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Job 33:6

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And yes that is correct, ancient humans did not write words. And so they also did not have a record of time no more than a bird has a record of time or a salamander. But time passes for them none the less. Whether they are aware of it or not.

We know this because we have bones of people in the Earth and they are without written documents or etched documents on Stone etc. and because they are super positionally deeper in the earth we conclude that they are older then superpositionally more shallow bones of people in cemeteries of today.

Now I'm going to reread my post for talk-to-text typos.
 
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RTP76

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The statement is inferred
Just removing all the extra and boiling down to a short/direct answer ;)

Nobody is questioning the logic in the deductive reasoning process, but the assumptions from which the logic & deductive reasoning is built upon.

Yes it is logically deduced that these events would take millions of years. But I would say that it is a reasonable deduction, given that everything we have ever known and observed about physical reality supports it (the theory of plate tectonics).
So if it is reasonable to imagine a never-before-seen millions-of-years process produce a result, are you suggesting it is less reasonable to believe a supernatural act by God could accomplish the same in less time, in light of said supernatural act is written in the account of history describing the origin of the universe and life (with specificity as to length of time involved) and that this account is from the same God who claimed to have performed said act?
 
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Job 33:6

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"So if it is reasonable to imagine a never-before-seen millions-of-years process"

Yes, it is...if you see a glacial moraine, good luck arguing that it wasn't made by a glacier.

"are you suggesting it is less reasonable to believe a supernatural act by God could accomplish the same in less time"

God can hypothetically do anything.

But of course the question isn't about what God can do, it's a question of what God did do.

"in light of said supernatural act is written in the account of history"

No interpretation of any written account of anything, should ever take precedence over what we physically observe with our own two eyes (specifically in scenarios where the two conflict).

And I'll give a couple examples and reasons why:

First, I'll start with Muslims. They believe that their prophet rode a flying donkey across the middle east. Some Hindus believe that earth hatched from a lotus flower.

Why? Not because of anything they've seen, but rather because they've prioritized what they've interpreted in their respective scriptures, in place of what they've observed with their own two eyes (donkeys don't have wings, lotus flowers do not hatch planets).

As Christians, we immediately have to be careful and have set ourselves apart and need to "raise the bar" on what it means to be faithful, and also...intelligent.

Example number 2:

I gave this example before, but imagine that I write in a letter to you, the phrase "I have a cake in the oven". You open the letter and what do you think about?

A carrot cake? Perhaps with strawberry icing? A chocolate cake (my personal favorite)? Vanilla? Do you imagine a smell? How about a taste? What shape is it? A bunt cake? Round? Square? Is it warm and moist?

The truth is that the factual statement "I have a cake in the oven" can mean countless different things. It could even be used in an announcement of pregnancy.

So here is the point. If you came over to my house, I could show you that cake for you to see with your own two eyes, and there would be no mistaking the flavor, the size and shape, the smell, taste, moistness etc.

Observing with your own two eyes, will without question, give you a far more clear understanding of a concept, than simply reading about it. 100% of the time. Because it's a first hand experience, versus 2nd hand, 3rd hand etc.


I'll give one more example/reason:

Without observation, people could hypothetically believe in literally anything.

Some people believe in the lochness monster. Some believe in Bigfoot. Some believe in...the boogeymonster hiding under their bed. Some believe that aliens make crop circles in our corn fields. Some people believe in Atlantis (the underwater city of mermaids). Some believe in astrology and...psychic palm readings.

These above concepts are examples of things that people believe in, because they've read about it or have been told about it, but they haven't actually experienced it. They're willing to believe in things because they've prioritised their imagination and interpretation of literature over what they see with their own eyes.

And this, I would say is not only unreasonable, but also in some cases even dangerous for the individual and for society.

So back to the original point. If I see Africa and south America shaped like puzzle pieces, moving away from one another. And I see that rocks of Africa and south America are a 1:1 match, and I see mid oceanic rift unfolding before my eyes. We don't need a time machine to understand what is going on and what has come to pass.

If you see glacial moraines and glacial till and glacial striations suggesting 5-10 recent back to back ice ages. You don't need a time machine to understand that there is a long history that has passed.

And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
 
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LoG

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And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.

The truth of it though is that it is all subjective interpretations. Without a date stamp and eyewitness account on any of those geological aspects, we are left with best guesses of how, when and why they came to be the way they are. I say that as someone who accepts from both scripture and the physical evidences, that there have/has been previous creation(s) prior to the one we are living in.

I ran across this interesting article that points out what I am trying to say:

Excerpt: Long before the discovery of the scablands, geologists dismissed the role of catastrophic floods in interpreting European geology. By the end of the 19th century such ideas not only were out of fashion but were geological heresy. When J Harlen Bretz uncovered evidence of giant floods in eastern Washington in the 1920s, it took most of the 20th century for other geologists to believe him. Geologists had so thoroughly vilified the concept of great floods that they could not believe it when somebody actually found evidence of one.
Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous


The article isn't verifying a global flood or dating it but points out that the subjective opinions of a 100 years of geologists wouldn't even allow them to consider any clear evidence of large flood waters. Science may be self correcting but considering that it took them almost a century to do so, I for one wouldn't put too much of an emphasis on what they write and would certainly not discount the historical aspects of the bible because current theories of the earth sciences haven't as yet realized the truth of it.
 
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Job 33:6

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The truth of it though is that it is all subjective interpretations. Without a date stamp and eyewitness account on any of those geological aspects, we are left with best guesses of how, when and why they came to be the way they are. I say that as someone who accepts from both scripture and the physical evidences, that there have/has been previous creation(s) prior to the one we are living in.

I ran across this interesting article that points out what I am trying to say:

Excerpt: Long before the discovery of the scablands, geologists dismissed the role of catastrophic floods in interpreting European geology. By the end of the 19th century such ideas not only were out of fashion but were geological heresy. When J Harlen Bretz uncovered evidence of giant floods in eastern Washington in the 1920s, it took most of the 20th century for other geologists to believe him. Geologists had so thoroughly vilified the concept of great floods that they could not believe it when somebody actually found evidence of one.
Biblical-Type Floods Are Real, and They're Absolutely Enormous


The article isn't verifying a global flood or dating it but points out that the subjective opinions of a 100 years of geologists wouldn't even allow them to consider any clear evidence of large flood waters. Science may be self correcting but considering that it took them almost a century to do so, I for one wouldn't put too much of an emphasis on what they write and would certainly not discount the historical aspects of the bible because current theories of the earth sciences haven't as yet realized the truth of it.

I agree that there is some degree of subjectivity. Another example, people thought Alfred Wegner was crazy when he proposed plate tectonics. People used to think that the idea of ice ages was crazy too. But then we observed mid oceanic rifting and we observed the formation of moraines and striations etc.

But there are a few key points here, and you mentioned the one.

One point is that:

Our understanding of science has become more and more advanced with time.


What we are witnessing, including in your own example, is growth and advancement in scientific knowledge as old ideas are defeated by testing, analysis and observation that affirms more accurate ideas.

Science had been in progression. And this is why everything is considered as theory as opposed to fact. The theory of earth for example.

Before the earth was understood to be billions of years old, continual estimates suggested ages in the millions and hundreds of millions. So there is some wiggle room for subjectivity as people advance in knowledge and understanding.

But We aren't going backwards. Space shuttles are making their way further and further into space, not the other way around (as an analogy).

The second point:

These are extensively well established and logically consistent concepts.

Uniformitarianism has been around since the 1700s. And things like kinematics and general physics and chemistry behind orogenic processes...these aren't concepts that are new to us or that haven't stood the tests and challenges of time. They've been around for a long time and have given us an incredible amount of insight into the formation of the earth. Far more than I think most people are generally aware of.

And my third point is this:

As science has advanced over the past 300 years, these ideas continue to depict an old earth. And when I say old, understand that I mean, for all practical purposes, so utterly and rediculously old, that no honest person could logically confuse what we see with a 6,000 year old earth. Not without complete denial of countless laws in biology, chemistry, physics, geology, geography and more.

This isn't a discussion over if the planet is 6,000 years old versus 10,000 or 100,000 or even a million years old. We are talking about a discussion between an earth that is 6,000 years old and an earth that is...not hundreds of thousands, not millions, not hundreds of millions, but indeed, Billions of years old. And the features of the earth, attest to it's grand age.

The subjective wiggle room that exists in developing science, has long ago surpassed the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old. We are landing spacecrafts on Mars, while the idea of a 6,000 year old earth...it's like making the first wooden boat.

We are extensively well past this idea. Even with wiggle room, we are well beyond the 6,000 year old consideration.

The science is well established, it is logically consistent, it continually directs us toward an ancient earth and has done so for over 300 years (without backtracking).

And the example of the scablands is great. But notice, even it's age is like a speck of dust in the ocean that is earth history. Even in times of debate in science, it doesn't even approach, even in the slightest bit, the idea that the earth is not ancient.


So I agree with wiggle room in interpretations of some things in science as we learn and advance. But I don't think this is a worthwhile response that would warrant the consideration of young earth ideas. Maybe if we were back in the 1800s having this discussion. But not in today's age.
 
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Job 33:6

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@LoG

And on your post, I suppose someone could believe that maybe some day, all of physics, chemistry, geology, geography, biology and more, will be turned on their heads by an incredible discovery.

Personally, as a geologist, there's no way that I would take that bet.

And at the end of the day, the difference between the wiggle room in the advance of science, and second and third hand subjective interpretation of written word, is that one is in continual progression and advancement through objective testing and observation.

Eventually in science we reach a point where a rock is hard and the wiggle room in understanding that declines to nothing. You can only test a rock so many ways before you come to agreement on how much pressure and heat is needed to bend It or break It or metamorphose it.

And this is what sets science apart from belief without the scientific method and without observation. There is wiggle room but with testing an observation we eliminate false options.
 
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RTP76

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God can hypothetically do anything.

But of course the question isn't about what God can do, it's a question of what God did do.
So if the question is what God did do, are you saying it is more reasonable to base what God did by applying a set of presuppositional assumptions to arrive at an inferred conclusion (as opposed to what He directly claimed to have done within His word)?

"in light of said supernatural act is written in the account of history"

No interpretation of any written account of anything, should ever take precedence over what we physically observe with our own two eyes (specifically in scenarios where the two conflict).
We've already established that millions-of-years processes were not physically observed. Should, for example, no one believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (after Lazarus being dead for 4 days) because all observation of their own two eyes contradicts such an idea?

And I'll give a couple examples and reasons why:

First, I'll start with Muslims. They believe that their prophet rode a flying donkey across the middle east. Some Hindus believe that earth hatched from a lotus flower.

Why? Not because of anything they've seen, but rather because they've prioritized what they've interpreted in their respective scriptures, in place of what they've observed with their own two eyes (donkeys don't have wings, lotus flowers do not hatch planets).
This may help contribute in supporting why Islam is not a true faith in the one true God, but none of this is referenced in God's word so I have a hard time following where a set of false beliefs in a false religion somehow demonstrates that God's word is also false.

As Christians, we immediately have to be careful and have set ourselves apart and need to "raise the bar" on what it means to be faithful, and also...intelligent.
Are you now adding that those who believe in the scriptural account of creation are not intelligent, and that in contrast, believing a millions-of-years process never observed is a demonstration of intelligence?

Example number 2:

I gave this example before, but imagine that I write in a letter to you, the phrase "I have a cake in the oven". You open the letter and what do you think about?

A carrot cake? Perhaps with strawberry icing? A chocolate cake (my personal favorite)? Vanilla? Do you imagine a smell? How about a taste? What shape is it? A bunt cake? Round? Square? Is it warm and moist?

The truth is that the factual statement "I have a cake in the oven" can mean countless different things. It could even be used in an announcement of pregnancy.

So here is the point. If you came over to my house, I could show you that cake for you to see with your own two eyes, and there would be no mistaking the flavor, the size and shape, the smell, taste, moistness etc.

Observing with your own two eyes, will without question, give you a far more clear understanding of a concept, than simply reading about it. 100% of the time. Because it's a first hand experience, versus 2nd hand, 3rd hand etc.
As previously indicated, a millions-of-years process has not been observed. Further, we've already established that God provided specificity as to length of time. In addition to what is clearly laid out in Genesis 1, see 4th commandment as described in Exodus 20:8-11.

I'll give one more example/reason:

Without observation, people could hypothetically believe in literally anything.
Such as... believing millions-of-years processes? Or believing that people who have been dead for 4 days really are dead and cannot be brought back to life?

Some people believe in the lochness monster. Some believe in Bigfoot. Some believe in...the boogeymonster hiding under their bed. Some believe that aliens make crop circles in our corn fields. Some people believe in Atlantis (the underwater city of mermaids). Some believe in astrology and...psychic palm readings.

These above concepts are examples of things that people believe in, because they've read about it or have been told about it, but they haven't actually experienced it. They're willing to believe in things because they've prioritised their imagination and interpretation of literature over what they see with their own eyes.
Are you now adding that believing God miraculously created the universe and life itself in the way/timing God tells in His word is the equivalent of believing in things like the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot?

Also, the [literal] interpretation of Genesis is supported throughout both the OT and NT, are you suggesting all of these authors are also incorrect, that their inspiration from the Holy Spirit was transcribed consistently incorrectly (always erroneously portrayed as real places/people/events)?

So back to the original point. If I see Africa and south America shaped like puzzle pieces, moving away from one another. And I see that rocks of Africa and south America are a 1:1 match, and I see mid oceanic rift unfolding before my eyes. We don't need a time machine to understand what is going on and what has come to pass.

If you see glacial moraines and glacial till and glacial striations suggesting 5-10 recent back to back ice ages. You don't need a time machine to understand that there is a long history that has passed.

And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
What you're describing here is uniformitarianism, which is an interpretive framework (a presuppositional view) widely used within geology, which is not the same as having physically observed a process beginning to end, as you put it, "with your own two eyes"--it is a linear extrapolation to imagine past events that cannot be presently observed. The Bible; however, does not portray earth's beginning nor past as being uniformitarian and/or gradual. In contrast, the Bible portrays, very clearly and specifically, a supernatural creation absent describing any known natural process as producing said creation, including the creation of life. Further, the Bible describes a judgment on all living flesh on land, from God, which describes a processes that would have significant geological implications.

God very clearly claims to have laid down the foundations of the world (Job 38:4) and also very clearly states the span of creation occurring over 6 days (Exodus 20:11). Is your ask/appeal to Christians here that in order they present as intelligent, they abandon these biblical truths in favor of placing faith in the uniformitarian framework lest they continue to present a danger to other individuals and society at large?
 
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Are you now adding that those who believe in the scriptural account of creation are not intelligent, and that in contrast, believing a millions-of-years process never observed is a demonstration of intelligence?

1 Corinthians 1:19 For so it stands written, "I will exhibit the nothingness of the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought."

I am very convinced that our trust in Gods intelligence is called for, not an ability to persuade other people of our own.
 
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Job 33:6

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"So if the question is what God did do, are you saying it is more reasonable to base what God did by applying a set of presuppositional assumptions to arrive at an inferred conclusion (as opposed to what He directly claimed to have done within His word)?"-RTP

I'll just requote myself.

Yes, it is...if you see a glacial moraine, good luck arguing that it wasn't made by a glacier.

So back to the original point. If I see Africa and south America shaped like puzzle pieces, moving away from one another at a set rate. And I see that rocks of Africa and south America are a 1:1 match, and I see mid oceanic rift splitting before my eyes. We don't need a time machine to understand what is going on and what has come to pass.

If you see glacial moraines, till, and striations suggesting 5-10 back to back ice ages. You don't need a time machine to understand that there is a long history that has passed.

If you see Hawaiian islands, the young islands growing from volcanism and older eroding away, and you see a trail of prehistoric Hawaiian islands going all the way up to Alaska...etc.

You just don't need a time machine to understand what has unfolded in the past. No more than you need a time machine to understand that someone has hiatprically walking through snow if you see foot tracks behind them.


Google Image Result for http://previews.123rf.com/images/zurijeta/zurijeta1109/zurijeta110900365/10680862-Walking-in-snow-Stock-Photo-snow-child.jpg



If we see destroyed cars on the road, do we need a time machine to infer what has unfolded? No, of course not, the cars collided. Based on the state, we can gauge the speed in which they've collided, the angles of the collision, the force behind the collision, the time it took to unfold etc. We can do the same with mountains.

And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
 
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Job 33:6

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"Should, for example, no one believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (after Lazarus being dead for 4 days) because all observation of their own two eyes contradicts such an idea?" -RTP

What each individual does with their knowledge of an ancient earth, ultimately is up to them. It's important to start with what you know, then build faith thereafter, rather than shape what you know around pre existing faith.

We have to prioritize how we understand the world around us. Beginning with physically real evidence, then intellectual extrapolation afterwards. Not in a reverse order.

One difference that I'll point out though, is that in the case of the earth, we have residual evidence. Evidence remaining from past events, that helps us understand events that have passed.

With the resurrection however, we do not. For example:

We have fossils suggesting descent with modification. And we use those fossils to conclude that animals died in the past, and didn't come back to life.

We do not however have bones of Jesus, nor a body. We do not have blatant evidence to the contrary of the idea that Jesus was resurrected. Most certainly not in the case of a spiritual resurrection, and not in the case of a physical resurrection either.

So the two concepts are not equivalant in that there is evidence on earth for us to view to understand it's ancient age, in contradiction of a 6,000 year old earth. Whereas we do not have evidence remaining to affirm that Jesus in fact did not rise from the dead.

Regardless, what each person decides to do is up to them. Regardless of how difficult of a challenge it presents to Christians, it's a challenge we must adapt to, rather than putting on our aviators and turning a blind eye.

Remember, this is God's creation. Man didn't create these features that depict an ancient earth, such as striations. It isn't a matter of deferring to the knowledge of man. It is matter of deferring to direct observation of creation to tell us the story. And as we know, direct observation will always give a more clear picture than a second or third hand interpretation of written word. Just as seeing the cake in my over will give a more clear picture than me simply telling you about it.
 
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Job 33:6

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""What you're describing here is uniformitarianism, which is an interpretive framework (a presuppositional view) widely used within geology, which is not the same as having physically observed a process beginning to end, as you put it, "with your own two eyes"--it is a linear extrapolation to imagine past events that cannot be presently observed"

As ive mentioned before. If we have glacial striations, till, moraines, drop stones etc., We don't need a time machine to understand that glaciers have advanced in a location.

This is just one of the many examples I've given, but until you can address this, you aren't justified in suggesting that such a position is unreasonable just because we don't have a time machine.

The truth is that past events have left us with plenty of evidence demonstrating their occurance. And their occurrences collectively depict an extraordinarily old age.
 
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RTP76

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1 Corinthians 1:19 For so it stands written, "I will exhibit the nothingness of the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought."

I am very convinced that our trust in Gods intelligence is called for, not an ability to persuade other people of our own.
Agreed, thank you for your faith and encouragement to myself and others here.
 
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RTP76

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"So if the question is what God did do, are you saying it is more reasonable to base what God did by applying a set of presuppositional assumptions to arrive at an inferred conclusion (as opposed to what He directly claimed to have done within His word)?"-RTP

I'll just requote myself.
....
.......
And if these collective events that have come to pass, depict an extraordinary age of earth, then it is what is. And we should take the observations of ice ages and angular unconformities and sea level changes and varves and biogeographic distributions, and continental drift etc. And it should absolutely take precedence over a second or third hand subjective interpretation of written word. Hands down.
How interesting.

Can/should we conclude your position then is to lean on your own understanding then?
 
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RTP76

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"Should, for example, no one believe Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (after Lazarus being dead for 4 days) because all observation of their own two eyes contradicts such an idea?" -RTP

What each individual does with their knowledge of an ancient earth, ultimately is up to them. It's important to start with what you know, then build faith thereafter, rather than shape what you know around pre existing faith.

We have to prioritize how we understand the world around us. Beginning with physically real evidence, then intellectual extrapolation afterwards. Not in a reverse order.
What you've written here is a logic error. It makes no sense to start with what we know. A billion people right now 'know' there is no God, but they're all wrong. Billions other 'know' their god(s) are the truth, but they're all wrong. "Mr Evidence" (yourself) has no irrefutable proof that God exists or that He is the one true God--you don't. You and I may go to our graves knowing Jesus is the Christ and the Son of the only true and living God, but we [ultimately] believe that by faith, knowing that the Bible is true. We've already confirmed that no one observed millions-of-years processes, so by necessity the only option is an extrapolation afterwards. Your faith (your assurance of things hoped and conviction of things not seen) is that your geological interpretive framework as taught by your professors (and theirs, and theirs...) is true.

One difference that I'll point out though, is that in the case of the earth, we have residual evidence. Evidence remaining from past events, that helps us understand events that have passed.
The evidence isn't speaking for itself, you are applying an interpretive framework to the evidence.

With the resurrection however, we do not. For example:

We have fossils suggesting descent with modification. And we use those fossils to conclude that animals died in the past, and didn't come back to life.

We do not however have bones of Jesus, nor a body. We do not have blatant evidence to the contrary of the idea that Jesus was resurrected. Most certainly not in the case of a spiritual resurrection, and not in the case of a physical resurrection either.
Is your belief then that Jesus rose from the dead based upon what is written in scripture, or based on a lack of physical evidence (his bones)? To clarify and not to get too off track: when the bible references resurrections, it is always a physical (bodily) resurrection (not spiritually)--the idea of a spiritual resurrection is just a spoken convention to convey the idea of that which was dead returning to life... but to be clear, Jesus rose physically/bodily and we will also have physical bodies when we live in eternity.

So the two concepts are not equivalant in that there is evidence on earth for us to view to understand it's ancient age, in contradiction of a 6,000 year old earth. Whereas we do not have evidence remaining to affirm that Jesus in fact did not rise from the dead.

Regardless, what each person decides to do is up to them. Regardless of how difficult of a challenge it presents to Christians, it's a challenge we must adapt to, rather than putting on our aviators and turning a blind eye.
You do not have evidence affirming an old earth. What you have is a philosophy by which you interpret evidence that leads you to believe the earth is old (turning a blind eye to what is clearly written in scripture). Only 8 people saw the flood and lived to tell about it. As such the flood narrative exists in every major culture around the world in some form and all affirm the major components of the biblical account. You can try to imagine it did not happen, but you have nothing by comparison to validate so this just becomes yet another imagined linear extrapolation you compare against your presupposed interpretive framework and so, in short, it's just one set of imagined events trumping a different set of imagined events--interesting, but I guess this is what is considered the conventional wisdom and intelligence of our time.

Remember, this is God's creation. Man didn't create these features that depict an ancient earth, such as striations. It isn't a matter of deferring to the knowledge of man. It is matter of deferring to direct observation of creation to tell us the story. And as we know, direct observation will always give a more clear picture than a second or third hand interpretation of written word. Just as seeing the cake in my over will give a more clear picture than me simply telling you about it.
I agree, this is God's creation, and so it seems reasonable that His word would be the authority on it. I know you believe God's word is the authority as it relates to your sin, your need for a savior, and that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior that you will spend eternity with Him. I also know that you pick and choose what you accept as authoritative from scripture: In some cases it is God on the "spiritual stuff", in some cases it is you (for the "physical stuff"). General revelation (what you observe... which again, wasn't millions-of-years processes) is never authoritative over special revelation (God's word).
 
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RTP76

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""What you're describing here is uniformitarianism, which is an interpretive framework (a presuppositional view) widely used within geology, which is not the same as having physically observed a process beginning to end, as you put it, "with your own two eyes"--it is a linear extrapolation to imagine past events that cannot be presently observed"

As ive mentioned before. If we have glacial striations, till, moraines, drop stones etc., We don't need a time machine to understand that glaciers have advanced in a location.

This is just one of the many examples I've given, but until you can address this, you aren't justified in suggesting that such a position is unreasonable just because we don't have a time machine.

The truth is that past events have left us with plenty of evidence demonstrating their occurance. And their occurrences collectively depict an extraordinarily old age.
The truth is found in God's word and while people can discover additional truths not revealed specifically in scripture, conclusions from general revelation that contradict special revelation are always going to be in error.

We are in fact told that God's word is always true (Proverbs 30:5), and so like Jonah in the belly of the great fish Jesus was in the belly of the earth for 3 days (not 3 hours, not 3 minutes, not 3 billion years); so it was in the days of Noah so it will also be in the coming of the Son of Man (the judgment will not encompass a small locality but all will be judged), and we shall observe the Sabbath on the 7th day, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day (not 4.54 billion years).
 
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MrsFoundit

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a supernatural creation absent describing any known natural process as producing said creation, including the creation of life.

A supernatural creation also including the creation of time and decay.
 
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BroRoyVa79

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Yes, they were literal, existed in real history, real-life people and the events recorded in scripture that happened to them actually happened. Why else would Jesus, most importantly, refer to them as real-life people that lived and existed inside of real history.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Just curious. I really don't.
Adam and Eve were real, literal people that lived 5990 years ago. If we read the genealogies in the Bible Mary and her son Jesus were descended from Adam and Eve. This is why we have 1Tim2:15. They are clearly an archetype also, but this does not make them any less real or their story any less literal. They lived in the Tigris - Euphrates River valley and they were the beginning of many things. Farming, civilization, writing and so on. The plants and animals on Noah's ark are what we call domesticated. We can read about them in the Bible. History and Science goes a long way to explain to us what we are reading in our Bible. If we want to know more about Eden we can read our Biology book.
 
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