Doctrine verses Faith

[SavedByGrace3]

What you believe is not the same as what you mentally assent to.
"Belief" is of the heart, while "mental assenting" is of the head.
Doctrines and teachings are of the mental sort. They are the outward "clothes" that our hearts wear. They are outward expressions of what the inward heart believes... but they often are a bit more fleshed out and colorful and sometimes even contrary than what is underneath.
We use the outward doctrinal clothing to communicate with each other in this mental realm of words, reasoning, and logic.
The man of the heart communicates with God.
Belief is a function of the real man, the heart.
Doctrines are the outward clothing or expression of that faith.
So when you ask a question about what people "believe", be aware that some are going to respond with what they "think" (in their heads) rather than what they "believe" (in their hearts.

Rom 10:17
(WNT) And this proves that faith comes from a Message heard, and that the Message comes through its having been spoken by Christ.

or Didy's explanatory version:

"Faith comes by a revelation into your heart, and a revelation into your heart comes by Christ speaking a word into your heart."

What is my point in all this?
We can talk doctrine and teaching (the head stuff) all day. I suspect 90% of what gets booted back and forth here is just that. But how often do we talk about things that we share in the heart? Can you distinguish the difference between what you "believe" in your heart and the things that you merely "mentally assent" to? It is not as easy as it sounds.
Some ideas:
Since what we believe is a product of revelation from Christ, is it possible for our regenerate spirits to believe "lies"?
(I am not talking about mentally assenting to false teachings, I am talking about having lies believed in our hearts)
If not, is there scriptural evidence of this?
If in fact we cannot believe "lies", and the contents of our hearts are only those truths spoken into them by Christ, then:
There is nothing in my heart that is contrary to anything in your heart. You may have things that I do not have, and I may have things that you do not have, but all the things we share in common are exactly the same.

If these things are true, then can we also use this function of the inner man as a built in truth detector?
Finally, if these things be true, then is it not a fact that all believers, regardless of doctrine (the head stuff) or denomination are in fact perfectly one in the beliefs of the spirit?
I have scriptures that speak to some of these issues, but would like to hear ideas from the crowd.
Thanks
Didy

 

[victoryword]

Didsworth

I think that it's time for you to create a webpage and make your teachinmgs available

 

[Charlesinflorida]

It might be that what you believe at the heart is connected to faith. "Faith" in the Hebrew is more akin to "Trusting" or "relying upon", because faith is coupled directly with actions. James makes a point of this neccessity of having actions that are the outgrowth of your faith. How you live and what you do expresses your faith and what you really believe.

In Judaism it is believed that when you stand before the Judgement seat, the first quesion asked of you is not, "what do you believe", but rather, "how did you conduct your business affairs?" Do you se the connetion there?

So perhaps what we really believe in our hearts is expressed in our actions, how we live.

Charles in Florida

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It might be that what you believe at the heart is connected to faith. "Faith" in the Hebrew is more akin to "Trusting" or "relying upon", because faith is coupled directly with actions. James makes a point of this neccessity of having actions that are the outgrowth of your faith. How you live and what you do expresses your faith and what you really believe.

In Judaism it is believed that when you stand before the Judgement seat, the first quesion asked of you is not, "what do you believe", but rather, "how did you conduct your business affairs?" Do you se the connetion there?

So perhaps what we really believe in our hearts is expressed in our actions, how we live.

Charles in Florida

Good words indeed CIF.
Let me address one thing.
Sometimes people behave outside of their inner nature. This is basically what happens when we sin. But it is also happens when we behave ourside of our faith.
I like the parable of the Compassionate Father (I know most people refer to it as the parable of the prodigal son). Jesus said that the young son who left and ended up with the pigs was not "being himself".

Luk 15:17
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

So while this young man was away from the father, he was not acting according to his true self, a state that commentators even consider "mad", "deranged", or otherwise "out of his head". I think this is what happens to us. We can come to ourselves like he did, realize we are feeding on pig food, and begin to act in accordance with who and what we really are.
So I think I am trying to say that some (many?) of us have the truth locked up inside us, but allow our outer nature (and in some cases, our outer religious doctrine) to get the best of us and lead us around. It is only when we are destitute (physically or spiritually) that we "come to our senses" and head home to Abba, the word, and our rights as believers.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Didsworth

I think that it's time for you to create a webpage and make your teachinmgs available

Been there done that bro!
See my homepage.
Thanks so much for the kind supportive words!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Thanks Didy,

I think of this Parable as the story of the disfunctional family. We think of the elder son as being somehow good and obedient, but he is a silent evil in that he is the older son and he would have had to receive his inheritance before the younger brother could get his. (Its the law) But he was staying around to get the entire farm, the double portion that he was entitled to as first born. . But the father has the right to hold it until his death even though he has given it to his son. The father is allowed to work it and to earn income from it. What both of these men said to their father was really, "You are worth more to me dead than alive!" I think that when the prodigal returns the elder is afraid that the deal is off, and he will loose his inheritance and have to give the farm back to his father. There are some real issues in this family. But this is how many of us act at times. We want the blessings of the father, what he has to offer, and then we want him to leave us alone to live our own lives however we want, whether in riotous living and sin or as being our own little gods.
Charles in Florida

 

[Jim B]

Because of the evangelical in me, I think sound teaching (doctrine) is very important. On the other hand, the Charismatic in me values faith and refuses to discount experience. So there is a tension between the two and, because they are often polemic, some people tend to go to the extremes.

I was taught many years ago that Christianity without signs and wonders is little more than just another religion. But without doctrine Christianity is like the Gnostism of old: truth is purely revelatory and we are truth unto ourself and everything is subjective.
Didy observed:

If in fact we cannot believe "lies", and the contents of our hearts are only those truths spoken into them by Christ, then:
There is nothing in my heart that is contrary to anything in your heart. You may have things that I do not have, and I may have things that you do not have, but all the things we share in common are exactly the same.

Which leads me to the question, What things do we (all born again believers in Christ) believe in common? Is there such a thing as “Essential Doctrines,” those doctrines that are necessary for all Christians to embrace if they are to be Christians? IOW, what doctrines are essential and which are peripheral?

And CIF, you really stirred my gray matter. Are we to believe, as the Parable of the Prodigal reveals, that God's family is dysfunctional? The more I think about your choice of the word, the more I think that it probably is.

 

[Jesusmyfriend]

/

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Hello,

I have faith there is no way to to reach heaven through the law of Moses.

This has always been true, even in the time of Moshe. It is only a church misconception that the law was a salvation path. It never was. In fact that law teaches only salvation through faith. Law is instruction in Godly living, so that we know the will of God, so that we have a foundation to guide our actions in a way that expresses who God is and who he is in us.

Here is something else for you to consider; without the old testament, the New testament is like a copy of the first century national enquirer. "Man turns water into wine. Leppars cleansed at a command. Boy with small lunch feeds 5000, crucified man seen alive again after three days!" Who would ever believe this stuff?

It is only the Old Testament that lays the foundation which make Yeshua the true Messiah and our faith more than a side show. You can not build a house without a foundation. Torah IS the foundation on which everything else sits.

You are far more dependent on the Law of Moshe than you can ever imagine!

Charles in Florida

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Which leads me to the question, What things do we (all born again believers in Christ) believe in common? Is there such a thing as “Essential Doctrines,” those doctrines that are necessary for all Christians to embrace if they are to be Christians? IOW, what doctrines are essential and which are peripheral?

Excellent question Jimbo.
I think there is in fact a "default" value that all believers have in common.
I would suspect it has something to do with:
1. Jesus is the Son of God/Lord/Christ.
2. Jesus died for our sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.

I think this is the bare minimum. Jesus is central in all three points. You may word them differently... and some may not even require each individual point. I might even reduce it to the single word that that "Jesus is Lord"... the action being calling on His name while not even knowing what you are being saved from.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

How about;

"Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu Adnonai Echad!" Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. It is the proclamation that there is only one true God. It is at the heart of Judaism, and Christianity and is the theme around which Paul writes all of his letters. There is only one God and there is only one people of God.We are all joined to the eternal one, through Messiah Yeshua.

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

It is only the Old Testament that lays the foundation which make Yeshua the true Messiah

Charles,

Are you saying that Christ does or cannot exist outside the OT as the Messiah? Is it that if one does not have a foundation centered in the OT then their salvation is for naught?

and our faith more than a side show.

Paul in the book of Hebrews tells us that faith is the substance of things hoped for and not seen. Yes, he does speak of the faithfull saints of the OT but this is simply to show or prove his given definition. The OT was the only way until Jesus' death on the cross. Now we have the way of the New Covenant and yes it is by faith also but it doesn't need to be a faith based on OT teaching. All one needs is the name of Jesus to stand in faith.

you can not build a house without a foundation. Torah IS the foundation on which everything else sits.

Without a doubt, the OT is the foundation, which continually pointed towards the MEssiah and the need of one to place their faith in the Messiah. With the death of the Messiah came the New Covenant which fulfilled the requirements of the Old and gives us new commandments which with just the two As we purpose to follow them as one would have needed to do the ten) He has given us in the NT we fulfill the ten of the OT.

My faith is based on Christ whom God has chosen for us to follow in faith. By placing our faith in the Messiah we honor and fulfill the will of God for our lives. The OT was always pointing one towards the coming of the Messiah. The gospels present us the Messiah. The rest of the NT up to Revelation point us back to the Messiah of the gospels. In Revelation we see the preperation that not only earth but heaven also must go through so that the Messiah can eternally assume His role as King of kings and Lord of Lords.

Here is something else for you to consider; without the old testament, the New testament is like a copy of the first century national enquirer. "Man turns water into wine. Leppars cleansed at a command. Boy with small lunch feeds 5000, crucified man seen alive again after three days!" Who would ever believe this stuff?

?????? Your analogy lacks something.

How about these headlines;

Brother kills brother because of jealousy over sacrifice! Inquiring minds ask, "Uh, whats a sacrifice?"

or

Man builds giant boat! Touts of an impending flood! Again, inquiring minds ask, "Uh, whats a boat? Or a flood?" All but 8 didn't believe this!

or

Man throws stick in water causing axe head to float!

or

Prophet Victim of alien abduction! Eye witness reports of firey horse and Chariot in the sky! Sadly, many today would believe this one!

or

Talking Donkey Averts Disaster!

The list goes on and on. OT "headlines" were just as unbelieveable. The Children of Israel wondered in the wilderness for forty years because of unbelief. The nation of Israel is still looking for the Messiah because of unbelief. How can they still be searching if the Law of Moshe is the foundation on which everything sets? If this were true wouldn't it go to say that the Jews as a whole, the nation of Israel, should be the most outspoken people concerning the "Good News" of the Messiah?

Again, the OT points towards the Messiah, not creates Him. He always was, is, and will forever be!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Marine,

What I am saying is that the OT told us exactly what to expect in Messiah, where he would be born, his ministry, his death his resurrection ect. And because of what had happened before in the OT and the miraculas foundation and prophetic nature of Gods word, knowing the end from the beginning,we have no doubt that Yeshua was who he appeared to be. It was no acident that he was born in Bethlehem. It was Gods stated plan from the beginning. Because of all these prophecies it was impossible for anyone to self fulfill and self proclaim to be messiah. He would have to chose the place of his own birth and how and where he would die ect. We knew Messiah from the OT. Messiah was from the beginning with God and was God and he became flesh and we beheld his Glory!

There is no such thing as an old testament and New testament. There is one continuous testament. Everything that is in the "New" was fortold and pattened in the Old. IT just unfolds as it was meant to.

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

There is no such thing as an old testament and New testament. There is one continuous testament. Everything that is in the "New" was fortold and pattened in the Old. IT just unfolds as it was meant to.

Yes, foretold by the OT to embrace the Messiah which brought New Covenant. The blood sacrifice of animals was abolished in favor of the blood sacrifice of Christ hence the New Testament or Covenant. Repetitive, unpure cleansing of sins has been replaced by an eternal and pure washing of the blood of the Lamb. We also have the introduction of the church with Christ as the Head which is not foreshadowed in the OT hence signifying something new.


We can see that even Christ the Messiah teaching the "flesh" aspect of following the OT law and took it further to show that it is completely based in the Spirit. The rich young ruler found it easy to fulfill the first of the commandments of which Christ had asked of Him but when it came to actually sacrificing the things he cherished in the flesh he hung his head and walked away. Why? Didn't the law teach him to fulfill these others that Christ had asked? Sure it did but these could only be fulfilled by walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. It was required of him to crucify the desires of his flesh leaving only the Spirit to walk by. Paul understood this and allowed the Holy Spirit to teach him the truth concerning the OT law, or Torah and we see the teaching of the Spiritual basis of the law throughout Pauls writings. This is the premise of the New Covenant.

If man could of fulfilled the OT law simply by doing it then there would have been no need for the Messiah. But alas, the flesh could not fulfill that which needed righteousness and holiness to fulfill it. The world at that time needed a Saviour for nothing up to this point could save mankind, even Israel. This was the purpose of the Messiah. To fulfill for us that which we would never have been able to fulfill ourselves, even with the teaching of the Torah.

What I am saying is that the OT told us exactly what to expect in Messiah, where he would be born, his ministry, his death his resurrection ect.

I truly believe this for I read it in my Bible as so but if the Torah is all one needs then my question is this, since Jews are verly well versed in the Torah, why is it that they then, and now, reject Yeshua as the Messiah? Apparently the Torah, OT law, or Old Covenant as it is isn't enough, that one needs what is made clear and commanded in the New Covenant also.

The Old Testament isn't to be ignored and yes it is a foundation but what is a foundation for but to be built upon? And what are we to build upon it but the New Covenant of Jesus Christ?


I believe we at times are saying the same things it is just that you stand on what you have been taught in the Torah by your Judaism and I by what I have been taught in the New Covenant by my Christianity. All scripture is profitable for reproof and doctrine. None is any less substanctial than another. Some just have deeper (Spiritual) explanations and teachings.

 

[LynneClomina]

wow you said that really well, GodzMarine! that is exactly what i believe. thank you for saying it so clearly.

i was feeling like i was the only one who believed that way!!! rotten day that ive had, i needed the encouragement of reading it. thank you!

Lynne

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Hi Marine,
Always good to speak with you. And you are correct that we agree in most things.

The blood sacrifice of animals was abolished in favor of the blood sacrifice of Christ hence the New Testament or Covenant. Repetitive, unpure cleansing of sins has been replaced by an eternal and pure washing of the blood of the Lamb. We also have the introduction of the church with Christ as the Head which is not foreshadowed in the OT hence signifying something new.

Yes, with the exeption that the church as it exists today was not forseen. The Church today and for the last 1600 years has been a blend of Paganism and Judaism.

The rich young ruler found it easy to fulfill the first of the commandments of which Christ had asked of Him but when it came to actually sacrificing the things he cherished in the flesh he hung his head and walked away. Why? Didn't the law teach him to fulfill these others that Christ had asked? Sure it did but these could only be fulfilled by walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh. It was required of him to crucify the desires of his flesh leaving only the Spirit to walk by. Paul understood this and allowed the Holy Spirit to teach him the truth concerning the OT law, or Torah and we see the teaching of the Spiritual basis of the law throughout Pauls writings. This is the premise of the New Covenant.

This is correct. Yet I ask you, don't we in the west, predominately christian by persuasion, all live in affluence and wealth as did the rich young ruler, when compared to our counterparts in other places. Our main concern is football, while every year over 150,000 of our brothers die for their faith in Islamic contries like indonesa. Are we then living this spirit life as Yeshua would ask us to do? I don't believe that we are. We live shallow spirtual lives and spend our days on the net arguing doctrine, rather than feeding the poor and fighting for the lives of those martyrs.

One of the features of my web site was that there were hot links to all major diplomats foreign and domestic where a person could at least get in touch with the power people and voice themselves and defend these poor souls.

And yes, Paul had to redefine his understanding of the Torah according to his knowledge of Messiah. We should do that as well, but rather than taking the position that Paul presented, we study Paul in light of church traditon and so we come to the wrong conclusions. We must be ever vigilant to keep Pauls writings in the framework of second temple Juidaism. When he says that all scripture is good...ect. he is only speaking of the Tanahk. There was no new testament. When he tells Timothy to be faithful to those things taught him as a child, he is speaking of the Judaism which his grandmother raised him in, not Sunday christianity. Tanahk in light of Messiah Yeshua, not Paul in light of Sunday Christianity.

If man could of fulfilled the OT law simply by doing it then there would have been no need for the Messiah. But alas, the flesh could not fulfill that which needed righteousness and holiness to fulfill it. The world at that time needed a Saviour for nothing up to this point could save mankind, even Israel. This was the purpose of the Messiah. To fulfill for us that which we would never have been able to fulfill ourselves, even with the teaching of the Torah.

Biblical Judaism is built around righteous living according to Gods instruction and salvation through faith in Gods forgiveness. The sacrifices looked forward to the perfect sacrifice that would come and deliverance through messiah. There was no teaching that keeping Torah would win your slavation. This was a perversion that occured only in a small sect and these people were rebuked by Yeshua and by Paul. The main featue of Temple Judaism was the day of Atonement. It is repentence and Gods forgiveness through the blod of another, not your own. You salvation and eternal life hung on that event of someone else paying your debt for you, and God accepting that payment.

I truly believe this for I read it in my Bible as so but if the Torah is all one needs then my question is this, since Jews are verly well versed in the Torah, why is it that they then, and now, reject Yeshua as the Messiah? Apparently the Torah, OT law, or Old Covenant as it is isn't enough, that one needs what is made clear and commanded in the New Covenant also.

The Old Testament isn't to be ignored and yes it is a foundation but what is a foundation for but to be built upon? And what are we to build upon it but the New Covenant of Jesus Christ?

I never said Torah was all you need. Torah is instructions in how to live successfully as humans and in a way that is pleasing to God. It shows us where the lines are that we are to stay within. Torah tells us how we are to deal with our violations of these lines. Over and over the Torah tells us of our need for Gods Grace and provides rich lessons about he Messiah.

Why do/did the Jew reject Messiah? This is a falacy. Read your book of acts. The Jews believed in Yeshua by the thousands, a huge number in light of the population of that time.Even many of the priests believed didn't they? It was the piesthood of hasmoneans that saw their system being disrupted by this fellow Yeshua and considered him a threat to he status quo, and had him killed. And after the resurrection things really began to snowball with new converts to faith in Yeshua.

Lets stop for a moment and consider the position of Jews in that day that did not personally witness the events. They were raised under Torah which cautions not to believe in any other God or to do anything outside of Torah. But the followers of this Yeshua are becoming more and moe Gentile and are bringing in their former Pagan practices which you know are forbidden by Gods law and jeopodize your place with God. Are you going to believe the Gospel if it is told to you that everything that God has drilled into you for hundreds of generations is now void, that now you are to break Torah because God has extended his mercy? Don't be rediculas. You yourself would never do such a thing. Yet that is what was happening. IT continues today, because people in the church fail to recognize the validity of Gods commandments, even in the light of Yeshua. They blieve he destroyed the law, even though he said that he did not come to destroy it.

Today it is even worse, because the Jews are forbidden to read the prophecies that prove Yeshua to be messiah, and there is this bloody history of Christians killing Jews by the millions, through pograms and holocausts like the inquisition. Christian inquisitors would gather up the Jews in a town into the synagogue, chain the doors shut with the people inside and set fire to the building. Then they would stand around outside singing praises to Jesus as the people inside screamed for mercy and died horrible deaths in flaming fire. the S.S. in the death camps of Germany wore big belt buckles with the words "Jesus is Lord" proudly printed on them. How can you expect any sane Jew to believe that Jesus and his followers are Gods planned Messiah of the Jewish people?

I believe we at times are saying the same things it is just that you stand on what you have been taught in the Torah by your Judaism and I by what I have been taught in the New Covenant by my Christianity. All scripture is profitable for reproof and doctrine. None is any less substanctial than another. Some just have deeper (Spiritual) explanations and teachings.

All scripture means Tanahk, Old testament. O.T. in light of Messiah, not Paul in light of the twisted doctrines of the christian traditions. Remember that Luther posted 95 things that he found violently wrong with this church, and only a ew items were changed. And Luther hated Jews and called them "a den of witches" and encouraged people to kill them and steal their property. He was a worshipper of Mary and prayed to the saints instead of God. Ths is the man who was the head of Protestantism. There are many things that have never been corrected in christianity. Perhaps when the Lord comes.

Charles in Florida

 

[Perceivence]

IT continues today, because people in the church fail to recognize the validity of Gods commandments, even in the light of Yeshua. They blieve he destroyed the law, even though he said that he did not come to destroy it.

So Messianic Jews observe everything the Seventh Day Adventists do (Ten Commandmentes and Dietary Laws)...and some other Jewish teachings...but you believe that Jesus is the Messaiah? (I'm basing my questions and comment on a not-so-vague memory of the FAQ on the Messianic Jew board.)

All scripture means Tanahk, Old testament. O.T. in light of Messiah, not Paul in light of the twisted doctrines of the christian traditions.

You're Charismatic. Don't you believe that the meaning of a passage may change overtime, or that passages may assume different meanings than what is conventionally interpreted as directed by the Holy Spirit (apart from these conventional interpretations that are supposed to be directed by the Holy Spirit)?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

So Messianic Jews observe everything the Seventh Day Adventists do (Ten Commandmentes and Dietary Laws)...and some other Jewish teachings...but you believe that Jesus is the Messaiah? (I'm basing my questions and comment on a not-so-vague memory of the FAQ on the Messianic Jew board.)

Not at all. Messianics not only observe the Sabbath but live a Torah obedient life style which includes the feast days of God ect. Basically we live pretty much like the first churchs in Jerusalem. The church continued to have a Hebraic form until Rome sort of took things over in 300 AD. Then Pagan traditions began to replace what God had given. Today many are being called to return to that which was first given.

You're Charismatic. Don't you believe that the meaning of a passage may change overtime, or that passages may assume different meanings than what is conventionally interpreted as directed by the Holy Spirit (apart from these conventional interpretations that are supposed to be directed by the Holy Spirit)?

2PET 1: [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. [21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I am not sure if this is what you mean or if you are speaking of progressive revelation. Scripture may have a way of speaking to a person at a personal level in a different way, but that does not establish new doctrine for the church. What is written in the word must be understood in the context in which it was written. If it has prophetic meaning for our day it will still fit wihout being twisted into a different context. So the simple answer to your question would be no, scripture does not change meaning, because the one who wrote it does not change his mind.

I began as a Charismatic long ago when the movement first began at Notre Dam. We were part of the group called "People of Praise" which grew out of the businessmans fellowship international. It is where it all began. The Lord very quickly directed me to dig deep into the word and discover Messianic truth. I have been Messianic for over 25 years.

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

Charles,

Just a couple quick questions. Doesn't the two commandments, "Love God with all that we are (paraphrased) " and "Love your neighbor as yourself" given to us by Yeshua fulfill the law?

The other question being how does grace come into effect if we are still under the law?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles,

Just a couple quick questions. Doesn't the two commandments, "Love God with all that we are (paraphrased) " and "Love your neighbor as yourself" given to us by Yeshua fulfill the law?

The other question being how does grace come into effect if we are still under the law?

Hi Marine,

In a broad sense you are correct. The ten commandments are sort of an index to the Torah, or a brief overview. The ten can be divided into two halves, with the fist 5 telling us how to love God and the second half how to love our neighbor. The big two, Love God and Love neighbor was not something coined by Yeshua. It was already stated in Torah and in Jewish religion.

In Talmud there is the sory of R.Hillel who was told to recite the meaning of the entire Torah while standing on one foot, and to do so on penalty of death. He paused for only a moment stood on one foot and said. "Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself, all the rest is comentary"

This took place long beore Yeshua was born. In fact many of the teachings of Yeshua have a familiar ring to Hilel. They wee on the same page you might say.

But now there are specifics as to how to do these things. What is fair, how do I right a wrong, what is restitution, what about a bad debt, or an accidental injury. How do I handle inheritance, and welfare, and financial aide to the widows. Many many more questions, and the Toah lays down principles as to how we should handle these things. It also covers how God wants us to worship Him, something that we would have no idea unless God told us.

How does Grace come into effect if we are under law? Just as it always did. Grace is not license, like a prepaid sin card that allows us to live how ever we want, sin all we want, and know that Dady has pledged to pay for it. Grace is extended to us where we try and fail. Where we try to live accoridng to Gods law and don't meat up. We repent, confess, and are extended grace. It is not a free covereing for self will outside what God gives us as right.

What we have to be careful to understand is that Torah is not to be obeyed legalistically, that is to say, like a list of things that if I do them you are saved. No. I am saved already. Now I will live a life of gratitude by trying to follow Gods direction.

Abraham was saved by faith, then he was obedient to the covenant including circumcision. .

Israel was saved in Egypt, and then they were given the covenant and the law and learned to be obedient.

We are now saved by Yeshua, and after that we enter the new covenant with the Torah written on our hearts, and we try to walk in obedience to it. If we fail in some point, it is just as in the OT, we confess, repent receive Grace and start again.

Charles in Florida