Does ‘willful sinning’ threaten my salvation?

Sabertooth

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Could you explain how John 15:1-8 teaches "continued refusal to repent" threatens a person's salvation?
Salvation-by-persistence?
I see fruitfulness/Salvation by persistence in John 15 and many other verses in Scripture. God does all of the heavy lifting, but we still must be present.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, but they still are a yoke and a burden.

I can add nothing new to the OSAS/Conditional Preservation of the Saints debate. (And, I suspect, neither can you.)
 
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Aussie Pete

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In the same way that when all else fails, read the instructions - the same can be said that when confused, just take the time to read the Bible!

The Bible is very simple and straightforward in what it says. The problem is that some seem to think that there is some sort of mystical "subtext" to the Bible and that's what they look for instead of just reading and understanding the text as it is written. The result is that they read stuff into the Bible that is not actually written there.
Yes and no. It seems to me that the Word is simple to the simple but confusion to those who have to analyse everything. We have the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. Too many Christians think it their obligation to turn the Bible into a handbook for Christian living. That was never God's intent. If it was, He would have laid it out as such. The written word should lead us to the "Living Word", Lord Jesus.

The other issue is that people love to argue. I have to watch myself because I can get too involved in discussions that lead nowhere.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I see fruitfulness/Salvation by persistence in John 15 and many other verses in Scripture. God does all of the heavy lifting, but we still must be present.

His yoke is easy and His burden is light, but they still are a yoke and a burden.

I can add nothing new to the OSAS/Conditional Preservation of the Saints debate. (And, I suspect, neither can you.)
*sigh* when people realise that there are two salvations, the disagreements will evaporate. People are arguing about two different things.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Yes and no. It seems to me that the Word is simple to the simple but confusion to those who have to analyse everything. We have the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. Too many Christians think it their obligation to turn the Bible into a handbook for Christian living. That was never God's intent. If it was, He would have laid it out as such. The written word should lead us to the "Living Word", Lord Jesus.

The other issue is that people love to argue. I have to watch myself because I can get too involved in discussions that lead nowhere.
The character of the Bible is that it is simple so that a child can understand the basic message of it ("except ye become as little children you cannot enter the kingdom of God"), but it is complex to the degree that the most astute Bible scholar can spend a lifetime mining the golden nuggets out of it.

One of the big problems for unconverted people trying to understand the Bible is that it says that "the natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned".
 
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Al Touthentop

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Yes and no. It seems to me that the Word is simple to the simple but confusion to those who have to analyse everything. We have the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth. Too many Christians think it their obligation to turn the Bible into a handbook for Christian living. That was never God's intent. If it was, He would have laid it out as such. The written word should lead us to the "Living Word", Lord Jesus.

The other issue is that people love to argue. I have to watch myself because I can get too involved in discussions that lead nowhere.

The Holy Spirit's guidance for us IS the bible. He inspired the authors to write it and drove the early church to copy it and spread it around.
 
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Al Touthentop

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The character of the Bible is that it is simple so that a child can understand the basic message of it ("except ye become as little children you cannot enter the kingdom of God"), but it is complex to the degree that the most astute Bible scholar can spend a lifetime mining the golden nuggets out of it.

One of the big problems for unconverted people trying to understand the Bible is that it says that "the natural man cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned".

This though is speaking of the way in which it is read, not in some special change in a person's basic construction after becoming a Christian. Even Christians can read every passage and take it literally.
 
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Aussie Pete

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The Holy Spirit's guidance for us IS the bible. He inspired the authors to write it and drove the early church to copy it and spread it around.
And the Bible says that we need the Holy Spirit. If every Christian relied on the Holy Spirit to make God's word real to them, we would not be arguing about trivialities that have no bearing on our relationship with God.
John 16:13
"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you."
 
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Phil W

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Whoops we all just lost our salvation...
The scripture says that those claiming they do not sin are deceived...
1 Jn 1:8
if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…
Can't you see that John is talking about two very different kinds of men and two very different kinds of walk?
Some of the 1 John 1 verses deal with those walking in darkness-sin and others deal with those walking in the light-God.
Those who cannot say they have no sin are those not walking in the light-God.
Others who are walking in the light-God HAVE had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ.
Why can't they say it?
Of course it is incumbent on us to remain in the light after we have been cleansed.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Can't you see that John is talking about two very different kinds of men and two very different kinds of walk?
Some of the 1 John 1 verses deal with those walking in darkness-sin and others deal with those walking in the light-God.
Those who cannot say they have no sin are those not walking in the light-God.
Others who are walking in the light-God HAVE had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ.
Why can't they say it?
Of course it is incumbent on us to remain in the light after we have been cleansed.

I don't agree with this interpretation. I don't advocate sinless perfection as a condition of salvation.
 
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Phil W

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I don't agree with this interpretation.
Everyone has their own opinion.

I don't advocate sinless perfection as a condition of salvation.
Do you advocate loving God above all else and your neighbor as yourself?
 
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This though is speaking of the way in which it is read, not in some special change in a person's basic construction after becoming a Christian. Even Christians can read every passage and take it literally.
To be able to make the distinction between narrative, poetic, prophetic, and instructional, a good grounding in Hebrew language and literature would be an asset. However, some knowledge of basic literary styles is always a help. Much of the Bible is basic narrative, and so can be taken literally. Either we believe that the narrative parts of the Bible are true or not. Then there is the poetic which contains metaphor, simile, irony, word pictures, descriptions, emotional utterances, and so on. The prophetic books can contain a mixture of poetic and narrative, as well as prediction. The instructional is found in the law sections, and the letters of the Apostles.

So, there are parts of the Bible that are history, and are just as valid historical accounts as any other history. The OT historical narratives show how Israel came into being, how it developed over time, and how it ultimately failed because of idolatry. There is no subtext in any of the narratives. What you see is what you get.

But the poetic and prophetic are different, they take a bit of study and digging in to find out what these sections are really saying.

Of course the instructional is written directly to those to whom it applies. We just need to work out whether the instructions actually apply to us or not.
 
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Al Touthentop

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To be able to make the distinction between narrative, poetic, prophetic, and instructional, a good grounding in Hebrew language and literature would be an asset. However, some knowledge of basic literary styles is always a help. Much of the Bible is basic narrative, and so can be taken literally. Either we believe that the narrative parts of the Bible are true or not. Then there is the poetic which contains metaphor, simile, irony, word pictures, descriptions, emotional utterances, and so on. The prophetic books can contain a mixture of poetic and narrative, as well as prediction. The instructional is found in the law sections, and the letters of the Apostles.

So, there are parts of the Bible that are history, and are just as valid historical accounts as any other history. The OT historical narratives show how Israel came into being, how it developed over time, and how it ultimately failed because of idolatry. There is no subtext in any of the narratives. What you see is what you get.

But the poetic and prophetic are different, they take a bit of study and digging in to find out what these sections are really saying.

Of course the instructional is written directly to those to whom it applies. We just need to work out whether the instructions actually apply to us or not.

I agree with you for the most part. Paul said that those reading could understand. To place emphasis on supernatural indwelling of the spirit as if it is some sort of alternative to scripture or as if it allows us to be slack in our study is dangerous. I've had a lot of people tell me that my understanding of scripture is wrong because "the Holy Spirit told me it means this."

The Holy Spirit would never have us arguing over the words he delivered to the apostles and authors of the New Testament.

I'm not accusing you of doing that. But I am just saying I consider that the way the Holy Spirit guides today's Christians into all truth is through the scripture he inspired.
 
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Al Touthentop

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And the Bible says that we need the Holy Spirit. If every Christian relied on the Holy Spirit to make God's word real to them, we would not be arguing about trivialities that have no bearing on our relationship with God.
John 16:13
"However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you."

Now, he was talking specifically talking to his apostles there. But he DID give us the guidance we need by providing us scripture. The word is real (living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword) and our diligence in studying it, is itself to honor the Holy Spirit's purpose. Paul wrote specifically that a person can fill himself with the spirit by knowing it and keeping it.
 
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Carl Emerson

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There it is again...

Heb 4:12

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You have assumed that this 'word of God' is a reference to scripture rather than God's living word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Look at verse 13...

13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If it was scripture it would not be addressed as He...
 
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Aussie Pete

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Now, he was talking specifically talking to his apostles there. But he DID give us the guidance we need by providing us scripture. The word is real (living and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword) and our diligence in studying it, is itself to honor the Holy Spirit's purpose. Paul wrote specifically that a person can fill himself with the spirit by knowing it and keeping it.
The exhortation is to "be being filled" with the Spirit, i.e. a continual filling. There is no time that we do not need the Lord Jesus to be our life, in the Person of His Holy Spirit. The Living Word, Christ, is far superior to the written word. Depending on the written word and mental understanding is what has brought the church to the disgraceful state that it's in now.

Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. It's not often I agree with an unbeliever, but he got that right. I know the Bible reasonably well, and I teach it. I also am well aware that the "letter kills" but "the Spirit gives life".
 
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Carl Emerson

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Einstein also said this...

"No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life..."

The scripture and the living Word of God is a powerful combination.

It would not surprise me at all if he was a secret believer.
 
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Al Touthentop

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The exhortation is to "be being filled" with the Spirit, i.e. a continual filling. There is no time that we do not need the Lord Jesus to be our life, in the Person of His Holy Spirit. The Living Word, Christ, is far superior to the written word. Depending on the written word and mental understanding is what has brought the church to the disgraceful state that it's in now.

Paul equated being filled with the spirit to letting the word (scripture) dwell in you and he explained that the way one did that was to be obedient to that word. They are not different things.

Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. It's not often I agree with an unbeliever, but he got that right. I know the Bible reasonably well, and I teach it. I also am well aware that the "letter kills" but "the Spirit gives life".

The Spirit lives in the words. Even those words on parchment.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Einstein also said this...

"No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life..."

The scripture and the living Word of God is a powerful combination.

It would not surprise me at all if he was a secret believer.

The scripture is the living word of God.
 
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Al Touthentop

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There it is again...

Heb 4:12

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

You have assumed that this 'word of God' is a reference to scripture rather than God's living word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Look at verse 13...

13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If it was scripture it would not be addressed as He...

Verse 13 is referring to God, not scripture. It is not equating God with the word itself as expressed in the previous verse. The Holy Spirit was responsible for Paul writing those words. All of the scripture is God's word. It's not a lesser form of God's word.
 
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