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Do you struggle with sin?

Robban

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Getting down to brass tacks, God wants/requires of us certain things to be done.It is not a religion, but simply what God wants us to do. If a king were to phone me or anyone, and say something like, " There,s something I would like you to do for me", "Me?"
"Are you sure you got the right number your Majesty" "Oh yes, quite sure"
"But what if I mess up?" "I will take the responsability". How much more so then if the King of Kings the master of the universe wants/wishes/requires that we help Him out, so to speak. Is it not be considered a great priviledge and honour.:) It,s simply about what God wants. Why?, because He knows best.
It is not true to say one loves God, yet hate their fellow. It is just not possible.
 
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b&wpac7

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Getting down to brass tacks, God wants/requires of us certain things to be done.It is not a religion, but simply what God wants us to do.

That's exactly how I feel. To coldly dismiss it as a "religion", but if God actually told us to do these things, wouldn't it be FAR worse to ignore them?
 
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Robban

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That's exactly how I feel. To coldly dismiss it as a "religion", but if God actually told us to do these things, wouldn't it be FAR worse to ignore them?
Reckon it,s not even to be considered. What brings joy, if not serving the Creator, even if the going gets tough.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I'm SO glad that I do not base my morality on the supposed pronouncements of some mythological super-authority, but strictly on... you know, actual ethical considerations?

(And before anyone balks at the term "mythological" - go look it up; it's not derogatory.)

Of course, we might argue that our evolved social behaviour is ultimately the result of some divine Masterplan, and that our reasoning faculties are likewise intended to make us figure such things out - but even then, it's not a question of authority, but of ethical considerations.
 
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hikersong

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So do I have a religion or a faith, in your opinion?

And there's the rub Ray. How far does a christian go in acknowledging the validity of another's belief in relation to their own. You can be sure that if you go too far that the Stinking Hounds of Christian Hell Damnation And Holiness who pop up around these parts will be damning your soul as well. Even if only in secret. They are on the prowl as we speak, and there lips would be drooling as they told you your fate. In love of course. :yum:

But I do appreciate that you are working hard at not damning us in our unbelief/wrong belief. It's a nice trait of yours. And I know how difficult it is because I've walked the same type rope myself, whether you believe it or not. ;)
 
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razeontherock

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I'm SO glad that I do not base my morality on the supposed pronouncements of some mythological super-authority, but strictly on... you know, actual ethical considerations?

(And before anyone balks at the term "mythological" - go look it up; it's not derogatory.)

Of course, we might argue that our evolved social behaviour is ultimately the result of some divine Masterplan, and that our reasoning faculties are likewise intended to make us figure such things out - but even then, it's not a question of authority, but of ethical considerations.

Allow me to again point out a false dichotomy: what is Love, if not THE highest ethical consideration?

From that perspective, the whole Bible can be seen as a cohesive unit.

With troubling parts ;)
 
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razeontherock

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And there's the rub Ray. How far does a christian go in acknowledging the validity of another's belief in relation to their own. You can be sure that if you go too far that the Stinking Hounds of Christian Hell Damnation And Holiness who pop up around these parts will be damning your soul as well. Even if only in secret. They are on the prowl as we speak, and there lips would be drooling as they told you your fate. In love of course. :yum:

But I do appreciate that you are working hard at not damning us in our unbelief/wrong belief. It's a nice trait of yours. And I know how difficult it is because I've walked the same type rope myself, whether you believe it or not. ;)

Oh, I very much DO believe that! And as for the friendly warning? If you can't tell already, I'm very much a 'd a m n the torpedoes' kind of guy ^_^

You could find no shortage of threads where the S.H.C.H.D.H. are damning my soul quite publicly. Ironically the current leader is someone by the name of "Dr Strange Love." ^_^ Strange love indeed ^_^

Yet my quite heretical idea of G-d actually Loving people regardless, is quite well founded in the Bible. :cool: Truly an amazing thing, a wot?
 
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razeontherock

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Getting down to brass tacks, God wants/requires of us certain things to be done.It is not a religion, but simply what God wants us to do. If a king were to phone me or anyone, and say something like, " There,s something I would like you to do for me", "Me?"
"Are you sure you got the right number your Majesty" "Oh yes, quite sure"
"But what if I mess up?" "I will take the responsability". How much more so then if the King of Kings the master of the universe wants/wishes/requires that we help Him out, so to speak. Is it not be considered a great priviledge and honour.:) It,s simply about what God wants. Why?, because He knows best.
It is not true to say one loves God, yet hate their fellow. It is just not possible.

True, this is.

Liking this, we are.

[/Yoda Ray - a name i have often been dubbed]
 
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razeontherock

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So do I have a religion or a faith, in your opinion?

Before I would ever say a person "has no Faith," I would have to be really really shown that, explicitly. I think you've actually shown quite a bit that can only be attributed to Faith. I also think that w/o the Temple rituals much of the "religiosoty" of Judaism may well be ... gone - poof.

Rituals, Liturgy, prayers by rote or recitation - all of these things can be a very strong touch point that strengthens Faith. Generally that has not been my experience, but that's just me.

So I officially render "no opinion" on the religion spectrum in your case. :cool: Although religion in no way precludes Faith; they can co-exist.
 
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b&wpac7

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Before I would ever say a person "has no Faith," I would have to be really really shown that, explicitly. I think you've actually shown quite a bit that can only be attributed to Faith. I also think that w/o the Temple rituals much of the "religiosoty" of Judaism may well be ... gone - poof.

You forget how many things are commanded to be done at home, no Temple required. Passover, for example, had plenty of elements having nothing to do with the Temple.
 
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Robban

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It,s all about connecting with God. One can have a weak connection, but the possibilities of strengening the connection are there. A ship come in to a harbour and is about to lay along side a quay or jetty, there is not much chance of throwing a mooring rope ashore, but by throwing a heaving line first and then attaching it to the mooring line you get it ashore. But in the case of connecting with God, He throws the heaving line first. It has always been so, He makes the first move.
Something like the story about the elderly lady who had a little romance going (so to speak) with a nobleman, one evening after getting all dressed up and ready to go, her son said to her, Oh come on, what chance do think you have?" The elderly lady smiled and said, "Well He started it". :)
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Allow me to again point out a false dichotomy: what is Love, if not THE highest ethical consideration?
In that regard, we are hardly in disagreement.

In fact, to break with the stereotype of the contrary pantheist-nay-sayer, I've always been infused with a sense of trust or piece of mind that people might call "Faith", based on my experience that Love (capital L) is a concept that refers to more than just our mating-and-bonding-emotions. I could never be a cynic, even if I tried to.
 
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From what I gathered so far in this thread (and others), many flavours of Christianity seem to rely on a kind of psychological self-mutilation - something that goes WAY beyond simply acknowledging that every one of us has some faults and doesn't always live up to his or her own moral precepts.

I find that oddly disturbing, like witnessing a disturbed [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] tear into his own flesh and enjoying both the pain and the degradation.
If you think that anything stated in this thread is an instance of severe, it's a good thing you weren't around at the dawn of Christianity or during the Middle Ages. What would you have thought about Saint Francis of Assisi ordering one his brothers to stand on his back while he lay down in the mud as punishment for thinking sinful thoughts?

For me and many others the concept that "my sin is always before me" [Psalm 51:3] is one of the most joyous and uplifting Christian doctrines. Original sin is the recognition that the person which each one of us is differs from the person that we are meant to be. Without it, we'd be stuck with whatever personality, attitude, and predisposition we currently have. But if we are sinners in a significant way, then there's a chance that we can overcome sin and improve.
 
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hikersong

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Original sin is the recognition that the person which each one of us is differs from the person that we are meant to be.

If you changed the "meant to be" for a "could be" I would like your description. But that is not the doctrine of original sin you are describing. It is simply the natural human condition, often surpressed in children, of desiring to change and become more than we are at present, and to grow up into the world we live in.

Original Sin has far more odious connotations which are used by the unscrupulous to pour guilt upon the innocent. The idea that a child is "born in sin" for instance is ridiculous, unobservable, and corrupting. It is a self fulfilling prophecy foisted upon the most vulnerable ultimately as a way of trying to turn them into the sad creatures we have often turned into through the same method. And it is a doctrine that has infiltrated so deeply into our western societies that even atheists can grow up believing that children are "naturally naughty" and need to be "disciplined" into goodness. Augustine is the anti-christ in my opinion.
 
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razeontherock

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Wow, who would've thunkit that starting this thread would result in Hiker saying Augustine (who's ideas have been deemed heretical) is the anti-Christ, and Jane saying this?

In fact, to break with the stereotype of the contrary pantheist-nay-sayer

I'm not sure how to score this, but does it count as 1 for each side? ^_^
 
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AlexBP

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If you changed the "meant to be" for a "could be" I would like your description. But that is not the doctrine of original sin you are describing. It is simply the natural human condition, often surpressed in children, of desiring to change and become more than we are at present, and to grow up into the world we live in.
Nothing that I've ever seen would lead me to believe that the natural human condition involves much desire for self improvement. I would agree that most teenagers have a rebellious streak, a desire to break the rules for the sake of breaking the rules, and wish to say "In yer face man!" to authority figures. Whether this comes naturally or arises from the way our current society raises teenagers, I'm not sure, though I lean towards the later.

But was is sure is that human beings have natural desires towards overeating and overdrinking, promiscuous sex, drugs, anger, violence, pride, self-righteousness, jealousy, and other bad things. Not every individual experiences all these desires, but every individual experiences some. Moreover, many in our society have been lead to believe that these things are inevitable. They're in our genes, or hard-wired into our brains, our they occur because someone else oppressed us, or we had a bad childhood, or some product of our circumstances is at fault. Small wonder that we've seen soaring rates of depression in modernized societies. Small wonder that many people's lives are destroyed by these things.

The doctrine of original sin, on the other hand, tells us that these things do not come from our genes, our upbringing, or anything else. Instead, it says that we inherited sinfulness as a result of being born into the human race, but our creator did not intend for us to be sinful. Rather, our creator wants us to triumph over sin. Hence the doctrine of original sin is a trumpet blast calling us into battle against our sinful natures.

Original Sin has far more odious connotations which are used by the unscrupulous to pour guilt upon the innocent. The idea that a child is "born in sin" for instance is ridiculous, unobservable, and corrupting. It is a self fulfilling prophecy foisted upon the most vulnerable ultimately as a way of trying to turn them into the sad creatures we have often turned into through the same method. And it is a doctrine that has infiltrated so deeply into our western societies that even atheists can grow up believing that children are "naturally naughty" and need to be "disciplined" into goodness. Augustine is the anti-christ in my opinion.
Well, if you know anybody who became a good person without ever being disciplined, I'd like to meet them. Personally I see our society's problems as being exactly the opposite. We have a self-esteem movement which teaches us to heap praise on children and adults regardless of what they do. We have a school system that celebrates children who deliver the worst academic performance in the industrialized world. We have advertising which tells us that we deserve to have everything, even if we can't pay for it. We have politicians who constantly give us favors and send the bill to future generations. Everywhere we look, we have problems resulting from the fact that wer'e not willing to criticize ourselves.

Every study that I've ever seen on the topic has concluded that high self-esteem correlates with poor academics, violence, crime, bullying, and long-term unhappiness. By contrast, St. Francis and the great number who lived and thought like him surely believed in original sin, yet they were happy people.
 
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