Does Australia have an identity or are we just multiculturalism?

[The Bad Templar]

And? Freedom to practice one's religion is an entirely separate issue to state supported religion.

But if the Greens in NSW were successful, Christian community schools would have their ability to discriminate regarding procuring staff on the basis of faith and sexuality extinguished.

This has implications on the practice of Christian parents wanting to practice their religion by having Christian heterosexuals teaching their children.

It's got nothing to do with state sponsored religion.

Which of those do you personally feel your children must wear?

Neither, but I wouldn't stand for my children being banned from wearing crucifixes while muslim girls could wear hajibs.

I would encourage my children to comply if there was a black ban on all.

I would be satified with two options...

The school system allowing for all religious dress requirement following community consultation then strict adherence to the dress code. Not ad hoc changes to suit political correctness.

Or...

A complete ban on conspicuous dress for all religions.

I know of no Christian denomination that believes children must wear a cross or crucifix. The school I work for did not (until recently) allow students to wear a cross or crucifix and this is a Christian (Catholic) school. We do, however, allow Muslim girls to wear the hijab as that is a requirement of their faith - and one we can easily accomodate. We now allow a small religious symbol (cross or whatever) to be worn around the neck. Comparing a religious symbol that is required to be worn with one that is a choice is a false comparison.

Sorry, it's not a 'false comparison'.

Hajibs are not a religious requirement either... they are only a symbol of faith and a means of preserving modesty (irrelevant in my opinion when it comes to school age children).

A crucifix is a symbol of faith as well.

Theoretically, couldn't the Pope hand down an edict tomorrow requiring catholics to wear the rosery?

 

[ebia]

But if the Greens in NSW were successful, Christian community schools would have their ability to discriminate regarding procuring staff on the basis of faith and sexuality extinguished.

Quite rightly in the case of the latter. I wouldn't particular support to former - if some schools want to recruit on that basis I would let them. I wouldn't let a child of mine go anywhere near such as school.

This has implications on the practice of Christian parents wanting to practice their religion by having Christian heterosexuals teaching their children.

I don't particularly want my children taught by narrow-minded bigots. Should schools be able to refuse to employ conservative Christians?

It's got nothing to do with state sponsored religion.

Prayer in a state assemby such as parliament is exactly that, unless equal provision is provided for all faiths and none.

Neither, but I wouldn't stand for my children being banned from wearing crucifixes while muslim girls could wear hajibs.

Selfishness and pettymindedness is not becoming.

I would be satified with two options...

The school system allowing for all religious dress requirement following community consultation then strict adherence to the dress code. Not ad hoc changes to suit political correctness.

Which is pretty much what does happen normally.

Sorry, it's not a 'false comparison'.

Hajibs are not a religious requirement either... they are only a symbol of faith and a means of preserving modesty (irrelevant in my opinion when it comes to school age children).

It's not your opinion that matters. If people believe that their faith requires them to dress modestly in this way it is a faith requirement.

A crucifix is a symbol of faith as well.

But not one that any version of the Christian faith (AFAIK) requires one to wear.

Theoretically, couldn't the Pope hand down an edict tomorrow requiring catholics to wear the rosery?

And if he did, then schools would have to review their policies.

 

[little_wing]

Selfishness and pettymindedness is not becoming.

I think this is what one side of the issue comes down to, in my opinion. People aren't looking to best serve the children and the community, but want to score political points, or make a show of "not giving in" to minority groups. Why drag kids through that?

Peace

 

[The Bad Templar]

I don't particularly want my children taught by narrow-minded bigots. Should schools be able to refuse to employ conservative Christians?

Strawman. I wasn't arguing that.

If Christian parents want to send their children to a 'Christian' school, with teachers who actually profess the faith and the parents believe through their interpretation of scripture that heterosexuality is a trait of a 'Christian' teacher... then the issue does impact on the parent's practice of their faith.

And don't try to make out that I share the views of the hypothetical parents I mentioned earlier.

My children are going to local public schools with teachers that are lesbians who are also former colleagues of mine who are utmost professionals and of whom I have no qualms about teaching my children.

Prayer in a state assemby such as parliament is exactly that, unless equal provision is provided for all faiths and none.

We'd moved on from that.

Selfishness and pettymindedness is not becoming.

*Meow* *Scratch* *Hiss*

Nastiness and ad hominem implications are unbecoming and petty too... especially from someone who takes the high ground on matters of fallacy.

Someone didn't take their Bob Brown Endorsed, Whale Friendly, Party Approved, 100% Recyclable, 'Tolerance' Vitamins this morning, did they?


I never thought equality was unbecoming and being concerned about one's personal freedoms as being petty.

Must be new Green policy.

It's not your opinion that matters. If people believe that their faith requires them to dress modestly in this way it is a faith requirement.

Your opinion certainly means nothing to me either... but we're going to have to put up with it until the Greens legislate to gag open debate.

It's not a 'requirement', when will you get that? It is an option and is non-compulsory. And essentially it is not 'religious' but a cultural reflection of faith.

Shouldn't issues of modesty in a secular school system be guided by the secular ethics and values of the society? If you don't agree with it... sent your kids to an Islamic school. The dress code of a school reflects the expectations of society regarding the modesty of children.

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

Otherwise, forcing children to wear a head covering is an involuntary act and not a reflection of the child's faith, but the parents.

Instead of protecting the child's modesty, what you are actually doing is sexualising the child by implying that the child has sexual allurments to cover-up and that the girl's existence as an individual is as a subordinate future wife.


Some might get that warm-inner-glow of 'tolerance' (tm) and 'diversity' (tm) seeing little muslim girls running around the playground in their hajibs... but they haven't asked the deeper questions regarding the misogyny behind them wearing it.

And if he did, then schools would have to review their policies.

So, if one man could do that... could any denomination, sub-denomination, cult, sect, family or individual change the direction of secular departmental policy that easily?

 

[The Bad Templar]

I think this is what one side of the issue comes down to, in my opinion. People aren't looking to best serve the children and the community, but want to score political points, or make a show of "not giving in" to minority groups. Why drag kids through that?

You're pretty much just a one-man cheer squad at the moment, little wing.

 

[little_wing]

If Christian parents want to send their children to a 'Christian' school, with teachers who actually profess the faith and the parents believe through their interpretation of scripture that heterosexuality is a trait of a 'Christian' teacher... then the issue does impact on the parent's practice of their faith.

I'm with you there 100%. It's just common-sense that a religious school shouldn't have to employ people who don't share their philosophy.

It's not a 'requirement', when will you get that? It is an option and is non-compulsory. And essentially it is not 'religious' but a cultural reflection of faith.

Shouldn't issues of modesty in a secular school system be guided by the secular ethics and values of the society? If you don't agree with it... sent your kids to an Islamic school. The dress code of a school reflects the expectations of society regarding the modesty of children.

I agree with you to an extent, and I have it on good authority that the veil is an Arabic thing rather than an Islamic thing.

However, it is clear that some people feel it necessary to wear it, or that their kids wear it. It's their faith, and the expression of that faith doesn't really bother anyone else, so why stop it? I mean, if the religion mandated blood sacrifice at recess--yeah, there's rationale for exlusion from the public system. But seriously, a headscarf? Doesn't bother me if the kid wears it, and I don't see why it bothers you. Hell, it's less obnoxious than all these emo kids these days

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

Otherwise, forcing children to wear a head covering is an involuntary act and not a reflection of the child's faith, but the parents.

And christian kids shouldn't be going to church until they're 18 and old enough to make a decision for themselves.


Edit: I love being a one man cheer squad, mate.

 

[ebia]

Strawman. I wasn't arguing that.

Exactly what strawman do you think I attacked?

If Christian parents want to send their children to a 'Christian' school, with teachers who actually profess the faith and the parents believe through their interpretation of scripture that heterosexuality is a trait of a 'Christian' teacher... then the issue does impact on the parent's practice of their faith.

And? I've never suggested that everything demanded in the name of faith should be delivered. But that which can be resonably delivered should be. Allowing descrimantory practices has a huge social cost. Allowing a schoolgirl to wear the hijab does not.

My children are going to local public schools with teachers that are lesbians who are also former colleagues of mine who are utmost professionals and of whom I have no qualms about teaching my children.

I'm pleased to hear it.

Nastiness and ad hominem implications are unbecoming and petty too... especially from someone who takes the high ground on matters of fallacy.

Someone didn't take their Bob Brown Endorsed, Whale Friendly, Party Approved, 100% Recyclable, 'Tolerance' Vitamins this morning, did they?

Not exactly taking your own advice, are you.

I never thought equality was unbecoming

What you are promoting isn't equality but jealosy.

Must be new Green policy.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that, just because I chose to display the green party symbol, I somehow represent that party.

Your opinion certainly means nothing to me either.

It's not my opinion that matters either. It's the opinion of the girls and their parents that matters. It's up to them to decide if their faith requries this dress or not, it's not up to you or me.

but we're going to have to put up with it until the Greens legislate to gag open debate.

You seem a little paranoid about the Green party.

It's not a 'requirement', when will you get that?

That's not for you or me to decide. Many Muslims do regard it as neccessary.

Shouldn't issues of modesty in a secular school system be guided by the secular ethics and values of the society?

One of those secular ethics is the right to observe one's religion so long as that doesn't infringe the rights of others. Presumably you would also like Christian RE teachers and Chaplains removed from our state schools.

If you don't agree with it... sent your kids to an Islamic school. The dress code of a school reflects the expectations of society regarding the modesty of children.

Slightly tricky if the nearest Islamic school is 400km away or you can't afford it. State education is supposed to cater for everyone, not just Anglo-Australians. Artificial barriers should not be placed in the way of that.

Many Muslim families do choose another alternative if possible - an Islamic school or a Catholic school, but that isn't available to all.

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

Otherwise, forcing children to wear a head covering is an involuntary act and not a reflection of the child's faith, but the parents.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Either the children have the right to make the choice for themselves, or their parents have the right to make it for them.

Instead of protecting the child's modesty, what you are actually doing is sexualising the child by implying that the child has sexual allurments to cover-up and that the girl's existence as an individual is as a subordinate future wife.

That's your interpretation. The I can't see any of the girls I teach or have taught who wear the hijab growing up to be "nice little submissive wives". They are much more their own, indepenent, people than some of the young women I see around conservative Christian circles.

Some might get that warm-inner-glow of 'tolerance' (tm) and 'diversity' (tm) seeing little muslim girls running around the playground in their hajibs... but they haven't asked the deeper questions regarding the misogyny behind them wearing it.

No more than the misogyny and other prejudice running through the rest of Australian society.

So, if one man could do that... could any denomination, sub-denomination, cult, sect, family or individual change the direction of secular departmental policy that easily?

As the group got smaller it would be increasingly difficult to demonstrate that the change was genuine and not just an attempt to make a stupid political point.

 

[The Bad Templar]

there's rationale for exlusion from the public system. But seriously, a headscarf? Doesn't bother me if the kid wears it, and I don't see why it bothers you.

And christian kids shouldn't be going to church until they're 18 and old enough to make a decision for themselves.

As I said I'm not too bothered about hajibs... just that I believe children should be allow to be children. I went to university with a muslim girl who was given the option not to wear the hajib... I respect her parents for doing that despite the fact they gave her a hard time.

I just see the cultural misogyny and involuntary nature of it.


Your comparison to Christian kids is pretty irrelevant.

As part of my responsibility as a parent, my children are dressed modestly according to community standards which match my own.

My children have never gone to church or Sunday School involuntary and it is a part of their religious, moral and ethic upbringing and our family life in general.

However.....I don't bring my daughters up to believe that they are to be submissive Christian wives for their husbands and that protecting their modesty is for their future role as a subordinate wife.

 

[little_wing]

Your comparison to Christian kids is pretty irrelevant.

No, it's quite apt. You suggested that underage muslim girls shouldn't be practising an aspect of their religion because they weren't old enough to be making an informed decision. I'm just turning that round on you.

 

[The Bad Templar]

I'm just turning that round on you.

Unsuccessfully as the case may be.

 

[little_wing]

Unsuccessfully as the case may be.

Let's analyse your position, shall we?

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

Otherwise, forcing children to wear a head covering is an involuntary act and not a reflection of the child's faith, but the parents.

You are saying that children don't have the capability to make an informed and reasonable decision for themselves. Moreover, you claim that parents should not be able to impose their religious or cultural (you do, after all, believe that the hijab is cultural) beliefs on their children.

When taken out of the context of Islam and hijabs, your position is of course ludicrous. Parents must be able to raise their children as their religion and culture recommend (within the law, of course). You do it, muslims do it, and I will do it. To suggest that parents shouldn't be able to raise their children within reasonable cultural/religious guidelines absolutely decries your stated commitment to personal freedom.

 

[The Bad Templar]

You are saying that children don't have the capability to make an informed and reasonable decision for themselves. Moreover, you claim that parents should not be able to impose their religious or cultural (you do, after all, believe that the hijab is cultural) beliefs on their children.

When taken out of the context of Islam and hijabs, your position is of course ludicrous. Parents must be able to raise their children as their religion and culture recommend (within the law, of course). You do it, muslims do it, and I will do it. To suggest that parents shouldn't be able to raise their children within reasonable cultural/religious guidelines absolutely decries your stated commitment to personal freedom.

Muslim parents should be able to bring their children up in the Islamic faith just as I am bringing mine up in the christian faith.

What I'm saying is that hijabs should be an option for young muslim women who choose to wear them.

Muslim children, in regards to cultural issues like dress, should be brought up in a way which observes the egalitarian society around them. I think most muslims observe this.

Is I've mentioned... it's part of their freedom, I have no problem with it... just mild concern.

I'm not running around ripping the hijabs of the heads of school girls or anything.

 

[ebia]

However.....I don't bring my daughters up to believe that they are to be submissive Christian wives for their husbands and that protecting their modesty is for their future role as a subordinate wife.

Trying to fit your steriotype to the Muslim kids I teach (including those wearing the hijab), I can only laugh.

What I'm saying is that hijabs should be an option for young muslim women who choose to wear them.

Actually, that's not what you said:

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

 

[little_wing]

Is I've mentioned... it's part of their freedom, I have no problem with it... just mild concern.

School-age children shouldn't even be wearing head coverings until they are of an appropriate age to make the decision for themselves (18 or whatever).

Hmmm...

I just think we should basically stay out of their business


Peace

 

[little_wing]

Ebia, I see we picked up on the same contradiction


Anyway guys, I'm going to call it a night. I think we've pretty much exhausted the topic, but of course if it flares up again I probably won't be able to stop myself from jumping in again .

Good-natured debate is good fun, isn't it..

Peace, brothers

 

[ebia]

Muslim children, in regards to cultural issues like dress, should be brought up in a way which observes the egalitarian society around them.

So, on cultural stuff that doesn't matter much (to you) someone must go along with society, but on moral stuff (like, say, discrimination on the basis of sexuality) it's ok to teach what you like?

Sounds back-to-front to me.

 

[The Bad Templar]

Exactly what strawman do you think I attacked?

I was refering to the application of an individual Christian parent's interpretation of scripture not their personal prejudices (sometimes these things can be the same thing).

If not a strawman... the Conservative Christian = bigot analogy was a cheap shot.


Do you also object to affirmative action ie favourable discrimination to minority groups? Surely this also has a social cost.

I'm pleased to hear it.

Why? Have I somehow become worthy?

Is there still a chance for me to achieve ideological purity?

Not exactly taking your own advice, are you.

When you started bringing the tone down... I thought I'd come down here and slum it with you.

What you are promoting isn't equality but jealosy.

Jealous about my freedoms, those of my kids and my fellow Christians.

Now go ahead and justify your purile little statement.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that, just because I chose to display the green party symbol, I somehow represent that party.

Sorry, it's like a red rag to a bull.

That's your interpretation. The I can't see any of the girls I teach or have taught who wear the hijab growing up to be "nice little submissive wives". They are much more their own, indepenent, people than some of the young women I see around conservative Christian circles.

I agree. I've seen the deplorable misuse of 'male headship' and 'female submission' in conservative Christian households and the results.

I've also fought for female equality within the church. It's not just a 'muslim thing'.

It's not my opinion that matters either. It's the opinion of the girls and their parents that matters. It's up to them to decide if their faith requries this dress or not, it's not up to you or me.

I've just read through the Quranic and ahadith injunctions in relation to Islamic modesty requirements... and they are only in reference to women.

So it looks like Big Mo and the clerics are in agreement with me.

The injuctions are cultural, specific to grown women and refer to her adult sexuality and her place in a patriarchal society.

I am still uncomfortable with children being forced to observe a cultural practice which impacts of her future sexuality and entrenchs her firmly in a patriarchal society... but I shall live with it... it is the law.

 

[little_wing]

I agree. I've seen the deplorable misuse of 'male headship' and 'female submission' in conservative Christian households and the results.

I've also fought for female equality within the church. It's not just a 'muslim thing'.

Fair enough.

I've just read through the Quranic and ahadith injunctions in relation to Islamic modesty requirements... and they are only in reference to women.

So it looks like Big Mo and the clerics are in agreement with me.

The injuctions are cultural, specific to grown women and refer to her adult sexuality and her place in a patriarchal society.

I am still uncomfortable with children being forced to observe a cultural practice which impacts of her future sexuality and entrenchs her firmly in a patriarchal society... but I shall live with it... it is the law.

That's interesting. I might give my Koran a bit of a flick-through re: woman and modesty.

I'm uncomfortable with it too--and I know that sometimes it is oppressive. Fundamentally, however, I think the state should stay out of family, and, as you and ebia said, there are plenty of examples of the same sort of stuff in Christian circles.

I'm actually going this time..

 

[ebia]

I was refering to the application of an individual Christian parent's interpretation of scripture not their personal prejudices (sometimes these things can be the same thing).

If not a strawman... the Conservative Christian = bigot analogy was a cheap shot.

Definitely the latter.

Do you also object to affirmative action ie favourable discrimination to minority groups? Surely this also has a social cost.

It's drifting rather a long way off the topic and I'm about to go to bed.

Why? Have I somehow become worthy?

Is there still a chance for me to achieve ideological purity?

When you started bringing the tone down... I thought I'd come down here and slum it with you.

Judging from the previous two comments you need to come down from something/somewhere. Either that or you have me confused with somebody else.

Jealous about my freedoms, those of my kids and my fellow Christians.

"Your kids can't wear the hajib if my kids can't wear a crucifix" isn't about your freedom, it's about petty jealosy.

Sorry, it's like a red rag to a bull.

I can't be bothered to work out the code necessary to wave it in front of you.

I agree. I've seen the deplorable misuse of 'male headship' and 'female submission' in conservative Christian households and the results.

I've also fought for female equality within the church. It's not just a 'muslim thing'.

Ok.

I've just read through the Quranic and ahadith injunctions in relation to Islamic modesty requirements... and they are only in reference to women.

Yep. And, as far as Islam is concerned, I think the usual age that is deemed to apply is 12. (I could be wrong by a year or so.)

 

[The Bad Templar]

So, on cultural stuff that doesn't matter much (to you) someone must go along with society, but on moral stuff (like, say, discrimination on the basis of sexuality) it's ok to teach what you like?

Sounds back-to-front to me.

I probably explained it better in my other post.


I believe that all muslim children in Australia can be brought up in the muslim faith... however I believe that on an issue like modesty... the wider society should be reflected.

I don't believe that a young muslim girl has the capacity to voluntarily submit to a cultural modesty practice which influences her future sexuality and place in a patriarchal society.

In support, the Quranic and ahadith injunctions refer to women and modesty not children.


The issue of Christian schools being able to discriminate due to the fact that a majority of Christian denominations interpret that homosexuality is still a sin... therefore it is an issue of maintaining the scriptural integrity of the faith... not a religious sub-culture (as with the hijabs).