Do you trust God or Man when it comes to the creation?

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Ok then based off your own logic here

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This is not my "logic" this is my interpretation of scripture when we are told as you judge you will be judged.

Matthew 7:2 "For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you."

Diamond7 said:

The universe can expand faster than the speed of light in certain contexts, as allowed by the principles of cosmology and general relativity.

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God could do it however he chose - but once distance is affected by expansion faster than light - one cannot simply measure the distance and equate that to elapsed time.

Diamond7 said:

This concept is often misunderstood because it seems to contradict our everyday understanding of how objects move through space. However, the expansion of the universe involves the stretching of space itself,

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True. My argument is not about "How " something goes faster than light. My argument is that once distance between two points is affected by a faster-than-light separation then you can no longer equate distance with time. Which was the case that SavedByGrace3 was trying to make about a hard-and-fast correlation between distance and time - which does not work once you admit that faster-than-light separation is in the mix. (No matter the mechanism you suppose for how that happened)

Diamond7 said:

This is not my "logic" ...

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True. Logic does not start with or belong to a person.
Errors:
* It is an interesting theory by some that the logic of God is somehow different from the logic of men.
Logic is logic regardless of whose mind the thoughts flow through.
* Others suggest that the logic and thoughts of God are somehow beyond the ability of men to comprehend. As if there is something about the nature of the words and logic of God that renders them incomprehensible to men. I would suggest all this is false. The logic of God, when obtained by men, is exactly the same for both. As I said above, logic is logic regardless of whose mind it flows through.
* Still others suggest that God is "too big" to understand. They would state that they would not want a God they could understand. As if ignorance is a holy virtue. Again, I must disagree. There is nothing about the nature of God's truth that renders it impossible for us to comprehend. There is no individual truth about God, or from God that is "too big" to understand. The only difference is that God has all the information, and we do not. We are vexed with "mysteries," which are nothing but hidden truths. If we had all the information, we could understand it because we have the same ability to understand truth as He does. He gave us that ability. Logic understands itself.
* Others insist that not everything God says and does will make sense to us. Again, I disagree. Everything God says and does makes perfect sense. There is nothing illogical in God, and there is nothing God does or says that does not make perfect sense. If it makes sense to God, it also makes sense to us. The logic is the same whether it flows through the mind of God or the mind of men.
* There is a difference in capacity. Obviously, we will never have the capacity to hold the amount of information that He does. But if we did, we would see that everything is completely logical and makes perfect sense.
So when we engage in these discussions about truth and logic, it is a breach to suggest that one person is using "men's logic" and others are using "God's logic." There is no difference. Truth, logic, and reality are the same regardless of who says or possesses it. If a person has truth, It is a bogus argument to say one person is "trusting God" while another is "trusting man." If a thing is true, it does not matter who says it. Truth is truth. Logic is logic. It stands on its own merit.

SavedByGrace3 said:

Logic does not start with or belong to a person.

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Logic is not in the Bible. WE do read about wisdom. God gives us wisdom so we can understand His creation.

In a general sense, "wisdom" in creation refers to the idea that the natural world exhibits order, complexity, and purpose, suggesting a higher intelligence or guiding principle. This concept has been present in various philosophical and religious traditions throughout history. The intricate design, balance, and interconnectedness observed in the universe can be interpreted as evidence of a wise and intelligent creator.

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Brothers and Sisters, greetings. Today I am going to present evidence for why I think we should trust the Bible and it's creation account as literal, meaning that the Earth is just several thousand years old, just over 6,000 to be more precise. Firstly let me just say that I do not think this issue is a matter of salvation, and therefore not essential, but I fear not trusting the Bible in this regard only helps the adversary further weaken our resolve and understanding when it comes to other issues.

Ok, so science (or the world) describes the Earth as being billions of years old. Lets see what the Bible says.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Now, scripture does tell us that a thousand years is like a day to God.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

When you consider the word "day" H3117 from the Genesis passage, it could be either literal or figurative, however looking at the words "evening" H6153 and "morning" H1242 there is much less room for interpretation and scripture seems to be pointing to an actual 24 hour day. The issue with people accepting this though, is because I would say for must of us, for our entire lives, we've been taught that the Bible is wrong, and science is right. However the creation story provides a completely contrary explanation for how we got here. Take for example that God created Earth on the first day, but made the stars on the fourth, not to mention making plants on the third!

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

According to science, how could God of made the earth, filled with plants, before he made the sun, moon, and stars? We must remember that God is all powerful and is not constrained by the laws of creation, as He is the one who made them. We are also told the Earth was made out of water; are we just to disregard that because science says otherwise?

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Again we see that a thousand years to God is like one day, we will come back to this in a bit. Before we do, lets address wisdom, or being wise. Are we, who are sinful and wicked, wise? Or is wisdom given to us through God. Basically are we "wise" in the ways and beliefs of the world, or are we "wise" in the ways of God? To paraphrase Jesus, we are in the world, but not of the world (John 17:14-16).

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pro 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

All of these scriptures point to the fact that God gives us wisdom. Therefor if someone is wise, that is because they are wise in the ways of the Lord. See for instance the Jeremiah reference; they had rejected the Word of the Lord, and they had no wisdom!

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cor 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Scripture clearly seems to clearly be rebuking what the "world" considers wise, because it is opposed to the truth of God. We should not be surprised by this because scripture also tells us that Satan is the ruler of this world.

2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

So if Satan is running this earth (for a time), should we be surprised if the whole earth is teaching something that is contrary to God and his Word? Something that only causes people to fall away or not believe? We as followers of Christ, should forget what we think we know, and look to God's word for understanding. Do you prefer words from scientists and doctors over the words of God? If you read a difficult passage that doesn't fit your understanding do you disregard it because the world says otherwise?

I know some of you are still wondering, what about dinosaurs and fossils man!? We know, because of scripture, that there were giants before and after the flood.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Deu 3:13 And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

Not only were there giant men walking the earth after the flood, there were also giant plants and fruit.
Num 13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.

Would it then be safe to assume if there were giant people and plants, there were giant animals as well? I think this more than satisfies how we could have "dinosaur" bones. What about the ageing though, the fossil record? Again, do you trust man or God? A great resource for fossilization, and a man much more versed on the subject than myself, I feel provides a very concise explanation and I will link a short video here.

So, the last reason I think the earth is only over 6,000 years is because the signs of the times. I think we are in the last days. Just as God made the Earth in a literal week, he will bring about its completion in a figurative week. Meaning, its been almost 2,000 years since the death and resurection of Jesus Christ. We are now in the figurative third day. We have already read how 1,000 years is like a single day to God. When did Jesus rise from the dead? On the third day. When will he return? On the third (figurative) day! Look around you and see the ever growing evil engulfing the earth! God's longsuffering is drawing to an end and Christ will be returning soon!

I will ask you one final time. Do you believe the Word of God, or the wisdom of man?

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1 Corinthians 3:19 New Living Translation (NLT)
For the wisdom of this world (men) is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, “He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness.”

We eagerly await His return. It will be like in the days of Noah ... the mind of man continuously evil .... certainly nearing that point.

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Do you trust God or Man when it comes to the creation?

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This seems to be a wrong question. We do not have any record of God describing how or when He created the universe.

Genesis is a written story by men. So Genesis vs science is rather "ancient cosmology/cosmogony vs modern cosmology", than "God vs men".

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

We see here for just one example, that God creates by speaking. He spoke creation into existence. Scripture was indeed written by men, but more importantly it was inspired by God.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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Dont you recognize that "God said, God did..." is the third person? Its not a record by God, it would be "I said, I did...".

Its a story written by men, describing their ideas what happened.

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

How do you balance that with 2Timothy 3:16?

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Its useful theologically (monoteism, God as creator), but not scientifically, science was not the genre of that era. Mythology was the genre of that era, a very favorite one.

Diamond7 said:

Logic is not in the Bible. WE do read about wisdom. God gives us wisdom so we can understand His creation.

In a general sense, "wisdom" in creation refers to the idea that the natural world exhibits order, complexity, and purpose, suggesting a higher intelligence or guiding principle. This concept has been present in various philosophical and religious traditions throughout history. The intricate design, balance, and interconnectedness observed in the universe can be interpreted as evidence of a wise and intelligent creator.

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Thank you for your response. I hope we can "reason" together and be "persuaded" that the entire Bible is one huge Logos (logical) word of God.

The Greek word in scripture is logos. We get our word logic from this word. It is used 325 times in the New Testament.

The best verse in context is, I think:

1 Peter 3:15 KJV
15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every
man that asketh you a reason (logos) of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

We have to have a logical reason for what and why we believe. It is impossible to speak and reason with people without logic.

Isaiah 1:18 KJV
18. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

There are many other instances where the concept of "reason" or "logos/logic" is used in scripture. Some verses in the OT use the word "argue" to describe the action.

Paul reasoned with people constantly. He used logic and reason to persuade them:

Acts 18:4 KJV
4. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 28:23 KJV
23. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging;
to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

I love this:

Acts 17:2-3 KJV
2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days
reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3. Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again
from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

In his discussion of doctrine in Heb 5, Paul uses forms of the word "logos" to describe the Word of God and doctrinal maturity.

Hebrews 5:11-13 KJV
11. Of whom we have many things to say (logos), and hard to be uttered (legō),
seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need
that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles (logion)
of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word (logos) of righteousness:
for he is a babe.

The logic construct "If - then" is used over 670 times in scripture.
This means if one thing is true, then a second is assumed. That is logic.
If the sun is up, then it is day.

Just a couple:
Deuteronomy 25:1 KJV
1. If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment,
that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous,
and condemn the wicked.

Judges 4:8 KJV
8. And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go:
but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.

Most famously:
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
14. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray,
and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven,
and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

This is "reasoning together." It is "persuading." It is "logic."



Among other things, Vines has this:

Vines
Word
1. logos (G3056) denotes (I) "the expression of thought"—not the mere name of an object—(a) as embodying a conception or idea, e.g., Luk_7:7; ....


Strong's
G3056
λόγος
logos
Total KJV Occurrences: 325
word, 173 words, 48 saying, 33 sayings, 16 account, 8 speech, 8 matter, 4 utterance, 4 things, 3 communication, 2 reason, 2 thing, 2 work, 2 cause, 1 communications, 1 concerning, 1 do, 1 doctrine, 1 fame, 1 intent, 1 mouth, 1 move, 1 preaching, 1 question, 1 reckoneth, 1 rumour, 1 say, 1 show, 1 speaker, 1 talk, 1 tidings, 1 treatise, 1

myst33 said:

Dont you recognize that "God said, God did..." is the third person? Its not a record by God, it would be "I said, I did...".

Its a story written by men, describing their ideas what happened.

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Interesting point.

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Not just comitting evil continually, but there were fallen angels and giants in those days as well. Hmmm.... fallen angels.... Does that sound like a current phenomena that is being pushed through the news and media as of late?

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

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the sons of God were the descendents of Seth that were true to the Lord. The daughters of men were the daughters of Cain's descendents who had not the knowledge of God preserved.

men (not angels) of renown

In Genesis 4 and 5 the human race is divided into two main groups: the descendants of Cain (Gen. 4: 17-24) and the descendants of Seth
( verses 25, 26).

In Genesis 6:1,2 this division is referring to those who followed the Lord as “sons of God” and to the rest of humanity as “men.”

Nothing in the immediate context suggests the “sons of God” are kings, angels, or heavenly beings.

Two lineages came from Adam and Eve .... one persued the Lord ... the other did not.

Angels do not procreate .... neither marry or are given in marriage ... so says Jesus.

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Look man, all I am trying to do as ask a serious question, that may ruffle some feathers, but I genuinely want to know

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What do you want to know?

SavedByGrace3 said:

Thank you for your response. I hope we can "reason" together and be "persuaded" that the entire Bible is one huge Logos (logical) word of God.

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Yes, ok, Logical does come from Logos. Only the word of God is actually Hebrew, not Greek.

Genesis 11
"5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”"

We see a lot of that confusion on Christian websites.

Greek is a good language though. It is exact and precise. A military language used to conquer the world.

eleos1954 said:

In Genesis 4 and 5 the human race is divided into two main groups: the descendants of Cain (Gen. 4: 17-24) and the descendants of Seth
( verses 25, 26).

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What does Genesis 4 mean "I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” ". Who was Cain worried about that would kill him?

We are told in Deuteronomy 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people".

The Hour IS AT HAND said:

Angels abiding in the Word of God don't procreate or marry, yet the fallen angels did.

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Does the Bible call them fallen angels? Adam had the breath of life. Science tells us that Adam and Eve or the Semetic people were not the only people alive at that time in the Tigris Euphrates river valley.

The Sumerians and Semitic people lived in ancient Mesopotamia at the same time, the dynamics between them evolved as different empires and civilizations rose and fell. The interplay of cultural, linguistic, and political factors shaped the history of this region over millennia.

Diamond7 said:

Yes, ok, Logical does come from Logos. Only the word of God is actually Hebrew, not Greek.

Genesis 11
"5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”"

We see a lot of that confusion on Christian websites.

Greek is a good language though. It is exact and precise. A military language used to conquer the world.


What does Genesis 4 mean "I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” ". Who was Cain worried about that would kill him?

We are told in Deuteronomy 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people".

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Thanks for the question D7! Good topic for studious believers!
I hold to Theistic Evolution, and with that, I believe that men existed on the earth on day 6 before God created Adam and Eve in the Garden. I refer to them as "earth people" as opposed to the "spirit people" God placed in the Garden.
This solves many of the questions, such as the one you asked. Cain feared these "earth-people" who evolved from the beasts of the field. Adam and Eves's children married these "earth people" and built the cities that appeared to already exist before Adam and Eve were created.
Peace