Do you talk to your loved ones in Heaven?

[Presentist]

Since Christians on earth and those in Heaven are united, and since we talk to our loved ones on earth...

Do you talk to your loved ones in Heaven?

And if so, do they talk back to you?

I have heard different answers from Catholics on this and would like to know what each of you believe.

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[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, but am quite sure this is not an exclusive Catholic thing. Many people speak to loved ones that have gone on. The fact many do suggests to most that there must be something to them hearing us. Never mind that the Bible depicts them being aware.

No, mine have never talked back though I have known and heard people say thiers have so I do not rule it out.

 

[Presentist]

No, mine have never talked back though I have known and heard people say thiers have so I do not rule it out.

So are you saying that our loved ones can talk back to us (just that your own have not yet)?

What do the rest of you believe?

P.S. I thought you said the Saints do not speak back to us on the other thread.

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[DrBubbaLove]

So are you saying that our loved ones can talk back to us (just that your own have not yet)?

What do the rest of you believe?

P.S. I thought you said the Saints do not speak back to us on the other thread.

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No not me.

People speak to there departed loved ones all the time and it is not an exclusive Catholic thing. From small chidren to widows and widowers, there is nothing generally taken as odd in doing this and many do think they hear us. A few claim to have heard them speak back. Not been my experience but am not sure on what grounds I would rule it as impossible.
We know from scripture itself that several fof the Apostles heard Moses and Elijah speaking. We are told people saw and heard the dead walking after the Crucifiction. We have thousands of years of people attesting to hearing from someone who as gone before us.
Could some of those testimonies be faked? I suppose so, but I do not think it possible that all are faked. The majoriy of the appearances are to a single person but a good number occur to multiple people

 

[Presentist]

A few claim to have heard them speak back.

Do you believe their claims? Do you believe that our loved ones can talk to us?

(A simple yes or no will suffice.)

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[FMX]

I do and there are no words back, but like with God, silent communication. As if I know what they're thinking about me.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Do you believe their claims? Do you believe that our loved ones can talk to us?

(A simple yes or no will suffice.)

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What do you want me to say?

Mine have not. I do not think appearing or speaking with us is an "ability" they have but rather something God grants/gives them.

I do know people who had experiences I would call visions or apparitions. I believe them and that they had this experience. As the Bible clearly has Moses and Elijah talking among other living here after had long been gone, but no indication that all the dead can "do this" I would have to say it more likely something God allows rather than ability possessed by the individual appearing. And also I think demons can appear, possibly as people we know or knew.

 

[Presentist]

I do not think appearing or speaking with us is an "ability" they have but rather something God grants/gives them.

Why don't you think our loved ones in Heaven have the "ability" to talk to us?

I agree, but I would answer that the Bible does not have examples of this. Which is the same answer that I would give for why we should not pray to our loved ones in Heaven.

However you would say, regardless that the Bible does not show examples of it, since we ask living christians to pray for us we can ask christians in Heaven to pray for us.

So why don't you think our loved ones in Heaven have the "ability" to talk to us, our loved ones here on earth do?

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[DrBubbaLove]

Tomatoe - tomato - The Bible says the Church is One Body, a united Kingdom of God. The Bible says that Kingdom is in Heaven and was also started/establsihed here by what Jesus did. There is only one Kingdom and One Body.The Bible calls us, the Body to pray for one another. The Bible shows the dead aware. Being aware and a part of the Body, the Bible gives us no reason to have those who have gone on dismssed from the call to pray for one another, especially when part of the Body still struggles down here. St John shows in scripture beings in Heaven, both angels and men (IOW Saints) offering our prayers to God.
So to have all that in scripture and then conclude the Bible give us no direction in this regard because no one is depicted saying a Hail Mary is not just ridiculous (IMO) but also a standard one is unlikely to stick with universally. Which sort of turns it from a real standard to someone's opinion.
Not applying a standard universally, even if I claim it is on shaky ground at best, makes it a rather convenient standard for excluing this practice but troublesome for say having a Canon or a Trinity or a Baptismal formula...etc.

 

[Presentist]

St John shows in scripture beings in Heaven, both angels and men (IOW Saints) offering our prayers to God.

I assume you are talking about the following two passages. But, the saints are offering their own prayers. What makes you think they are passing along someone elses prayers?

In addition, Revelation says the "odours" (which represent the saints prayers) are contained in "vials" which are held by twenty four elders and four "beasts." How can that represent us asking a patron saint to pray to God for us?

Revelation 5:8 -- And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3-4 -- And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Lastly, when do you think Revelation takes place? I thought the Roman Catholic Church took a preterist viewpoint which would make those events in the past.

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[DrBubbaLove]

So in any alternate construct, where did these beings get these prayers?

 

[Presentist]

So in any alternate construct, where did these beings get these prayers?

It talks about "prayers of the saints", not "prayers that some saints are passing along from other saints."

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[DrBubbaLove]

so the elders are not human?

Ok, if you say so. Am not sure that works well with other usage of same word.

But even so, where did these beings get these prayers?

 

[Presentist]

so the elders are not human?

Revelation is a vision. It is not meant to be taken literal.

"Elders" would refer to humans, but the "beasts" would not. And the prayers of the saints are not literal "odours" contained in literal "vials." I assume you do not pray to the four "beasts" for intercession.

Revelation 5:8 -- the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

where did these beings get these prayers?

The "beasts" and the "elders" are holding "vials" which contain "odours" which represent the "prayers of the saints." The "saints" make the prayers, the "beasts" and "elders" are holding them.

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[Thekla]

Ah, "sight/vision, what is revealed by God, is indeed real in the deepest sense of the word.

 

[Presentist]

Ah, "sight/vision, what is revealed by God, is indeed real in the deepest sense of the word.

By "real" are you saying that there will be a literal beast with seven heads that will persecute the Christians?

Revelation 13:1 -- And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

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[DrBubbaLove]

The "beasts" and the "elders" are holding "vials" which contain "odours" which represent the "prayers of the saints." The "saints" make the prayers, the "beasts" and "elders" are holding them.

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And for me, many believers this vision represents intercessory prayer by beings in Heaven for members of the Body on earth.

Again, what would "holding" and "offering" represent to you?
They somehow intercepted prayers from us on earth directed to God so they could then offer them up to God?
God forgot or lost some prayers and these beings collected so they could bring these prayers to God's attention?

A vision represents something. So what does "holding" and "offering" our prayers to God represent to you?

 

[Presentist]

And for me, many believers this vision represents intercessory prayer by beings in Heaven for members of the Body on earth.

According to the Catholic view, what in the following verse refers to the "patron saints?" The "four beasts and four and twenty elders" or the "saints?"

Revelation 5:8 -- the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

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[DrBubbaLove]

According to the Catholic view, what in the following verse refers to the "patron saints?" The "four beasts and four and twenty elders" or the "saints?"

Revelation 5:8 -- the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

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Why?
Would it defeat our belief that this is an example of intercession by beings in Heaven if none are human?
On the other hand, if angels in Heaven are depicting offering our prayers to God, how does that promote the notion we should never ask them to pray for us?

While I have known people some would call beast it is not a common reference to humans. On the other hand elder is a common reference to a human. Elder is also a common reference to humans in the Bible.

 

[Presentist]

Why? Would it defeat our belief that this is an example of intercession by beings in Heaven if none are human?

I am not asking who in the verse if referring to "us." Since you believe that this verse shows us praying to patron saints who then pass the prayers along to God, who do you believe refers to the "patron saints" in this verse...

Revelation 5:8 -- the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

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