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Does a GLOBAL FLOOD truly seem like the BEST explanation for seashells on mountains?

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Split Rock

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I don't know what may have been different in the atmospheric conditions unless there was simply a lack of water vapor, but there were no rainbows prior to the flood.

Nonsense. The laws of physics are what they are. The reference to a rainbow is clearly symbolic.

The Scriptures ARE reality. This world is a construct.
Wow. No wonder you guys post stuff that makes it seem like you worship the bible instead of God. The bible is a work of Man. Written by men, transcribed by men, translated into different languages by men and interpreted by men.


Nonsense. You can't find evidence of something that didn't happen, and you can't ascribe physical reactions to a supernatural event. Moreover, you can't do a pre-flood and post-flood analysis of the earth because you weren't there.

Sure we can. The past leaves its mark on the present. The history of the planet is written in its very rocks.

Because you believe the interpretations of man over the word of God. It's not supposed to be possible. Miracles aren't.
You believe your interpertation of scripture over your god's creation.


The Scriptures are not Aesop's Fables.

They sure do read like them in some of its books, though... don't they?

You of little faith. God's word doesn't match your perceptions of reality so God's word must be wrong?

Your interpretation of God's Word doesn't match our understanding of reality, so our understanding of reality must be wrong?

God doesn't lie, but men do. Lack of faith leads men to make assumptions based on the belief that there is no God. It doesn;t make those assumptions correct.
The record of the planet is what it is, regardless of one's belief in God. Your assumptions concerning interpreting scripture is where the problem lies... not in our understanding of earth's history.


Anytime I read someone refer to "simply" interpreting scripture, they always wind up drawing the wrong conclusions from it. There is nothing "simple" in the bible. It is especially a bad idea to ignore the intent of the writers and the audience they were writing for. It is also a mistake to assume they wrote it for 21st century American Christians who assume that history was treated in the past the same as it is nowadays.

You can certainly find some answers in the planet's rocks. This includes its history, and its age.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Then what's up with this remark?

You sound like you're contradicting yourself.

I don't see why you say that. In what you call God's creation there is a vast amount of evidence to support evolution. The whole of the natural world supports it, if you want to say it like that instead, but as I told you, I was using your terminology so you could better understand what I was saying.
 
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AV1611VET

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Is this supposed to be the same universe that ...

Psalm 19:1a The heavens declare the glory of God;

If you don't see the heavens declaring the glory of God, why are you harping that I don't see evolution?
 
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KWCrazy

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Anytime religion keeps someone from seeing a broader creation other than what was written by another man, that person has blinders on.
I don't pretend that the writings of man are accurate. The Bible is the inspired word of God.
I never said that creation is greater than God..The more I find out about the processes involved,the greater God gets.
Conversely, the more you pay attention to the teaching of man, the more you reject the teaching of God. How great can God truly be if you consider Him to have lied when He said He created the universe in six days?
Exodus 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Jesus even affirmed the story of Jonah, which I supposeyou believe to be mythology.
Matthew 12:40
For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Where is the physical evidence of a global flood?
There is plenty of evidence of a flood, just no physical proof. The evidence is interpreted differently by people who look at it from a different world view. God doesn't provide proof. We are to come to Him by faith, remember?
I'm not contesting John 1..if I were contesting that passage,I would be saying that there is no God in the first place.period.
You are denying what is written in the word. The fact that you are unable to provide passages to support your assertions affirms what we both know; that what you are claiming is contrary to what the Scriptures teach.
The way you worded your response,you most certainly were close to telling me that I am not a "proper" Christian,because I don't look at Genesis the same way that you do.
Again, if you have any passages of Scripture to buoy your claims, by all means post them. I've read dozens of people if not hundreds who indignantly proclaim a faith they cannot defend. Amazingly, nobody seems to be able to do so. It should be the easiest thing in the world to do.
reminds me of the preacher that told me that if I didn't believe like he did and didn't worship the same way,I was going straight to Hell.
That's not for us to judge. However, if you reject God's word and side with the atheists that it's all mythology, I'm sure you will have to justify that eventually. Hopefully, though, you'll begin an in-depth study of the Scriptures for passages to prove me wrong and in the mean time find, as I did, that no such passages exist. However if you find some, please share.
You just did it again..telling me that my "claims" are false.
When you claim things that are contradicted by the Scriptures, either you are wrong or the word of God is. Since I believe that Jesus was correct regarding the veracity of the Scriptures, I tend to believe the word of God.
Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If you can do what nobody before you has been able to do and post a few passages from the Scriptures to support your claims, then perhaps you have an argument for your position. If you cannot, then you do not.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Is this supposed to be the same universe that ...

Psalm 19:1a The heavens declare the glory of God;

If you don't see the heavens declaring the glory of God, why are you harping that I don't see evolution?

I thought you did see evolution, you just attribute it to the devil. But yes, it's the same universe that inspires amazement in us all. You choose to attribute your amazement to an additional intangible divinity that atheists don't, but it's the same one.
 
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Loudmouth

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I don't pretend that the writings of man are accurate.


The Bible was written by human beings.

The Bible is the inspired word of God.

So writes a human being.

Conversely, the more you pay attention to the teaching of man, the more you reject the teaching of God.

The teachings of the Bible are the teachings of men.

How great can God truly be if you consider Him to have lied when He said He created the universe in six days?

How great can God truly be if you considered Him to have lied when He made the Creation?

There is plenty of evidence of a flood, just no physical proof.

Then there is no evidence for a flood.

The evidence is interpreted differently by people who look at it from a different world view.

But who is right, and how do we determine who is right? Post-modernism really isn't my cup of tea.

God doesn't provide proof. We are to come to Him by faith, remember?

So writes a man.

You are denying what is written in the word.

The Map is not the Territory.

The map is not the territory - Lesswrongwiki

If your Map does not match what we see in reality then we toss the Map, not reality. Your interpretation of the Bible does not match what we see in reality. It is your interpretation of the Bible that is in error, not reality.
 
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Loudmouth

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The whole subject is an open question. Scientific as well as biblical knowledge changes and evolves. News at eleven (year and date to be announced).

The science demonstrating an ancient age of the Earth and a lack of a recent global flood have not changed in 200 years of scientific history. The evidence has only piled up higher and higher in that time. Even in 1831 the evidence so strongly contradicted a global flood that Adam Sedgwick recanted, and he was one of the strongest flood geologists. Again, that was in 1831, nearly 200 years ago.
 
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JoyfulExegesis

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Where does the Bible say that there were no rainbows prior to the flood?


Answer: No such scripture exists in the Bible.

Instead, we find this:

Genesis 9:17:
"And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

So God used a custom of that time (a tangible sign of a contract between two parties) to reassure Noah that he would never again send judgement in the form of a repeat of that year-long flood. God is saying, "Don't worry about living through that again. Whenever I see a rainbow, it will serve as an eternal reminder of our covenant. So as often as you see a rainbow in the sky, you will have a that reassurance."

It says nothing about rainbows never existing before. It was similar to other contract reminders people used at that time. Think of it like a mnemonic device. Sometimes people would take a common object like a walking staff and use it in a ceremony to give it significance as a peace pledge. ("We agree not to war with each other.") Nobody assumed that walking staffs didn't exist prior to that contract (covenant.) But by associating it with an agreement, that common walking staff became a sign of a contract.
 
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KWCrazy

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Answer: No such scripture exists in the Bible.
In full context, Genesis 9:
11 I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.” 12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: 13I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. 14 When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, 15 I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.” 17 God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth.”

Emphasis mine. First. it is clear from the passage that all living flesh not on the ark was destroyed. The flood destroyed the earth and all the flesh on it. It was absolutely not a local event. God said "I have set my bow in the cloud," indicating that it hadn't been there before. It was established as a symbol of the covenant God made. The rainbow is really an unimportant side note, however. The fact is that it could not be more plain that this was a global flood that destroyed every land dwelling thing on the earth that breathed air.

Remember what God said in Genesis 8:21.
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Was God lying?
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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I don't pretend that the writings of man are accurate.


Unless you have evidence to the contrary, the bible was written by men, with contemporary knowledge of the times, edited, copied, redacted, and added to and spanned over two thousand years, and ultimately interpreted by, men.
 
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AV1611VET

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Unless you have evidence to the contrary, the bible was written by men, with contemporary knowledge of the times, edited, copied, redacted, and added to and spanned over two thousand years, and ultimately interpreted by, men.
I think a professional secretary, skilled in the art of amanuensis, could make an excellent point otherwise; and coupled with the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration, brings us to this:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
 
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JoyfulExegesis

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]I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth.

God said "I have set my bow in the cloud," indicating that it hadn't been there before. It was established as a symbol of the covenant God made.

You appear to ignore what comes AFTER your emphasis. The verse neither states nor implies that a rainbow had never occurred before. You appear to "prove" your point by simply restating it as fact! Can't you at least provide some kind of EVIDENCE for your position that rainbows were "new" to the earth?

Indeed, I'm amazed how often my brethren come up with these tradition-based assertions and then even suggest that the laws of physics somehow changed---all so that their extra-biblical tradition can be somehow made to make sense!

At "the last supper" Jesus establish the bread and the wine as symbols of "my flesh" and "my blood". Did bread and wine exist prior to having that symbolic significance? So why do you believe rainbows were any different?

For that matter, do you think circumcision had never existed as a custom before Abraham was told that it would be a covenantal sign? (I don't take a strong side either way on that one. Just curious.)

As to whether the rainbow being a minor side-issue, I was saying it was or wasn't. You had made the assertion that rainbows had never appeared prior to their having covenant significance and I merely observed that there was ZERO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT for that position. And I even quoted the same passage you did to point out its absence. Yet, to make you point, you simply quoted the same passage and somehow "extracted" the imagined fact from the text. You'll have to do better than that! The fact that God "set his bow in the clouds" says NOTHING about whether the rainbow had existed before. (Some might even argue that the personal pronoun "his" implies that Noah was familiar with God's rainbow and this casual reference to it underscored that fact!) In fact, I would find your argument much more persuasive if God had said in the text: "Noah, what you are seeing in the sky is called a rainbow. From now on you will be seeing this in some rain conditions, before, during, and/or after precipitation. I created this new phenomenon as a sign of our covenant."

You appear to confuse a RESTATEMENT of your position as if such interpretations constitute EVIDENCE of your positions.

But in this case you are making the unbiblical claim that if Noah and his predecessors had sprayed water into the air in a fine mist on a sunny day, light would have failed to refract to create prismatic colors. To do so, you would have to make claims about the index of refraction which would render Noah and his predecessors effectively blind. After all, how could the lens of an eye operate where the physics of light defies the focusing of light?

I find that the creationist tendency to favor tradition over what the Bible actually says often leads them into destroying their own arguments. Just as you have done here.


] The fact is that it could not be more plain that this was a global flood that destroyed every land dwelling thing on the earth that breathed air.

If it is so "plain", why do so many scholars who read Hebrew point out that the Genesis text says nothing about a global flood?

And why do they also deny your claim that "every land dwelling thing on the PLANET earth that breathed air" was destroyed? As you surely know, everyone agrees that this statement applied to the ERETZ (the land) but not to the PLANET EARTH. [See, I can use the same rhetoric you use. "It could not say so more plainly!"] Indeed, if the Hebrew text had intended to refer to ALL lands of the planet earth, ERETZ would have been in the plural! But it was not!

(Yes, Strong's Concordance claims that ERETZ means "planet earth" in some contexts. Yet Strong's merely reflects the biases of the KJV---because it a KJV reference tool!---which virtually everywhere EXCEPT the early chapters of Genesis consistently translates ERETZ as "land", "country", "region", "wilderness" as well as "soil", "ground", etc. Isn't that interesting! Indeed, the KJV statistics are one of the best arguments for the fact that even those translators realized that ERETZ meant "land". That was their choice the vast majority of the time in the OT.)

I'm curious, when Genesis also says that people from every nation journeyed to Egypt to buy food during the famine, do you consistently and literally interpret that to mean that people from Japan, South Africa, Panama, and Hawaii trekked to buy grain from Joseph?

And when Peter preached his sermon on Pentecost to men from every nation who had come to Jerusalem, did his audience include Aztec Indians from America and Chinese Jews?

Or are you SELECTIVE about when you interpret words like "all" and "every"---and only take them literally when they reinforce your favorite traditions?



Why are you questioning whether God lied? God did NOT promise "to never again strike down every living creature". No, he promised to not do so "as I have done"! You have a habit of cutting God's statements short in order to make your case. And in doing so, you reveal your bias and your refusal to let the text speak for itself. God included the "as I have done" to make clear that (1) he was NOT saying that he would never again render judgment on a massive scale, (2) but he WAS saying that he would not repeat that particular kind of year long flood of Noah's ERETZ and thereby destroy all NEPHESH life within the ERETZ.

In fact, we already established that if God had wished to say that ALL LANDS were subject to the watery judgment, he could have used ERETZ in the plural, as the Biblical text does in other contexts when a much large geographic area was the intention!
 
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AV1611VET

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Is the creaition lying when it gives us false evidence?
You mean, like when it gives you too little information -- like Pluto; or too much information -- like how we got our moon?
 
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Split Rock

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There is plenty of evidence of a flood, just no physical proof. The evidence is interpreted differently by people who look at it from a different world view. God doesn't provide proof. We are to come to Him by faith, remember?

Oh great, the same old PRATT list featuring Mt ST Helens and polystrate fossils! It isn't a different interpretation, its facts vs. lies and misinformation promoted by liars. The reason these "Creation Ministry" websites continue to lie and get away with it, is because people like you have no qualm accepting lies if they taste sweet. There was NOTHING like the Grand Canyon created by the St. Helens eruption... no limestone, no sandstone... just mud and ash.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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I think a professional secretary, skilled in the art of amanuensis, could make an excellent point otherwise; and coupled with the doctrine of verbal plenary inspiration, brings us to this:
[/COLOR]

Yeah, well, it didn't work out so well for them, which brings us to this: no original mss, ample evidence of editing, and adding to.
 
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Loudmouth

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You mean, like when it gives you too little information -- like Pluto; or too much information -- like how we got our moon?

I mean like the radiometric dating which shows that the Moon is billions of years old. Why did God plant these lies in the rocks?
 
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AV1611VET

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Yeah, well, it didn't work out so well for them, which brings us to this: no original mss, ample evidence of editing, and adding to.
Good -- then I'll go ahead and treat the King James Bible like It's an original.

Fair enough? or do you want to change your story now?
 
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