Doctrines of the so-called schismatic/heretic Martin Luther

[Edward65]

I myself think that Martin Luther had some good ideas - but in the dark ages he was viewed as a schismatic and a heretic by the supposedly "infallible" sources in power during those dark ages.

Today some of his ideas are still held to be heretical/unchristian/unorthodox according to some folks (even on this very board)

Here is a quote from wikipedia on Martin Luther (not sure it will be tolerated on GT).

" During the Reformation the German reformer Martin Luther was among notable advocates of conditional immortality, which prompted the French reformer John Calvin to criticize him for embracing the doctrine of "soul sleep."

Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

R.C. Sproul has stated that he himself accepts the "Gramatico Historical" method of interpreting the Bible - and so also (he claims) did Martin Luther.

So not everyone has declared Luther's views to be heretical and schismatic -- though I don't think that Sproul also agrees with Luther on either the point of "soul sleep" OR the point of "conditional immortality" as mentioned in the wikipedia article above.

This thread will focus on the doctrines of Luther ( "the heretic" as some apparently prefer to think of him.)

Is it not surprising that there are still those within the Christian church that will think of the doctrine of Luther as heretical or schismatic or shall we say "unorthodox"??

I don’t understand why the Wikipedia article you referred to says that Luther believed in conditional immortality, because if what is meant by this is that Luther didn’t believe in the existence of an eternal hell in which the souls of men continued in a state of perpetual suffering then that is simply untrue. Luther definitely held that the souls of those who weren’t saved weren’t annihilated but continued in a never-ending existence.

Whilst Luther referred to Christ saving Christians from eternal death he didn’t mean that the damned no longer continued to exist, but only that they wouldn’t be with God. Hell is like an eternal death in that the damned are deprived of all the benefits of God’s presence whereas heaven in contrast is life at its fullest in the presence of God.

The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality. Just because a person believes in soul sleep it doesn't follow that he doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Apparently Luther did believe in soul sleep but he also believed in the immortality of the soul.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I stated before that I differ with Luther on some things

Such as the things that actually mattered to Luther, such where he stood on Justification, the right distinction between Law and Gospel, the Sacraments, and so forth.

That Protestants would join with Catholics in banning Luther's doctrines - seems to be without "excuse".

The problem of course is that trying to call soul sleep "Luther's doctrine" is weak at best.

But it seems you want to latch onto his ambiguity on the subject, thrust it to the forefront of what Luther stood for and believed, and then try and appeal to Luther the man as an authority for which "Protestants" ought to revere against "dem ol' Catholics over thar".

The problem with that is two-fold, again:

1) Luther's position is ambiguous and undogmatic, so soul sleep is hardly a significant idea in Luther's theology; rather it's an idea he toys and plays with as he wrestles with and through Scripture. Because Luther wants to let Scripture speak plainly, he wants to consider the weight of Scripture here, and of course Scripture itself says incredibly little about life after death or the condition of the soul after death, Scripture itself remains somewhat ambiguous and nebulous on the subject. Thus we see Luther basically refusing to engage in some sort of dogmatic speculation. He speculates, but curbs his speculations with Scripture and refuses a dogmatic position; and therefore seems to argue both sides at various times.

2) Luther isn't the authority, neither for Protestants generally, or Lutherans specifically. So attempting to use Luther as a kind of appeal to authority fails because Luther isn't the authority on matters theological--Scripture is. Scripture alone is the Rule of Faith, that's what Sola Scriptura means; it governs and proclaims the faith, we hear, receive, and then confess the faith as the Scriptures testify it, and proclaim it for our hearing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Albion]

Whilst Luther referred to Christ saving Christians from eternal death he didn’t mean that the damned no longer continued to exist, but only that they wouldn’t be with God. Hell is like an eternal death in that the damned are deprived of all the benefits of God’s presence whereas heaven in contrast is life at its fullest in the presence of God.

The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality. .

That's pretty much what I thought, too--that Bob wanted to kill two birds with one stone by attempting to tie the one doctrine to the other, which Luther definitely did not do.

 

[BobRyan]

I don’t understand why the Wikipedia article you referred to says that Luther believed in conditional immortality, because if what is meant by this is that Luther didn’t believe in the existence of an eternal hell in which the souls of men continued in a state of perpetual suffering then that is simply untrue.

I too am not sure why they are linking conditional immortality to soul sleep.

But as for Luthers' statement on soul sleep -- another poster on this thread gave the definitive quote.

Those who wish to read "ambiguity" into the following quotes - show us you can do it.

Luther:
[FONT=&quot]"Just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpected when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so shall we suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death."[/FONT]

You can find an anthology of Luther's works called "What Luther says" and under "death" he writes "We Christians, however, who have been redeemed through the precious blood of God's Son should by practice become accustomed in faith to despise death and to look upon it as a deep, sound, sweet sleep, to consider the coffin as nothing but our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing but a soft bed of ease and rest. And indeed, this is just what it is before God; for He says 'Our friend Lazarus sleepeth' [John 11:11], 'The maid is not dead, but sleepeth' [Matt 9:24]"

However, I don't think it is correct to shove Luther's thought into this box and say "aha, this nicely kept doctrine is what he believes"

Here are some more quotes of Luther on death

"We do say: There is a difference between going to sleep and dying, but for Christians, there is in truth, no difference"

"The Fathers called churchyards coemeteria (cemeteries) that is, places in which one sleeps, sleeping quarters, where Christians are buried, and I wish they were still so called. So Isaiah says: 'they shall rest in their beds (57:2). To them the grave is not a tomb, but as it were, a bed in which they sleep until the time comes when they are to be awakened. (Isaiah 26:19)"

"Churchyards are called bedrooms and beds. These places of burial are held in peculiar honor and are called sleeping places (cemeteries). These names are a very fine testimony, whereby we confess by the manner of burying the dead that they will surely rise on Judgment Day. For the name of the burial place indicates that we carry the dead out in order to put them into the earth as into a bed of downy feathers. Moreover, the Holy Spirit calls dying and being buried lying down to sleep. For Christ says of Jairus' daughter, who had died 'give place, for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth," and He says to her: "Damsel, I say unto thee, arise" (Mark 5:41), that is, wake up, and promptly the damsel arose, just as if she have been lying in a deep sleep. How could we be willing, without this comfort, to look forward to so much adversity in this world? For Christians then, the churchyard is to be a sleeping place, for so God Himself calls it. The entire Holy Scripture, the Patriarchs, the prophets, and the entire Christian Church so call it"

"Since death is called a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but we shall awake and live again, and the time during which we sleep cannot be long. It will seem as if we had just dropped off, so that we shall rebuke ourselves for having been appalled and frightened at so fine a sleep in the hour of death. And so from grave and corruption we shall in a moment go to meet our Lord and Savor Christ in the clouds. We shall be alive, entirely sound and vigorous, with a clean, bright, transfigured body. We should, therefore, with all confidence and joy commit and commend our soul, body, and life to Christ, as to our faithful Savior and Redeemer, even as we must without all care, commit our life to Him in bodily sleep and rest, certain that we shall not lose it, as it seems, but kept safely and well in His hand, it will be sustained and restored to us."

Perhaps it is better to investigate his position more closely and decide for yourself what he means.

The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality.

I agree with that. I am not sure why they are linking the two.

Just because a person believes in soul sleep it doesn't follow that he doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Apparently Luther did believe in soul sleep

I agree with that statement about Luther.


And that the two doctrines are not necessarily the same doctrine.

I am trying to find out more about what Luther believed in the area of conditionalism - some have claimed that Luther and Adam Clarke held to the same view on that subject. But I don't know if it is true or not.

I also don't think Luther held to the soul sleep idea to the very end of his life - he may have changed his mind in later years. The point is that the discussion "was had" by Luther even if not by others.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

That's pretty much what I thought, too--that Bob wanted to kill two birds with one stone by attempting to tie the one doctrine to the other, which Luther definitely did not do.

Yeah, annihilationism and soul sleep are two different doctrines.

 

[Tangible]

Hey, instead of supposing and making inferences from nebulous statements, let's discuss two doctrines that Luther made crystal clear statements about and would have fought to the death to defend:

1) Infant Baptism
2) The Real Presence of Jesus' body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

I'm sure that Bob accepts these doctrines wholeheartedly.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I stated before that I differ with Luther on some things - for example I don't think the 4th commandment can be bent/edited to point to week-day-1 instead of the 7th day as God stated it.

However I cannot then claim that this difference of view is outside the realm of Christian discussion or debate and that Luther's view should not be "tolerated".........snip...........

in Christ,

Bob

Why I am not surprised you bring up the 4th Commandment

http://www.christianforums.com/t6748067/
Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)




.

.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Hey, instead of supposing and making inferences from nebulous statements, let's discuss two doctrines that Luther made crystal clear statements about and would have fought to the death to defend:

1) Infant Baptism
2) The Real Presence of Jesus' body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

I'm sure that Bob accepts these doctrines wholeheartedly.

Don't forget God's sovereign election of his chosen sons and daughters to salvation.

 

[Tangible]

Hey, instead of supposing and making inferences from nebulous statements, let's discuss two doctrines that Luther made crystal clear statements about and would have fought to the death to defend:

1) Infant Baptism
2) The Real Presence of Jesus' body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

I'm sure that Bob accepts these doctrines wholeheartedly.

3) God's sovereign election of his chosen sons and daughters to salvation

 

[Tertiumquid]

RE: Luther and "soul sleep" is a far more complicated issue. If one looks at Luther's own statements and we ask if he believed in "soul sleep", our answer is basically, "Kind of?" Here's a treatment of that very subject -- Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther’s Understanding of “Soul Sleep” (Part Three)

Thanks for posting one my Luther links. I'll gladly defend my research on Luther against any SDA person selectively citing his writings.

As I said in that entry:

"What can be said of Seventh Day Adventist usage of Luther on this point? I suggest they incorrectly present a dogmatic Luther who uses “soul sleep” to refute purgatory and saint worship, which I maintain is not the case. To use Luther correctly, they should at least note Luther’s opinion was speculative and undogmatic. He didn't approach the text of Scripture with the same certainty on “soul sleep” they do. Luther doesn't even have the same theological motivations for the doctrine of “soul sleep” that the Adventists do. What motivates the Adventists on this doctrine? What motivated Luther? These seem to be crucial questions for anyone wishing to use Luther as an authority."

Regards,

James

 

[BobRyan]

I don’t understand why the Wikipedia article you referred to says that Luther believed in conditional immortality, because if what is meant by this is that Luther didn’t believe in the existence of an eternal hell in which the souls of men continued in a state of perpetual suffering then that is simply untrue. Luther definitely held that the souls of those who weren’t saved weren’t annihilated but continued in a never-ending existence.

Whilst Luther referred to Christ saving Christians from eternal death he didn’t mean that the damned no longer continued to exist, but only that they wouldn’t be with God. Hell is like an eternal death in that the damned are deprived of all the benefits of God’s presence whereas heaven in contrast is life at its fullest in the presence of God.

The concept of soul sleep is completely separate from conditional immortality. Just because a person believes in soul sleep it doesn't follow that he doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul. Apparently Luther did believe in soul sleep but he also believed in the immortality of the soul.

As already stated I agree they are two different doctrines.

But here is where wikipedia may be getting their claim about Luther regarding conditionalism -

In 1520 Martin Luther (1483-1546) published a defense of 41 of his propositions and cited the pope's immortality declaration as among "those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals."


The 27th Proposition reads,
"However, I permit the Pope establish articles of faith for himself and for his own faithful - such are: a) That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; b) that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; c) that the soul is the substantial form of the human body; d) that he (the pope) is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; e) that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals - in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.

 

[BobRyan]

I myself think that Martin Luther had some good ideas - but in the dark ages he was viewed as a schismatic and a heretic by the supposedly "infallible" sources in power during those dark ages.

...

Is it not surprising that there are still those within the Christian church that will think of the doctrine of Luther as heretical or schismatic or shall we say "unorthodox"??

I myself do not agree with Luther on all points of his doctrine - but to refuse to tolerate them or to declare them to be outside of the domain of the Christian religion?? That is a step I am not prepared to take.

Hey, instead of supposing and making inferences from nebulous statements, let's discuss two doctrines that Luther made crystal clear statements about and would have fought to the death to defend:

1) Infant Baptism
2) The Real Presence of Jesus' body and blood in the Sacrament of the Altar.

I'm sure that Bob accepts these doctrines wholeheartedly.

I find your logic "illusive" just then given the OP statement that I agree with some of Luther's statements but I do not agree with Luther on all his doctrine "which is the point".

As for your "nebulus" speculation above which of Martin Luther's statements below do you find "nebulus"? This will help us all in decrypting your post.

Luther:
[FONT=&quot]"Just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpected when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so shall we suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death."[/FONT]
Originally Posted by branchofthevine

You can find an anthology of Luther's works called "What Luther says" and under "death" he writes "We Christians, however, who have been redeemed through the precious blood of God's Son should by practice become accustomed in faith to despise death and to look upon it as a deep, sound, sweet sleep, to consider the coffin as nothing but our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing but a soft bed of ease and rest. And indeed, this is just what it is before God; for He says 'Our friend Lazarus sleepeth' [John 11:11], 'The maid is not dead, but sleepeth' [Matt 9:24]"


"We do say: There is a difference between going to sleep and dying, but for Christians, there is in truth, no difference"

"The Fathers called churchyards coemeteria (cemeteries) that is, places in which one sleeps, sleeping quarters, where Christians are buried, and I wish they were still so called. So Isaiah says: 'they shall rest in their beds (57:2). To them the grave is not a tomb, but as it were, a bed in which they sleep until the time comes when they are to be awakened. (Isaiah 26:19)"

"Churchyards are called bedrooms and beds. These places of burial are held in peculiar honor and are called sleeping places (cemeteries). These names are a very fine testimony, whereby we confess by the manner of burying the dead that they will surely rise on Judgment Day. For the name of the burial place indicates that we carry the dead out in order to put them into the earth as into a bed of downy feathers. Moreover, the Holy Spirit calls dying and being buried lying down to sleep. For Christ says of Jairus' daughter, who had died 'give place, for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth," and He says to her: "Damsel, I say unto thee, arise" (Mark 5:41), that is, wake up, and promptly the damsel arose, just as if she have been lying in a deep sleep. How could we be willing, without this comfort, to look forward to so much adversity in this world? For Christians then, the churchyard is to be a sleeping place, for so God Himself calls it. The entire Holy Scripture, the Patriarchs, the prophets, and the entire Christian Church so call it"

"Since death is called a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but we shall awake and live again, and the time during which we sleep cannot be long. It will seem as if we had just dropped off, so that we shall rebuke ourselves for having been appalled and frightened at so fine a sleep in the hour of death. And so from grave and corruption we shall in a moment go to meet our Lord and Savor Christ in the clouds. We shall be alive, entirely sound and vigorous, with a clean, bright, transfigured body. We should, therefore, with all confidence and joy commit and commend our soul, body, and life to Christ, as to our faithful Savior and Redeemer, even as we must without all care, commit our life to Him in bodily sleep and rest, certain that we shall not lose it, as it seems, but kept safely and well in His hand, it will be sustained and restored to us."

​

Frankly I know one or two people that also hold those views and would be much challenged to state their own views in more emphatic and explicit terms.


in Christ,

Bob