Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

rikerjoe said:

Really? I guess you only have one then, since life expectancy is more than 80 years in 31 countries! The top one is 89.68 years! (Monaco)

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In 2010 the average life expectancy of men was 67.5 years, women was 73.3 years.

oldwiseguy said:

In 2010 the average life expectancy of men was 67.5 years, women was 73.3 years.

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Where? And what does this mean?

oldwiseguy said:

In 2010 the average life expectancy of men was 67.5 years, women was 73.3 years.

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Try 48.6 years for the average life expectancy in the United States.

Joshua0 said:

Not really, they usually spend five or ten minutes on skeptics and scoffers dot com and they think that makes them an expert.

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Actually quite a few of the atheists I've met actually cared enough about "faith" to study it closely.

In the US since the vast majority of people are Christian it would be extremely difficult to grow up in a "religion-free" household. So I would hazard a guess that many atheists started off with the "religion meme" in their heads from a very early age.

What seems to be somewhat common among atheists is that they tend to look very closely at the religion they inherited and try to figure out if it is a fit.

As such many atheists tend to be very well versed in theology.

NOW, that being said, one must remember that just because someone doesn't get into your particular sect of Christianity doesn't mean they are completely unfamiliar with "God" or Christianity.

This is a conceit many Christians carry, especially the more "Fundamentalist".

They feel that since they know the real and true mind of God unlike all the other apostate Christian sects , that anyone who doesn't believe their particular sect's particular sub-sub-sub-rules is obviously wholly ignorant of TRUE CHRISTIANITY.

The enemy has come to steal, kill and destroy. He is the father of lies and he is able to teach lies to those that are deceived.

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Think about what many atheists go through in their lives. They fear that they have deceived themselves by believing in something they really don't "feel". So they study their faith. They are working very hard to understand their reality as they perceive it. They can do no other. No one can.

So just telling someone they are "decieved" by a supernatural evil being is probably not going to carry much weight.

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10

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This is good in so far as it goes. Christianity and in fact all religions serve a positive purpose in many people's lives. It brings comfort and it helps to moderate our extremes. In some people. In others it is little more than a chance to dominate others by dint of their superior "relationship" to the TRUE God.

But religion and faith can bring lots of good to people. But for some people it can also bring pain and suffering of a variety of sorts.

Tomk80 said:

Where? And what does this mean?

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This is a global average, which is what the psalmist was referring to. Of course there are exceptions. We all don't die at the stoke of midnight on our eightieth birthday.

oldwiseguy said:

This is a global average, which is what the psalmist was referring to. Of course there are exceptions. We all don't die at the stoke of midnight on our eightieth birthday.

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In other words, this does not support your contention of genes limiting old age at all.

The average, global life expectancy is not determined by a gene for old age, but by living circumstances. This becomes clear as soon as you look at country specific life expectancies.

Joshua0 said:

Not really, they usually spend five or ten minutes on skeptics and scoffers dot com and they think that makes them an expert. The enemy has come to steal, kill and destroy. He is the father of lies and he is able to teach lies to those that are deceived. "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." John 10:10

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Nope, studies show that the average atheist knows more about the Bible and religion in general than most Christians.


Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious : The Two-Way : NPR

AV1611VET said:

So? what's your point?

Was that meant to negate mine?

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Of course your post was wrong.

Do you even need to ask?

gradyll said:

My whole argument lies in the fact that the telephone game line of reasoning regarding story telling is in effect here.

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The writers of Genesis seemd to have faithfully plagarized the Sumerian flood myth, only changing the name of the main characters and the name of the gods.

The original and oldest account of the flood is in fact the ancient hebrew one.

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Then we are going to need to see a copy of Genesis that predates the Enuma Elis:

Enûma Eliš - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Loudmouth said:

The writers of Genesis seemd to have faithfully plagarized the Sumerian flood myth, only changing the name of the main characters and the name of the gods.

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Are you an expert on Sumerian history now? Do you translate the text yourself or do you depend on someone else to do that?

AV1611VET said:

I didn't read it, and I have no intention of doing so.

It was probably written from a scientific standpoint ... meaning scientists are vindicating scientists.

Romans 2:15b ... and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

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Typically, you are imposing your own personally pleasing fantasy onto an area of ignorance, in this case deliberate ignorance, so you are quite deliberately choosing a fantasy over finding out what actually happened. Don't you even notice yourself doing this, or is it something you do unconsciously through habit?

Joshua0 said:

Are you an expert on Sumerian history now? Do you translate the text yourself or do you depend on someone else to do that?

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Odds are that he relied on experts to translate it. By linking to sources that can be traced back to experts his post has more credibility than if he claimed he translated the works himself.

Peer review is everywhere and it is what makes various works reliable. Groups that avoid peer review convict themselves of having something to hide.

Subduction Zone said:

Peer review is everywhere and it is what makes various works reliable. Groups that avoid peer review convict themselves of having something to hide.

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Without wading into the entire discussion, I agree with this comment.

Christians should never have any reason to suppress factual information, or support a given idea even when it becomes illogical to do so.

Science is based on observation and experimentation, which is then used to support the explanation of a given phenomena.

However, just like a Christian who reads the Bible and draws certain inferences, a scientist's explanation of a certain phenomena is only an interpretation. To be sure, sometimes the interpretation by either a Christian or a scientist is pretty irrefutable; however, all too often throughout history, human beings have demonstrated their fallibility by accepting as absolute fact matters that then turn out to be incorrect interpretations.

So we always need to recognize our fallibility and be cautious about accepting absolutes. That doesn't mean we need to have reservations about fundamental matters of faith- but in matters to do with science, we shouldn't confuse scientific interpretation with faith.

Ultimately, when all the facts are in, I am convinced as a Christian that there will be no conflict between what we see in God's creation, and how science believes that creation came to be.

Joshua0 said:

Are you an expert on Sumerian history now? Do you translate the text yourself or do you depend on someone else to do that?

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But by the same token, does anyone have the original documentation of the Noachian Flood? The original written version, probably in ancient Hebrew?

If we wish to go back to the best "primary source material" then we have in front of us the most wonderful and well-written book of earth history: The Rocks.

The history of the earth, unlike a written story by people, cannot be other than what it was. It can't be plagiarized, it can't be re-written. It can't be falsified in any way.

How do we interpret this book? By studying how rocks form, by learning the details of sedimentology, stratigraphy, petrology, mineralogy, paleontology.

If one doesn't learn to read the rocks in the language they clearly speak in, one may as well be trying read cuneiform script without any prior knowledge of it.

When rocks are your friends, you're never far from a friend!

Joshua0 said:

Are you an expert on Sumerian history now? Do you translate the text yourself or do you depend on someone else to do that?

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Do you doubt the experts who have dated the Enuma Elis, and the experts who agree that the Enuma Elis is older than Genesis?

Loudmouth said:

Do you doubt the experts who have dated the Enuma Elis, and the experts who agree that the Enuma Elis is older than Genesis?

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I do not doubt that the Hebrews were not the first to have written language. For example the Code of Hammurabi came before we received the law from Moses. There were two different people living in Mesopotamia at the time of Adam and Eve 6,000 years ago. There were two different languages spoken and some of the people at the time were bilingual.

Loudmouth said:

The writers of Genesis seemd to have faithfully plagarized the Sumerian flood myth, only changing the name of the main characters and the name of the gods.



Then we are going to need to see a copy of Genesis that predates the Enuma Elis:

Enûma Eliš - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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well in order to state the myth is in fact older we would have to date the original writing. For one. Secondly your Enuma Elish is probably related to the epic of gilgamesh a more ancient and more complete record of the flood (as both have a 7 day duration of the flood, which would not kill off the earth via raining), it would have to be an ocean flood, and the likelyhood seven days of rain would raise water tables to flood is unlikely. So my theory is that both are actually plaigerizing the Bible's ancient hebrew account. While the original dating of the manuscripts declare gilgamesh as the oldest, it is still unknown where the original writing date occured. The most complete form of gilgamesh is newer than Biblical hebrew MSS. However the partial MSS are older. So we can't go by the dates of things, we need to go by the completeness of the story. Thirdly, the writtings of the ancient Hebrew manuscripts are allegedly penned earlier than "the copy" was dated. So we have yet to find an original of gilgamesh or the pentateuch, that was not a copy.

my sources:

Dating of the oldest fragments of the Gilgamesh account originally indicated that it was older than the assumed dating of Genesis.21 However, the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.

A popular theory, proposed by liberal "scholars," said that the Hebrews "borrowed" from the Babylonians, but no conclusive proof has ever been offered.22 The differences, including religious, ethical, and sheer quantity of details, make it unlikely that the Biblical account was dependent on any extant source from the Sumerian traditions. This still does not stop these liberal and secular scholars from advocating such a theory. The most accepted theory among evangelicals is that both have one common source, predating all the Sumerian forms.23 The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version. Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition.24 The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark.25 To those who believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, it should not be a surprise that God would preserve the true account of the Flood in the traditions of His people. The Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses.26 The Epic of Gilgamesh, then, contains the corrupted account as preserved and embellished by peoples who did not follow the God of the Hebrews.


more info:
The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh


Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

gradyll said:

well in order to state the myth is in fact older we would have to date the original writing. For one. Secondly your Enuma Elish is probably related to the epic of gilgamesh a more ancient and more complete record of the flood (as both have a 7 day duration of the flood, which would not kill off the earth via raining), it would have to be an ocean flood, and the likelyhood seven days of rain would raise water tables to flood is unlikely. So my theory is that both are actually plaigerizing the Bible's ancient hebrew account.

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Based on what evidence?

If you are going to claim that all the flood stories originate with the Noah story then shouldn't you have these dates already?

Lucy Stulz said:

But by the same token, does anyone have the original documentation of the Noachian Flood? The original written version, probably in ancient Hebrew?

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We have the book of Gilgamesh where we are told that Gilgamesh wanted to talk to Noah and he did find Noah. The flood was right after Noah's father died. Noah's father would have been alive toward the end of Adams life. So there is a chance that Lamech actually knew Adam. After all he was descended from Adam. When I was younger we use to have family reunions where we would get as many people together as we could find and contact.

Also God has the ability to actually take people back in time, so they can see these events. Not the physical body of course. Our soul and spirit does have the ability to go forward and back in time. I have had dreams about the future. I had a dream about my first wife and her sister before I met them. Maybe it was a warning to stay away from her. Still I saw a person that I was going to meet in my future.