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The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.Zona said:Over in the apologetics forum one of the Christian doctrines that disturbs unbelievers is the idea that God will punish non-believers in hell for eternity. To be honest, I find it disturbing myself. It's for this reason I probably have not studied carefully what the scriptures say re. hell. (Being a "scripture alone" sort of guy, I realize whether it disturbs me or anyone else is not the issue.)
So, here's a question:
Where does scripture indicate that the unbeliever is punished forever rather than consumed (cease to exist) by hell?
I am only in the beginnings of looking at the scriptures, but this question immediately jumps out at me.
@@Paul@@ said:The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.
Rev 20:10-15 KJV...Now if we want to be fair here, IT doesn't really say "for ever and ever"; it says "for ages and ages".
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
G165...So can we honestly say all unbelievers will be tormented in the Lake of Fire for all eternity?? I don't think so, it's possible, but i don't believe it's the case.
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Paul,@@Paul@@ said:The "unbelievers" are not cast into Hell; they are cast into the "Lake of Fire". Hell is known as "the grave", the lake of fire is not.Rev 20:10-15 KJV...Now if we want to be fair here, IT doesn't really say "for ever and ever"; it says "for ages and ages".
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
porcupine,porcupine said:However, Jesus did believe it to be the case:
Mark 9:42-48
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
ps139 said:Here are some examples:
Isaiah 33:11-1411 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. 13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. 14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
ps139 said:Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I'd love to see what the Catholic church has to say on this, also.Brother Simon said:I'm not 100% sure if this is what the Church teaches regarding hell, and if it's not I encourage my Catholic brothers and sisters to correct me!
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna," of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621
- Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
- Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622
Zona said:[/color]
Note the use of "devour" in this passage. Would it be a mistake to think that devour may have some sense of finality, i.e. end of existence?
If you cease to exist for eternity.....?? Once you ceased existing, you would be done, no more, just stopped existing... how could it be an eternal punishment, if there is no one to be punished?? Or an everlasting fire if there is nothing to burn?This passage is probably the strongest passage I have seen indicating everlasting punishment. But could it be that to cease to exist for eternity is an eternal punishment. Is it absolutely certain that the punishment entails conscious suffering?
What if you never hear and hence never reject?hola said:Hola friend,
A couple wise friends helped me understand part of this some time ago. You see, God IS our salvation....if and only if we have God, we are saved. Now God does love everybody. He doesn't want any to perish. The only reason that people go to hell is because they choose to. They reject God, their salvation.
Where could we hide from God?Hell is the only place where God is not, and nothing of his character is there. It's the only place where people choose to go to actually get completely away from God. They are completely separated from God. Think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit (if you want to describe God's character or nature)...love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. None of those things will be in hell, because God is not there. Neither will hope (as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13, and other Scriptures). No one in hell will ever have any hope of leaving hell or things getting better for them. Why not? As I said....they chose to be separated from God. To be separated from God is to be separated from salvation, and any hope of going to heaven, and any hope of not going to hell.
It is clear it is everlasting, but could it be that the everlasting is there for Satan and his like?ps139 said:[/color]Every passage I quoted mentioned that the "fire," or hell is eternal. The words used to describe hell are eternal, unquenchable, everlasting... why else would any of those words be used if hell was not permanent, if you just stopped existing... wouldn't "everlasting" lose its relevancy?
It is eternal in that it is irreversible. It is the end of any hope.ps139 said:If you cease to exist for eternity.....?? Once you ceased existing, you would be done, no more, just stopped existing... how could it be an eternal punishment, if there is no one to be punished?? Or an everlasting fire if there is nothing to burn?
Zona said:porcupine,
Per these passages, the fire lasts forever, but I do not see where the passages say a punishment lasts forever. It seems that at most these passages may imply an eternal punishment.
hola,hola said:...Hell is the only place where God is not, ...
hola said:Hell is the only place where God is not,
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