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Does anyone agree with me?

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Heinrich

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Hi all!

This topic about tongues seem to come up every week in the forum.
I just want to add something :)
Don't go to somebody that has never had anything todo with tongues or Holy Spirit or Gifts or Healing or something like that and ask him about it.
I've heard alot of talk about the subject. But what you really need is testimony's. And it is because of testimony that I believe in the fullness of the Holy Spirit (Holy Spirit Baptism) the gifts of the spirit,father & son and praying in tongues as a personal prayer language.

The bible can be interpreted in very different ways. I mean here in South-Africa they taught racism to be correct from the bible for a few decades. :-D
I hope you understand my point..
If you've read a book on driving a car it doesn't mean you can drive a car. If you read all the scriptures about it in the bible about prayer in tongues it doesn't mean you're talking in tongues :)

Further about the topic of women as pastors ect.
I believe no-one should be a pastor if he/she is not called. If God calls you to be a evangelist/pastor/teacher ect. Then "Sorry God I am female" is not a valid excuse!

May God (& the Holy Spirit in particular) bless you abundantely!

-Heinrich
 
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Follower of Christ too

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A scripture just came to me while reading this forum. Acts 18 vs 24-28....If you read this you will see Aquila and Priscilla together expounded the way of God more perfectly. This demonstrates Priscilla a woman teaching the word as well as Aquilla..Another point here is Apollos, instructed in the way of the Lord and fervent in the spirit, yet he was lacking something- the baptism of the Holy Ghost!
 
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Hidden in Christ

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Follower of Christ too said:
A scripture just came to me while reading this forum. Acts 18 vs 24-28....If you read this you will see Aquila and Priscilla together expounded the way of God more perfectly. This demonstrates Priscilla a woman teaching the word as well as Aquilla..Another point here is Apollos, instructed in the way of the Lord and fervent in the spirit, yet he was lacking something- the baptism of the Holy Ghost!

The one point I would like to bring up here is that "they took him unto them." I assume this means that they brought him to their home, which is where they expounded the things of God to him as part of their family ministry. Priscilla did not stand up in the synagogue and preach to him, or at least that's not what the passage seems to say from my understanding.
 
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Follower of Christ too

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Hidden in Christ said:
The one point I would like to bring up here is that "they took him unto them." I assume this means that they brought him to their home, which is where they expounded the things of God to him as part of their family ministry. Priscilla did not stand up in the synagogue and preach to him, or at least that's not what the passage seems to say from my understanding.
I see what you are saying, but on the other hand didn't the early disciples have church in thier own homes? In 1 Corinthians 16 vs 19 speaks of thier church.
 
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Hidden in Christ

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Follower of Christ too said:
I see what you are saying, but on the other hand didn't the early disciples have church in thier own homes? In 1 Corinthians 16 vs 19 speaks of thier church.

Yes, but it never says that Priscilla ever preached before a congregation. The only indication is that she and her husband together taught Apollos on a one-on-one basis. And even in this case, she was working with her husband, not teaching Apollos on her own. Therefore it could not be said that she was "usurping authority" in any way. Again, I bring I Corinthians 14:34 to the table. This verse seems to be quite straightforward when examined in context.

I am enjoying discussing with you all.
 
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Andrew

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Well, which mighty works do you think they were declaring when they were speaking and every person was understanding them in their own native language? Do you not think salvation, forgiveness and freedom from sin are mighty works of God?

Blessings.

No, in the sense that, as I said, they were not preaching the Gospel in tongues. If they did, there was certainly no altar call and no souls saved. As I mentioned, it was only after Peter preached in his known lang that 3000 people got saved and baptised.

In the NT, Paul and Peter went about preaching the Gospel in their known language, never in tongues. :)
 
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Hidden in Christ

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This brings up another question.

In Acts 2, the multitude that was gathered was out of every nation under heaven. The Bible indicates that they were dwelling at Jerusalem, but it does not say how long they had been there. The question is, 'Had they been there long enough that they were able to understand Hebrew?' If not, Peter preaching in Hebrew would have done nothing for them unless God supernaturally gave these foreigners understanding.

The second thing I would like to point out is this. A careful reading of Peter's sermon implies that he was addressing those who were well vversed in Scripture and in the Jewish religion. He quotes one OT passage after another. Further he seems to be addressing Jews because he says to them that they took Jesus and crucified Him. It was Jews who did that.

I speculate that what was being spoken in tongues was a version of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus that the Gentiles could understand. What do you suppose was being said? Obviously something was being said because the Bible says that they were declaring the mighty works of God.
 
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look

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They spoke in Aramiac...

The Jews took Him, but the Gentiles crucified Him. In other words, they crucified Him, however the crowd were Jews, mostly, on account of the Feast Days.

Could it be that they were praising God for His Mighty works (praising God in the Spirit)?

Just thinking out loud... :)
 
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Follower of Christ too

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Hidden in Christ said:
Yes, but it never says that Priscilla ever preached before a congregation. The only indication is that she and her husband together taught Apollos on a one-on-one basis. And even in this case, she was working with her husband, not teaching Apollos on her own. Therefore it could not be said that she was "usurping authority" in any way. Again, I bring I Corinthians 14:34 to the table. This verse seems to be quite straightforward when examined in context.

I am enjoying discussing with you all.
1 Corinthians 14 vs 34 is on the table a lot:| Just as Paul taught with questions, allowing people to see for themselves the answer, it is also done in 1 Corinthians 14:36
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Hidden in Christ said:
That's the point. Salvation=receiving the Holy Spirit. Romans 8 says "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." So basically saying speaking in tongues is an evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit is the same thing as saying it's an evidence of salvation, right?
Hello HIC,
No, not at all. This is only true if you equate the Spirit of Christ with the Holy Spirit. This is not so. The spirit of Christ comes to us when we are saved. The Holy Spirit comes to us for power at some point afterwards. Even if just is an instant.
 
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pmarquette

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I was attending a pentacostal church who had a woman preach to the congregation that in order to have received the holy spirit you MUST have spoken in tongues.

.........Mark 16.16-20 these signs and wonders will accompany those who believe ; in other epistles - tongues as evidence of baptism of
the spirit ...

Romans 10.14-17 as a side bar to those who were taught that the charism's are over with , of the past , discourage within the body
of that particualar body .... can't ask for what do not know or believe in -- James 4.2-3
 
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Nienna

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Pardon my interference...i don't quite understand what the gift of tongues is for. Some of you say that we should not speak tongues in public without an interpreter, but what about the disciples in acts? how did they know they were to speak in tongues then? wasn't it in public?
Do we speak in tongues to proclaim the wonders of our Almighty God? How is speaking in tongues supposed to edify us when we don't even know what we're talking about? If we proclaim God's power, shouldn't it be in public? Do I sound confused? Because i sure am.
But I do agree with the tongues being over-emphasised bit. I have never actually heard about tongues in my church (maybe because i'm a Methodist) but i went to my friend's charismatic church once and heard people speak in tongues there. I think especially among us younger Christians there is a definite over-emphasis on speaking in tongues. I did feel that i was not as mature in the faith because i did not speak in tongues. And now i'm not even sure if i have the gift of tongues or if i'm deluding myself!
 
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Hidden in Christ

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Nienna said:
Pardon my interference...i don't quite understand what the gift of tongues is for. Some of you say that we should not speak tongues in public without an interpreter, but what about the disciples in acts? how did they know they were to speak in tongues then? wasn't it in public?
Do we speak in tongues to proclaim the wonders of our Almighty God? How is speaking in tongues supposed to edify us when we don't even know what we're talking about? If we proclaim God's power, shouldn't it be in public? Do I sound confused? Because i sure am.

Nienna,
Thank you for your post. Your questions bring out some points that I have been trying to make. I do not know how many people agree with me though.
But as for speaking in tongues in public, yes, they did it in Acts. But in 1 Corinthians, it seems a different approach is taken on the tongues issue. As I said, I believe the instances in Acts were fulfillments of what Jesus said in Mark 16 would be a sign of those who believed the apostles' preaching of the gospel.
But in Corinthians, I believe this purpose for tongues had ceased. These believers had heard the gospel through Paul, Cephas and Apollos. Apollos was not an apostle. So after Acts, tongues does not seem to be an evidence of the Spirit, but rather a gift of the Spirit (among other gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12) for the purpose of edifying Christians. Also in Acts there was never interpretation of tongues. Yet in Corinthians, interpretation is essential. The only time I don't think interpretation is needed today is when someone is speaking to a foreignr in that person's native language. The speaker may not know the language, but the listener does, and the God that is enabling the speaker does. So this is fine.
As for tongues not edifying the speaker b/c they don't know what they're talking about, well that's another issue that I am not sure many people agree with me on. Some seem to think that when God moves on you to speak in tongues, He somehow makes you say things without making you aware of what you're saying. I tend to disagree. I have prayed about this, and God (who is not the author of confusion, but of peace) has told me that if I ever speak in tongues in my prayer closet I will know in my spirit what I am saying, and it will be the same presence of God that has filled my soul so abundantly when I've prayed in English.
Some seem to think that tongues is a mark of a deeper walk with God and more of His Spirit's power, but I don't think that is right. Tongues are a gift, not THE gift.
 
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balloony

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I grew up in a Methodist church and went to a Charismatic Retreat recently. I did not like the Methodist church that I grew up in as the youngsters my age had mostly left the church, and those around my age...I had no affinity with. So you can say that I went for the retreat after a long absence from church/God - hoping to find God again.....

Anyway, the thing that impressed me about Charismatics is the way they praise and worship God. I really think that their way of praise and worship is the genuine way --> The enthusiasm and outpouring of love for God with open arms will touch anyone who attends such sessions. If I'm God, I'll be so touched and impressed by these people worshipping and praising me!

However, the things that bugged me were the tongues emphasis and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It was preached that the tongue is the threshold of all spiritual gifts, once you had it, all other gifts are released. Then again, the speaker said that if you don't receive the gift of tongues, you will still receive other gifts. Now....ain't that contradictory?

The prayer-in-tongue sessions were new to me, and they also had prophesy sessions that were new to me as well. We would be raising our hands up and trying to "lay" our hands above others' heads during these sessions to try to give them the power to pray in tongues or to prophesize. Of course, during these times, most of the people around me would be speaking in tongues! Also, during these times, the word "Peace" keeps going through my head.

During the highlight of the retreat, which was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, we had a group of old Charismatic Christians to come to our retreat. We sat in rows and it began. The speaker kept telling us to relax and sit in any way we like, but I kneeled because I felt I had to! I think that I was the only one that kneeled there! But why must I kneel? Come on, hello, this is the Holy Spirit and God's Presence coming before u, and before this majestic presence, of coz as a sinner, should we not kneel coz we are so unworthy and sinful? Anyway, by kneeling, I could not relax obviously but I chose to continue coz I felt that it was the correct position to be in.

I heard tongues began around me and I continued saying "Hallelujah" and praising the Lord. The speaker always tell us to say "Hallelujah" fast to get our tongue gift....don't ask me why. I waited nervously for my turn to be "laid hands upon", and then a woman came to lay hands on me, telling me to "receive the Spirit". Nothing. I did not speak in tongues. Anyway, we were all told not to open our eyes, so I do not know how this woman looked like. Then, I began hearing laughter and crying around me, but I did not open my eyes. After some time, another woman came to lay hands on me again, but still to no "evoking of my Holy Spirit". By the time the whole thing ended, my legs were so numb due to the shortage of blood supply, I sat on my butt there for a long while looking drained. Around me are people talking in tongues, laughing, crying. Behind me, the Indian guy seemed possessed and he was shaking vigorously as he laid on the ground. The other older ones had to lay hands on him to help him. It was quite serious as his belly was shaking like crazy along with the rest of his body. A old guy was kind enough to come up to me to ask me if I needed help, and he helped me up. During the debrief for this baptism, people described being taken away by angels and trembling on the ground. There was also laughter and crying. A guy saw the vision of the devil. Anyway, after everything, I did not feel anything and I wondered why. Before this, I had prayed to God asking that if this tongue thing and baptism of Holy Spirit thing were the correct way to Him, I hope that he would open my mind, heart and soul to these experiences. But I felt nothing during these times, and did not gain the gift of tongue. Most importantly, I think that it was because I did not want the gift, as I was not sure if this path was the correct one to take.

After the retreat finished, I went to do research on the Internet and also read the Bible to look for answers. It seems to me that Corinthians did tell us that we should seek the gift of prophesy rather than tongues, as prophesy edifies the church while tongues edifies the self. If we were to follow the path of Jesus, shouldn't we put others before self, and seek something that will edify others rather than self? Of course, I'm not saying that edifying self is not good, but until now, I still don't want the gift of tongues. You see, what's the point of praying to God when you don't even know what you are praying about or for?

The older people at the retreat told me that when we pray in tongues, our Holy Spirit is praying for the needy and poor elsewhere. Yet, what's the point of letting the spirit do the talking when you can do it? If you don't understand what you are praying about, everytime you just talk in tongue and let the Spirit "think" for you, won't that cultivate only the soul and not the mind? The Bible did state that praying/speaking in tongues only cultivates the soul and not the mind. Without the cultivation of the mind, we will be useless Christians. Why? So what if we are so cultivated in our souls but not our mind? We do not force ourselves to think as much anymore, and that will cause us to be unable to understand God's Word and Life itself, because our minds are not cultivated enough to understand them. If there is no understanding, how can we be instruments of God to help Mankind? How can we understand our purpose on Earth, and what do God want us to do to help him save the sinners? I've constantly searched for answers, and until now, I'm still in doubt.
 
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Nienna

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Hidden in Christ, thank you for your reply. I think in speaking tongues one has to exercise discretion and trust in the Spirit.
Balloony, i have the same questions as you. It disturbs me that some churches seem to place so much emphasis on tongues. I was prayed for when I went to a Charismatic church, too, but I didn't recieve the gift of tongues then and even now, i'm not sure if i have it or if i'm really babbling nonsense. I don't see the point in having the gift of tongues. I don't know what to do if i have the gift.
 
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TheRickster

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When you pray in tongues you are praying the mysteries that God has hidden and ordained for our glory to raise us up from our stinkin thinkin and build us up on our most Holy Faith... literally the Holy Spirit is praying through you the very word of God...
1 Cor 2
1 Cor 14
Rom 8
Jude 20
Plus many many more if you are interested in knowing why or what you are praying :)

Merry Christmas Everyone!!! Let the Love shine through!!!


corrected type-o
 
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