Doctors vs. Oath

[arnegrim]

I'm not sure if this is the proper forum... feel free to move it or tell me where to move it if it is not.

How is it that doctors are not allowed to be a part of a death penalty execution (due to their oath)... yet there is no problem with a doctor performing a partial birth abortion?

 

[Lucretius]

I'm not sure if this is the proper forum... feel free to move it or tell me where to move it if it is not.

How is it that doctors are not allowed to be a part of a death penalty execution (due to their oath)... yet there is no problem with a doctor performing a partial birth abortion?

Because a fetus is not a person whereas a human is. A partial-birth abortion is not murder. The thalamus which is responsible for consciousness as well as sensory input, as well as the connection of the brainstem to the spinal cord which allows sensory input from the various bodily nerves to the brain to process do not form until the 33rd week of pregnancy.

A fetus must achieve personhood before it can be considered human. If it has no defining characteristics that make it definitively human, I see no reason to treat it as such.

 

[kermit]

Late term abortions almost invariably occur when the either both the mother's and child's life is at high risk or when the mother's life is a high risk and the child too premature to survive.

It is almost always a case of losing one life instead of two.

 

[arnegrim]

Because a fetus is not a person whereas a human is. A partial-birth abortion is not murder. The thalamus which is responsible for consciousness as well as sensory input, as well as the connection of the brainstem to the spinal cord which allows sensory input from the various bodily nerves to the brain to process do not form until the 33rd week of pregnancy.

Source?

A fetus must achieve personhood before it can be considered human. If it has no defining characteristics that make it definitively human, I see no reason to treat it as such.

partial-birth abortions... meaning a viable child.

But lets not go even that far.

 

[arnegrim]

Late term abortions almost invariably occur when the either both the mother's and child's life is at high risk or when the mother's life is a high risk and the child too premature to survive.

It is almost always a case of losing one life instead of two.

Source?

What makes the death of a child... who is able to survive... any less of a conflict with their oath then a convicted person on death row?

 

[arnegrim]

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.

3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

 

[Lynden1000]

I'm not sure if this is the proper forum... feel free to move it or tell me where to move it if it is not.

How is it that doctors are not allowed to be a part of a death penalty execution (due to their oath)... yet there is no problem with a doctor performing a partial birth abortion?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that doctors are not allowed to be part of a death penalty execution. It is perfectly legal for them to be part of the execution, and in fact I think in some circumstances it is required that they be present.

Of course it is entirely up to the physician. No physician would be required to participate in an execution or to abort a fetus if it was against his or her ethical principles to do so.

 

[Lucretius]

Source?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain.htm — This site puts the time at 26 weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_development — This site puts it at the time of 27-31 weeks.

partial-birth abortions... meaning a viable child.

But lets not go even that far.

Once it's thalamus has developed, which is the center for conscious thought, you can call it a human. Before that, don't try it.

 

[kermit]

http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

Those stats are for abortion in general not late-term abortions. It's rather disengenuous to present them in this discussion.

 

[kermit]

Source?

What makes the death of a child... who is able to survive... any less of a conflict with their oath then a convicted person on death row?

How's this, please present one late-term abortion where the child would have survived.

The term partial birth is used to present a complete falsehood that the fetus is viable (able to survive outside the womb). The pratice of late-term abortion is used for non-viable fetuses and where the mother's life is at high risk.

 

[ballfan]

The term partial birth is used to present a complete falsehood that the fetus is viable (able to survive outside the womb). The pratice of late-term abortion is used for non-viable fetuses and where the mother's life is at high risk.

Keep dreaming. You couldn't be more wrong. Partial birth abortions are an abomination. How can a Christian support such?

Does God know us before we are born?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Apparently so. And what does the abortionist destroy when performing any abortion?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

He is destroying a work of God. Do Christians really want to be in the position of supporting destroying an innocent work of God for any reason?

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Aren't you glad the abortionist missed these?

 

[Mskedi]

The difference seems pretty straightforward to me. In an execution, you are definitely doing harm. In an abortion, it is debatable whether or not you are doing harm; therefore it would be up to the individual doctor whether or not s/he would take part in it.

 

[kermit]

Keep dreaming. You couldn't be more wrong. Partial birth abortions are an abomination. How can a Christian support such?

Does God know us before we are born?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Apparently so. And what does the abortionist destroy when performing any abortion?

Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

He is destroying a work of God. Do Christians really want to be in the position of supporting destroying an innocent work of God for any reason?

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Aren't you glad the abortionist missed these?

I only support the practice is rare circumstances. IMO, the only time the law should allow it is when:

a) The life of the mother is at great risk

and

b) The child is not viable

I think that a panel of at least 3 doctors should review each case.

 

[arnegrim]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that doctors are not allowed to be part of a death penalty execution. It is perfectly legal for them to be part of the execution, and in fact I think in some circumstances it is required that they be present.

Of course it is entirely up to the physician. No physician would be required to participate in an execution or to abort a fetus if it was against his or her ethical principles to do so.

Recently an execution was postponed because they could not find a doctor who would be a part of it... because they would be open to having their license revoked due to a conflict with their oath...

 

[arnegrim]

Table 1. Induced Abortions, 1992
>26 weeks 320

So should these doctors lose their license?

 

[momalle1]

Keep dreaming. You couldn't be more wrong. Partial birth abortions are an abomination. How can a Christian support such?

Does God know us before we are born?

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

So according to scripture, we are valid before we are even conceived. If two people that could consumate, decide not to one time, they may actually be abortionists according to scripture, because God already knows the one they are about to conceive.

 

[arnegrim]

That's a wonderful way to twist scripture...

not valid... but good try.

 

[blueapplepaste]

I believe it would be hypocritical of a doctor to perform partial-birth abortions and not be willing to execute someone. However, if the mother's life was at risk I suppose it could be argued that by aborting the fetus he is saving the mother, in which case he is fulfilling his oat to save lives.

I also find it hypocritical that people can be pro-life and pro-death penalty. But I suppose this is for another thread.

 

[Lucretius]

I don't understand why there is even a debate about the legality about abortion. The pro-life side has no scientific reasons to call the fetus a human. Why should we make what they want into law if they have no scientific proof to validate their claims?

 

[momalle1]

That's a wonderful way to twist scripture...

not valid... but good try.

Twist? That's what it says. It says God knows you before you grow in the belly. Show me where it doesn't say that.