific people a long time ago, before there was any science.

Interpreting it as having any 'literal' 'historical' validity is ridiculous. It has theological value, but is nothing to do with science. This kind of biblical nitpicking is a good way of missing the entire point of the creation stories.

 

[Assyrian]

Why would it 'support' evolution? It's a story written by non-scientific people a long time ago, before there was any science.

Interpreting it as having any 'literal' 'historical' validity is ridiculous. It has theological value, but is nothing to do with science. This kind of biblical nitpicking is a good way of missing the entire point of the creation stories.

It is not so much that it supports evolution as much as undermining the traditional creationist interpretation of the Genesis, that Adam and Eve were the first human beings and the whole human race is descended from them. Instead the author of the narrative seem to assume there were other people for Cain to be afraid of, and among whom he settled and got married.

 

[Assyrian]

The Genesis account does not exclude the possibility that:
a) Abel had children before he died
b) Cain already had other brothers and sisters
c) Cain was worried about people from future generations in his family who had not even been born yet
d) Cain was concerned his parents might take revenge into their own hands

Since Cain could have been referring to one or all of these possibilities, I still don't see that the scripture provides any support for evolution. Thank you for explaining the reasoning of those that do. You are welcome to debate my reasoning if you wish.

You could read it that way, it just isn't a natural reading of the text. There is no mention of Adam and Eve having other children until after Seth. 'Whoever' as in "whoever finds me will kill me", is a strange way for Cain to describe his Mother and Father.

 

[juvenissun]

It is not so much that it supports evolution as much as undermining the traditional creationist interpretation of the Genesis, that Adam and Eve were the first human beings and the whole human race is descended from them. Instead the author of the narrative seem to assume there were other people for Cain to be afraid of, and among whom he settled and got married.

If you think about it, Jewish population multiplied many many many times during the 400 years time in Egypt. Adam's life is much longer than 400 years. Then how many people could Adam and his sons make? It is A LOT.

Provided that all of them are farmers and need land to survive. It is easy to understand that these people would migrate and occupy a wide area.

Gen 4:1-3 do not have time specification. Let's say Cain killed Abel 250 years after Cain was born, is it such a surprise that there are already many people lived in the nearby cities?

 

[Assyrian]

If you think about it, Jewish population multiplied many many many times during the 400 years time in Egypt. Adam's life is much longer than 400 years. Then how many people could Adam and his sons make? It is A LOT.

Provided that all of them are farmers and need land to survive. It is easy to understand that these people would migrate and occupy a wide area.

Gen 4:1-3 do not have time specification. Let's say Cain killed Abel 250 years after Cain was born, is it such a surprise that there are already many people lived in the nearby cities?

Genesis say Seth was born after Abel was killed, Eve said "God has appointed to me another seed in place of Abel because Cain killed him." Gen 4:25, and Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years Gen 5:3. Given the ages ascribed to people when they had children, we aren't talking teenage pregnancies here either. But more importantly, Adam and Eve's other sons and daughters a placed after the birth of Seth. Which makes much more sense of Eve's declaration about Seth being the appointed seed. If they had a large family running around at the time Abel was murdered, then Eve still had seed. Eve was speaking as a woman who had lost her whole family.

 

[juvenissun]

Genesis say Seth was born after Abel was killed, Eve said "God has appointed to me another seed in place of Abel because Cain killed him." Gen 4:25, and Seth was born when Adam had lived 130 years Gen 5:3. Given the ages ascribed to people when they had children, we aren't talking teenage pregnancies here either. But more importantly, Adam and Eve's other sons and daughters a placed after the birth of Seth. Which makes much more sense of Eve's declaration about Seth being the appointed seed. If they had a large family running around at the time Abel was murdered, then Eve still had seed. Eve was speaking as a woman who had lost her whole family.

Does the seed mean child? Every child of Eve is one of her seed.

I also guess there has been no killing at that time until the case of Abel. So, when one of her son died by killing for the first time, it could be a big deal.

 

[Assyrian]

Does the seed mean child? Every child of Eve is one of her seed.

Which suggests Seth was her only child now.

I also guess there has been no killing at that time until the case of Abel. So, when one of her son died by killing for the first time, it could be a big deal.

She lost two children that day, Cain was outcast. That would be a big deal for a parent no matter how used to death you were.

 

[juvenissun]

Which suggests Seth was her only child now.

She lost two children that day, Cain was outcast. That would be a big deal for a parent no matter how used to death you were.

OK, you mean children live with her at the same locality.

That does not mean she does not have many other children somewhere else.

(I figure that she could have one child every two years. So Seth was born when Adam was 150. We can figure out what was the population at that time. )

 

[ViaCrucis]

OK, you mean children live with her at the same locality.

That does not mean she does not have many other children somewhere else.

(I figure that she could have one child every two years. So Seth was born when Adam was 150. We can figure out what was the population at that time. )

Or we could accept that those who wrote/compiled the story weren't interested in these questions and that focusing on these details misses whatever it is they do want to talk about.

It's like looking at Da Vinci's Mona Lisa and trying to figure out if she ever ate asparagus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Assyrian]

OK, you mean children live with her at the same locality.

That does not mean she does not have many other children somewhere else.

I don't see how that follows. There is a difference between children who have moved away and ones who are cast out for murdering their brother. She lost two children that day. I don't see how you work out that this means there were others.

(I figure that she could have one child every two years. So Seth was born when Adam was 150. We can figure out what was the population at that time. )

Assuming they had other children apart from Cain and Abel, which there isn't a hint of in the text.

 

[juvenissun]

Or we could accept that those who wrote/compiled the story weren't interested in these questions and that focusing on these details misses whatever it is they do want to talk about.

It's like looking at Da Vinci's Mona Lisa and trying to figure out if she ever ate asparagus.

-CryptoLutheran

So you think the OP is a crazy one? I am just trying to help him.

 

[juvenissun]

I don't see how that follows. There is a difference between children who have moved away and ones who are cast out for murdering their brother. She lost two children that day. I don't see how you work out that this means there were others.

Assuming they had other children apart from Cain and Abel, which there isn't a hint of in the text.

But Cain said that there ARE people out there.

OK, how do you interpret this metaphorically? By not looking at the question?

 

[Assyrian]

But Cain said that there ARE people out there.

Indeed, strangers he referred to as 'whoever finds me' not family. He still felt safe at home, it was being cast out to wander the world that frightened him.

OK, how do you interpret this metaphorically? By not looking at the question?

Right now I am looking at the literal meaning of the text. It's a powerful warning against bitterness and hate for your brother though.