Doctrinal variations of AoG or pentocostal churches

[SuperBunny]

Do you go to a church that is AoG Assembly of God that is REALLY arminian? I've watched Lakewood church on tv from Texas and they preach a calvinistic message. They are supposed to be classified as arminian. I was wondering if your AoG church is really arminian? Or do they flip-flop with this "it doesn't matter what you do to be saved, just matters that you believe". That is so flaky to me! It does matter what we do to be saved!

So, without tangling with you calvinist pentocostals here, I am interested in those that go to a AoG or pentocostal church and that they know they are arminian without them being apostolic and putting strange demands on women's already modest dressing.

 

[kidsminister]

Arminians believe in free will as opposed to predestination, right?

If so, I think my church (A/G) pretty much believes and preaches that...

What do you mean by "it doesn't matter what you do to be saved"? Does that refer to the method in which you ask Jesus into your life, or your actual life once you become a Christian?

 

[SuperBunny]

That is a calvinist statement which I don't agree with.

There is no difference between getting saved and staying saved. It is not right to tell people that what they do doesn't matter. That is a sneaky deceptive way to get people in the churches. It's sheer double-talk to say "repent", and then "it doesn't matter what you do its all about God and not us".

God will not be flattered by that. It does matter what we do. And there are apparently AoG churches that will make popular calvinist statements because people like to hear it.

Does your church double-talk on that issue? Do they say "it doesn't matter to get saved, but to stay saved it does matter"? That makes no sense.

 

[Jim B]

I was an ordained AG minister for 27 years and served as pastor of four AG churches.

Speaking only of AG ministers when I was in the denomination (until 1995), the AG, for the most past (99%), are Armenian – more accurately, semi-Armenian (as Baptists are semi-Calvinist). IOW, they believe that man’s freewill continues after salvation and so a believer can, if he/she chooses, forfeit their salvation.

However, I have noticed that Calvinism is slowly making inroads into AG doctrine and there is more attention being given to God's grace than to human works (which was the dominant view during my years with them) in our justification.

Hope this helps.

\o/

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Arminians believe in free will as opposed to predestination, right?

If so, I think my church (A/G) pretty much believes and preaches that...

What do you mean by "it doesn't matter what you do to be saved"? Does that refer to the method in which you ask Jesus into your life, or your actual life once you become a Christian?

"Arminians believe in free will as opposed to predestination, right?"

That is a vast over-simplification of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

If an AoG church is teaching the Biblical truth that no one is saved because of anything they do, then they are absolutely correct.

The correct Christian/Calvinist/Biblical position is that salvation is solely the work of God by His Sovereign Grace, through faith in Christ alone, but that faith is never alone, it is followed by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Those good works are not meritoriously applied toward Salvation, but are the result of Salvation and a barometer by which we can walk circumspectly around our lives, inspecting our lives for conformity to Christ.

 

[Jim B]

Augustine_Was_Calvinist

And all this time I thought Calvin was Augustinian!!

\o/

 

[SuperBunny]

Jim, so you've seen it too. The Methodist church used to be really armininan and so was the Salvation army but no longer. They all sound like Calvary Chapel now. Calvinst to be saved, but arminian to stay saved. They flip-flop and those in authority don't stop those who preach if they have a nice face, charming or a good academic record as in the case of the Salavation Army. Flaky, flighty, with jokes etc.

 

[SuperBunny]

"Arminians believe in free will as opposed to predestination, right?"

That is a vast over-simplification of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

If an AoG church is teaching the Biblical truth that no one is saved because of anything they do, then they are absolutely correct.

The correct Christian/Calvinist/Biblical position is that salvation is solely the work of God by His Sovereign Grace, through faith in Christ alone, but that faith is never alone, it is followed by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Those good works are not meritoriously applied toward Salvation, but are the result of Salvation and a barometer by which we can walk circumspectly around our lives, inspecting our lives for conformity to Christ.

 

[SuperBunny]

Jim, are you arminian pentocostal? where should I go to church now? The AG seems like it would be a good place to go to church by the doctrinal statements but the ones around here are calvinist sounding or they are wildeyed lunatics. I won't go apostolic though and I won't go to charismatic calvinist? I think that 90% of AoG churches preach a calvinst gospel to be saved and then they switch to arminian when you are saved, but the arminian comments don't mean squat because the person had a nada limited salvation to be saved to begin with and built on sand. It is a mess.

 

[Jim B]

Jim, are you arminian pentocostal? where should I go to church now? The AG seems like it would be a good place to go to church by the doctrinal statements but the ones around here are calvinist sounding or they are wildeyed lunatics. I won't go apostolic though and I won't go to charismatic calvinist? I think that 90% of AoG churches preach a calvinst gospel to be saved and then they switch to arminian when you are saved, but the arminian comments don't mean squat because the person had a nada limited salvation to be saved to begin with and built on sand. It is a mess.

I guess I am an Armenianist or, maybe, Calvinian … somewhere in the middle. I do believe that the only way to be (and stay) justified is through faith in Christ’s finished work for us. That makes me Calvinist, I guess. But then I believe that a person can, by a free act of their own will, forfeit their salvation if they so choose. It is a matter of choice, not works. None of our lives are pure enough to merit or even to keep salvation. That is God’s doings. “The just live by faith,” not works. In that respect, I guess you could say I’m Armentian. Persoanlly, I prefer not to be put in either camp … too independent by nature, I suppose. You don't have to be either to be a Christian. What were Christians before Jacob Armentius and John Calvin?

Being Vineyard (two years now), I would, of course, recommend you visit a Vineyard church near you. Vineyard pastors come from such various backgrounds as Pentecostal/Charismatic to Evangelical/Reformed. It sounds like it would be a clash of beliefs and cultures but the Vineyard is accepting enough to tolerate each others’ beliefs/background. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to dialog without rancor. It is an amazing fellowship.

You can find out if there is a Vineyard near you by going to the following webpage: http://www.vineyardusa.org/churches/churches_index.htm.

Check us out.

\o/

 

[SuperBunny]

Jim, if they are calvinist I'm not interested. There have always been faith and works christians. They were orignally called Catholics, and some of those that broke away from the mother church still retained their faith and works before arminius, or calvin.

I'm not interested in the calvinist doctrine. IT is not sane.

 

[Jim B]

Jim, if they are calvinist I'm not interested. There have always been faith and works christians. They were orignally called Catholics, and some of those that broke away from the mother church still retained their faith and works before arminius, or calvin.

I'm not interested in the calvinist doctrine. IT is not sane.

Some are and some (like me) aren't. But I'll bet you will never know without cornering the pastor and asking him. Vineyard teaching is more of the rubber-meets-the-road variety than in championing, defending, or advancing pet doctrines.

Maybe that's why we get along.

\o/

 

[kidsminister]

"Arminians believe in free will as opposed to predestination, right?"

That is a vast over-simplification of both Arminianism and Calvinism.

If an AoG church is teaching the Biblical truth that no one is saved because of anything they do, then they are absolutely correct.

The correct Christian/Calvinist/Biblical position is that salvation is solely the work of God by His Sovereign Grace, through faith in Christ alone, but that faith is never alone, it is followed by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Those good works are not meritoriously applied toward Salvation, but are the result of Salvation and a barometer by which we can walk circumspectly around our lives, inspecting our lives for conformity to Christ.

Um, I was asking a question - not making a definitive statement.

I haven't spent a lot of time debating the issue, because I think it's a silly argument. I accepted Christ; therefore I am a Christian and a follower of Jesus, not Calvin or anyone else!!

I just wanted to make sure I was on the right page and wasn't talking about Calvinism when I really meant Arminianism.

 

[PatrickM]

I guess I am an Armenianist or, maybe, Calvinian … somewhere in the middle. I do believe that the only way to be (and stay) justified is through faith in Christ’s finished work for us. That makes me Calvinist, I guess. But then I believe that a person can, by a free act of their own will, forfeit their salvation if they so choose. It is a matter of choice, not works. None of our lives are pure enough to merit or even to keep salvation. That is God’s doings. “The just live by faith,” not works. In that respect, I guess you could say I’m Armentian. Persoanlly, I prefer not to be put in either camp … too independent by nature, I suppose. You don't have to be either to be a Christian.

Excellent, concise explanation.

What were Christians before Jacob Armentius and John Calvin?

Great point! I guess they were "flip-flopping Calvary Chapel-ites".

Being Vineyard (two years now), I would, of course, recommend you visit a Vineyard church near you. Vineyard pastors come from such various backgrounds as Pentecostal/Charismatic to Evangelical/Reformed. It sounds like it would be a clash of beliefs and cultures but the Vineyard is accepting enough to tolerate each others’ beliefs/background. Believe it or not, it is actually possible to dialog without rancor. It is an amazing fellowship.

You can find out if there is a Vineyard near you by going to the following webpage: http://www.vineyardusa.org/churches/churches_index.htm.

Check us out.

\o/

Sound advise