Do you think that the story of Adam and Eve literally happened?

[ZNP]

See above. Lots of dry land back then. The polar ice is still there, just a little smaller than it was. Still two places.

Still two places for the Earth as a whole, but not for a group of people moving into a place where the ice retreated. The Bible is not a geology textbook about the Earth, it is about man, from the very beginning to the New Jerusalem.

 

[ZNP]

To say that the gathering of the water into one place and as that happened the dry land appeared is describing the retreating of a glacier is not too figurative for people to understand. Have we really lost that much of our IQ?

 

[coffee4u]

Whenever you do say "God created the heavens and Earth in six days" you are actually quoting the Koran which says that.

The Bible says:
Exo_20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo_31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

It is a misquote made very often by YEC's

I wasn't making a quote from the Bible, I was merely saying creation took 6 days. If I was quoting I would add chapter and verse and I also make it blue.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Whenever you do say "God created the heavens and Earth in six days" you are actually quoting the Koran which says that.

The Bible says:
Exo_20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exo_31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

It is a misquote made very often by YEC's

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - What translation are you using?

New International Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Living Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Berean Study Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New King James Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

King James Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Good News Translation
In the beginning, when God created the universe,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, God created the universe.

NET Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

JPS Tanakh 1917
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

New American Standard 1977
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

American King James Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

Darby Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

English Revised Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

World English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

 

[ZNP]

But what I find even more interesting about the Adam and Eve story is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is really the tree of death. This is obviously figurative speech. Do you think this tree refers to the agricultural revolution? In that revolution we decide what plants are good and what are evil (weeds). Our solution is to kill any plants we think are evil and to propagate those plants we think are good.

 

[Tom 1]

But what I find even more interesting about the Adam and Eve story is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is really the tree of death. This is obviously figurative speech. Do you think this tree refers to the agricultural revolution? In that revolution we decide what plants are good and what are evil (weeds). Our solution is to kill any plants we think are evil and to propagate those plants we think are good.

I wonder if it's about something like the dawn of consciousness, or maybe the development of generalised intelligence or figurative/metaphorical thinking. In any case it seems to be about something fundamental in the way humans think and behave.

 

[summerville]

I wonder if it's about something like the dawn of consciousness, or maybe the development of generalised intelligence or figurative/metaphorical thinking. In any case it seems to be about something fundamental in the way humans think and behave.

Its been explained to me as an allegory about the transition between hunter/gatherers and farmers/herdsmen.

Their sin was not trusting in God's providence and planting crops to sustain themselves.

Pretty troubling IMO since God refused Cain's offering of first fruits of his farming.

 

[ZNP]

I wonder if it's about something like the dawn of consciousness, or maybe the development of generalised intelligence or figurative/metaphorical thinking. In any case it seems to be about something fundamental in the way humans think and behave.

It is, and the agricultural revolution was a fundamental shift from being hunter gatherers to being fixed to one place. The two civilizations cannot coexist, which is also shown when we were kicked out of the garden. In the Agricultural revolution you need to pen in your animals to protect them from wolves, foxes, etc. You hunt and kill these animals. you build barns to store your grain, you need endless tools and instruments and hard labor where you work by the sweat of your brow. Hunter gatherers don't need any of that. It turns out they were healthier, smarter, and worked less. Stealing and wars are a clear temptation with the agricultural revolution because you are storing great wealth in those barns. Horse thieves, cow thieves, grain thieves. It is hard if not impossible for a hunter gatherer tribe to muster an army since they don't have supplies, so they have skirmishes but that is about it. Empires like Alexander the Great, Ghenghis Khan, WWII, these things are only possible with an agricultural revolution. It is a tree of death. Likewise when this came to the US you saw how the hunter gatherers had to be displaced.

 

[Tom 1]

Its been explained to me as an allegory about the transition between hunter/gatherers and farmers/herdsmen.

Their sin was not trusting in God's providence and planting crops to sustain themselves.

Pretty troubling IMO since God refused Cain's offering of first fruits of his farming.

Yes I’ve heard that, but Adam and Eve were already ‘tending the garden’ and were apparently vegetarian, so I’m not sure if it fits.

 

[ZNP]

Yes I’ve heard that, but Adam and Eve were already ‘tending the garden’ and were apparently vegetarian, so I’m not sure if it fits.

Hunter gatherers tend the garden. The reason we had the dust bowl is because we didn't understand how to tend the prairie, the indians had figured out that control burns would protect against that kind of catastrophe. We ignored them. Also, we know that hunter gatherers had gardens. We think they were originally the "outhouse". They would wakeboarding through an area, eat the crops, then in the camp they would all dedicate in one area. A year later when they returned they would discover that this "outhouse" area now had all those crops they had been eating the previous year.

 

[ZNP]

Yes I’ve heard that, but Adam and Eve were already ‘tending the garden’ and were apparently vegetarian, so I’m not sure if it fits.

We also know that hunter gatherers would tend the herd. The American Indians tended the Buffalo, so although they didn't pen them, or brand them, or feed them, they still saw them as something to take care of.

 

[public hermit]

Wow, this thread became interesting, all the sudden. I've never considered the garden account in terms of the transition from hunter/gatherer to the agricultural revolution. Interesting.

 

[Tom 1]

Hunter gatherers tend the garden. The reason we had the dust bowl is because we didn't understand how to tend the prairie, the indians had figured out that control burns would protect against that kind of catastrophe. We ignored them. Also, we know that hunter gatherers had gardens. We think they were originally the "outhouse". They would wakeboarding through an area, eat the crops, then in the camp they would all dedicate in one area. A year later when they returned they would discover that this "outhouse" area now had all those crops they had been eating the previous year.

Could be? I'm just thinking out loud really. One of the main themes of the Gilgamesh epic appears to be the contrast between 'wildness' - living in harmony with nature - and civilisation, but the Genesis account seems to be about more than that.

 

[summerville]

I wonder if it's about something like the dawn of consciousness, or maybe the development of generalised intelligence or figurative/metaphorical thinking. In any case it seems to be about something fundamental in the way humans think and behave.

The Natufian culture dates from 13,000 to 7,000 BC. They lived in Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine..Jericho for one. By 11,00 BC they were building stone granaries and storing grains and chic peas. This is the earliest evidence for agriculture.. sort of the leading edge of that transition in the Levant ... to include the domestication of animals.. FYI they didn't have horses or camels.

 

[summerville]

Wow, this thread became interesting, all the sudden. I've never considered the garden account in terms of the transition from hunter/gatherer to the agricultural revolution. Interesting.

Take a minute to look up Natufian culture in the Levant.

 

[public hermit]

Take a minute to look up Natufian culture in the Levant.

I will. Thank you.

 

[The Barbarian]

Do you think this tree refers to the agricultural revolution?

Interesting idea. Many sociologists think agriculture was a disaster for humans, an innovation that changed our ways of living and brought in countless problems thereby, problems which we have only partially resolved.

The story of Cain and Abel seems to reflect the conflicts between the pastoral Hebrews, and the settled agriculturalists.

 

[ZNP]

The Natufian culture dates from 13,000 to 7,000 BC. They lived in Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine..Jericho for one. By 11,00 BC they were building stone granaries and storing grains and chic peas. This is the earliest evidence for agriculture.. sort of the leading edge of that transition in the Levant ... to include the domestication of animals.. FYI they didn't have horses or camels.

To Schmidt and others, these new findings suggest a novel theory of civilization. Scholars have long believed that only after people learned to farm and live in settled communities did they have the time, organization and resources to construct temples and support complicated social structures. But Schmidt argues it was the other way around: the extensive, coordinated effort to build the monoliths literally laid the groundwork for the development of complex societies. The immensity of the undertaking at Gobekli Tepe reinforces that view. Schmidt says the monuments could not have been built by ragged bands of hunter-gatherers. To carve, erect and bury rings of seven-ton stone pillars would have required hundreds of workers, all needing to be fed and housed. Hence the eventual emergence of settled communities in the area around 10,000 years ago. "This shows sociocultural changes come first, agriculture comes later," says Stanford University archaeologist Ian Hodder, who excavated Catalhoyuk, a prehistoric settlement 300 miles from Gobekli Tepe. "You can make a good case this area is the real origin of complex Neolithic societies."


Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple? | History | Smithsonian Magazine

Based on this finding at Gobekli-Tepe it appears that the desire to build a temple is what caused the onset of the agricultural revolution as they needed to feed the workforce required to build this. There is a nice correlation with Genesis which says it was the temptation to be like God that caused them to eat of this tree.

 

[coffee4u]

But what I find even more interesting about the Adam and Eve story is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is really the tree of death. This is obviously figurative speech. Do you think this tree refers to the agricultural revolution? In that revolution we decide what plants are good and what are evil (weeds). Our solution is to kill any plants we think are evil and to propagate those plants we think are good.

I do not believe that to be a figure of speech at all but two literal trees.
The tree of life represented God and his Kingdom the other represented the way of Satan and the flesh.
The entire garden is also typology, a shadow of what was to come. The old testament frequently shows an event or a place as a shadow of something to come. In the OT you see it fail or be a poor imitation of the real event and then in the NT you see it perfected/come to pass/completed. So in the garden, they had both trees, because they faced a choice. God's way or the way of the flesh? They failed of course. Now if you turn all the way to Revelations (I think last chapter) you will see that picture completed because there are still two trees but both are now the tree of life.

Just because the garden is a shadow of the future New heavens and New World does not make it an allegory or a story. It is as real as the Passover meal that they ate in Egypt. That was a shadow of Jesus the Passover lamb who takes away the sins of the world. The lamb they ate and the blood on the door were as real as the trees in the garden.

 

[LoG]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - What translation are you using?

Show me the verse in the bible that specifically states God created the heavens and the Earth in 6 days.