Do you want to live in a Christian Theocracy?

Lotuspetal_uk · Aug 12, 2004

Jetgirl said:
Thanks Lotuspetal, is there a translation you prefer for this, I'll look it up this afternoon... it's way too early in the morning for me to be safely typing, much less reading religous text.

Hi Jetgirl,

Not a problem at all. Glad I can help.

To answer your question, I'd suggest the New International Version for now in terms of a quick reference to the verses.

Take Care

anoraky · Aug 12, 2004

Hi all. For those Christians who say they wouldn't support a Christian Theocracy, I have a question: How do you justify the banning of gay marriages and other examples of legislating morality? I understand why you don't *want* gay marriage to be legal since you believe that it's immoral, but what I don't understand is why we'd need laws against it. Isn't it up to the individual to decide whether or not to live by the Bible? I don't intend to pick a fight, but I geniunely don't understand the reasoning behind banning gay marriage.

Archivist · Aug 12, 2004

Who said that just because someone is a Christian they do not support legalizing gay marriage?

anoraky · Aug 12, 2004

I know not *all* Christians want to ban gay marriage, but I think there is a significant amount who do. Still, I should have worded that differently. My question was posed to Christians who don't support a Christian Theocracy and are opposed to gay marriage.

TrueQ · Aug 12, 2004

Now I wouldn't say that, Nexus. The extremists, you see, are always so vocal it seems like there are more of them. Just look how many Christians here are saying how they wouldn't want to do such a thing.

raym · Aug 17, 2004

Sopharos said:
Oh please, just look at Iran as a case study. Okay, it was based on Islam, not Christianity - but the basic model of "theocracy" in the real world stands.

I don't dwell in daydreams. It's a Dictatorship of the Clerics. Simple is that.

Hi guys!!!
man, your debates are good!!!!
but could you be debating over nothing!!!!

Consider the following Bible verses of Jesus, and let me in with what you think:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Teaching about Revenge - Mat 5:38-42 (also Luke 6.29-30) - Mat 5[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]38 You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39 But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too. 40 And if someone takes you to court to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one kilometre, carry it two kilometres. 42 When someone asks you for something, give it to him; when someone wants to borrow something, lend it to him.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Love for Enemies - Mat 5:43-47 (also Luke 6.27-28, 32-36)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]43 You have heard that it was said, Love your friends, hate your enemies. 44 But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may become the children of your Father in heaven. For he makes his sun to shine on bad and good people alike, and gives rain to those who do good and to those who do evil. 46 Why should God reward you if you love only the peop le who love you? Even the tax collectors do that! 47 And if you speak only to your friends, have you done anything out of the ordinary? Even the pagans do that! You must be perfectjust as your Father in heaven is perfect![/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Purse, Bag, and Sword - Luke 22:35-38 (only in Luke)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]35 Then Jesus asked his disciples, When I sent you out that time without purse, bag, or shoes, did you lack anything? Not a thing, they answered. 36 But now, Jesus said, whoever has a purse or a bag must take it; and whoever has no sword must sell his coat and buy one. 37 For I tell you that the scripture which says, He shared the fate of criminals, must come true about me, because what was written about me is coming true. 38 The disciples said, Look! Here are two swords, Lord! That is enough! he replied.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Explanation of "That is enough!"[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]G.B. Caird, St. Luke (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1963, page 241) explains:[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The instruction to sell their coats and buy swords is an example of Jesus' fondness for violent metaphor (cf. Matt. 23:24, Mark 10:25), but the disciples take it literally, as pedants have continued to do ever since. The words 'It is enough' indicate, not satisfaction with the disciples' military preparedness, but a sad dismissal of the subject (cf. 1 Kings 10:4, Mark 14:41).[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Caird's analysis of "That is enough!," which is shared by many scholars, finds support several verses later in the description of Jesus' arrest in Mat 26:50-52 and Luk 22:49-51, in the citations immediately below.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Arrest of Jesus - Luk 22:47-51 (Matt 26.47-56; Mark 14.43-50; John 18.3-11)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]47 Jesus was still speaking when a crowd arrived, led by Judas, one of the twelve disciples. He came up to Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said, Judas, is it with a kiss that you betray the Son of Man? 49 When the disciples who were with Jesus saw what was going to happen, they asked, Shall we use our swords, Lord? 50 And one of them struck the High Priests slave and cut off his right ear. 51 But Jesus said, Enough of this! He touched the mans ear and healed him.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Arrest of Jesus - Mat 26:50-52 (Mark 14.43-50; Luke 22.47-53; John 18.3-11)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]50 ...Then they came up, arrested Jesus, and held him tight. 51 One of those who were with Jesus drew his sword and struck at the High Priests slave, cutting off his ear. 52 Put your sword back in its place, Jesus said to him. All who take the sword will die by the sword." [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus Is Brought Before Pilate - Joh 18:36 (Matt 27.1, 2, 11-14; Mark 15.1-5; Luke 22.1-5)[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]36 Jesus said, My kingdom does not belong to this world; if my kingdom belonged to this world, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish authorities. No, my kingdom does not belong here![/font]

Nietzsche · Aug 18, 2004

Well i think we have learned that religious goverments dont work well.

If we lived under such condition we would end up being some wacko country one might find in the middle east

Rev. Smith · Sep 1, 2004

FadingWhispers3 · Sep 1, 2004

I think a christian theocracy would be a very BAD idea. My belief is that governments inevitably become corrupt. And if as it so happens this corrupt government is a theocracy, then you are suddenly 'going against the will of God' if you criticize it. Government is bad enough as it is without the complications of ignorant people claiming that God is on their side.

How do you justify the banning of gay marriages and other examples of legislating morality?

I hate legislation of morality with a bloody passion. (By legislation of morality I mean whatever is solely the idea of a given religious group and nearly always involves discrimination or oppression of one kind or another. If you believe it is immoral to murder, I am not saying it is wrong to make legislation against murder because you do not need a religion to tell you murder is bad. Or if you do, I feel sorry for you.)

So I don't justify it. I want it to go the way of the dinosaurs and that right quick.

The Bellman · Sep 1, 2004

Definitely not. The most dangerous people on the planet are religious fundamentalists with power.

Jennifer615 · Sep 1, 2004

The Handmaid's Tale is a good book to disuade the idea of a Christian theocracy. The danger of theocracy is that it makes leaders lazy. They compel outward compliance instead of working to convert the hearts. The man who wishes to murder but does not out of fear of the law is just as sinful as the man who acts on his wishes.

If you asked me that question, even a few months ago, I would have said "wonderful!! Just imagine, good morals at last! No more abortion, no more selfish rights, everyone would be compassionate and kind to one another. Bring it on."

However, I have recently been introduced to patriarchy and now believe very differently. In a theocracy the patriarchs would rule supreme. Women would be downtrodden, not allowed to work or hardly get an education. I, for one, would be torn away from my husband and children, because I am divorced and remarried. They would not see my marriage as valid. They would bring back stoning people to death. There would be so much bloodshed! Unmarried non-virgins would be stoned to death, and this would wipe out most of the unmarried female population. It would be horrible.

I am a Christian, and I sometimes despair at the state of the world, with so much hate, selfishness, greed, immorality and contempt for God's word, but I would rather it be the way it is than a theocracy. The Baptists believe in separation of church and state, because they believe that you cannot make someone become a Christian, and it must be a choice. I think there is alot of credit there.

Sopharos · Sep 1, 2004

raym,

I think they are irrelevent to the subject at hand. The subject is theocracy, not Christian teachings.

neocon · Sep 2, 2004

Amazing that so many Christians seem to prefer manmade law to Bible Law.

Philosoft · Sep 2, 2004

neocon said:
Amazing that so many Christians seem to prefer manmade law to Bible Law.

Where in the Bible does it say that the "Laws" proscribed for Christians ought to be enforced by the state?

Kaan · Sep 2, 2004

Amazing that so many Christians seem to prefer manmade law to Bible Law.

Yea, how evil is it that these Christains think that freedom should be for all, not just a single denomination of one religion.

Buzz Dixon · Sep 2, 2004

Only if I'm running it...

Kaan · Sep 2, 2004

And exactly what would you do as dictator for life?

Shane Roach · Sep 2, 2004

I guess my belief is that eventually I will. I look foreward to it. I just understand from the Bible that no proper such thing will exist in this world except for Christ's returning, assuming one believes in the literal Millenial reign. Which I think I do.

A lot of the Revelation is opaque to me, and people's explanations only seem to make it worse!

neocon · Sep 2, 2004

Philosoft said:
Where in the Bible does it say that the "Laws" proscribed for Christians ought to be enforced by the state?

Christians are to conduct their entire life in accord with God's Word- that includes how they exercise Citizenship. The Bible provides blueprints for the proper organisation si why would a Christian in a position to influence the State want to trust the flawed governing concepts of Fallen Men when those blueprints are available. Loving one's neighbor consists in dealing with them in a Godly (Law abidding) not in extending a mindless PC driven 'tolerance' of evil behaviours.

fragile one · Sep 2, 2004

I want to live in a democracy or a republic; I do not want to live in a theocracy. I would say the same thing even if I were a Christian. A theocracy is prone to severe abuse. If the United States became a theocracy of any kind, I would be on a plane back to Ireland very very fast, and never come back to the US. I'd also renounce my US citizenship as soon as the plane landed in Ireland.

Do you want to live in a Christian Theocracy?

I believe living in an American Christian Theocracy would be

Great, bring it on.

Only if it was run by my denomination, or one like it.

Only if it was a very general consensus and constrained by courts

Awful - my beliefs are just that, my beliefs I don't want to impose them on others.

Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

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