Do you really believe that faith produces works?

[Dan Perez]

Dan, the demons believe--that is to say, they know who is God and they know his power--but they do not have Faith.

Many people think the two (Faith and belief) are identical, but saving Faith is a complete acceptance of and trust in the Lord as one's Savior. That is quite obviously not what the demons do.

Hi and James 2:19 says the demons BELIEVE/PSITEUO which means to trust , believe , to be persuaded !!

In verse the demons BELIEVE / PISTEUO same Greek Greek word !!

So how do you handle James 2:17 and 18 ?

Did Abel faith PRODUCE WORKS in Heb 11:4 ?

So how was Abel saved ?

dan p

 

[Albion]

Hi and James 2:19 says the demons BELIEVE/PSITEUO which means to trust , believe , to be persuaded !!

Theologians do not agree with you on this.

And, beyond that, the verse makes perfect sense if understood the way the explain it while, as we all know, it makes no sense if we think that "believe" = saving "Faith."

 

[Dan Perez]

Theologians do not agree with you on this.

And, beyond that, the verse makes perfect sense if understood the way the explain it while, as we all know, it makes no sense if we think that "believe" = saving "Faith."

Theologians do not agree with you on this.

And, beyond that, the verse makes perfect sense if understood the way the explain it while, as we all know, it makes no sense if we think that "believe" = saving "Faith."

Hi and how do you say that Adam was saved , ?

Saved by FAITH ??
Or saved by WORKS ?

dan p

 

[Albion]

Hi and how do you say that Adam was saved , ?

Saved by FAITH ??
Or saved by WORKS ?

dan p

If it had been by works, he couldn't have been saved. At least not as the Bible gives the account in Genesis of his doings. As it is, Adam was in the same category as Moses and the other heroes of the Old Testament.

 

[Dan Perez]

If it had been by works, he couldn't have been saved. At least not as the Bible gives the account in Genesis of his doings. As it is, Adam was in the same category as Moses and the other heroes of the Old Testament.

Hi Albion this is how I believe Adam was saved !!

#1 Most will say that Adam did not have FAITH !!

#2 I say Adam did have FAITH , and Gen 3:21 says Adam did have FAITH and and will read Gen 3:21 , FAITH is there !!

#3 , Adam walked by SIGHT in the garden with CHRIST , Gen 3:8-13 !!

#4 So we see that Adan walked by SIGHT !!

#5 So in Gen 3:21 Christ killed made coats to cover their sins 11

#6 This is the FIRST TIME , ATONEMENT was instituted by God himself !!

#7 Also notice that Adam and Eve used FIG LEAFS to cover up theirs sin is what the worlds TRY'S to always do !!

By the way the 2 words in Gen 3:21 are in the HEB , IMPERFECT TENSE which means that atonement began with Adam and then STOPPED !!

dan p

 

[Albion]

I'm not quite sure what point you are illustrating there, Dan. I did say that it was by Faith, I believe, and what you have shown seems to verify that. But what are those references to "Christ" about?

 

[Dan Perez]

I'm not quite sure what point you are illustrating there, Dan. I did say that it was by Faith, I believe, and what you have shown seems to verify that. But what are those references to "Christ" about?

Hi and it is plain to me that Adam had FAITH or Christ who made ALL and is Israel's ATONEMENT , would never killed coats to cover them !

CHRIST is their ATONEMENT and all those sins that were covered had to be PAID for and Heb 9:15 says SO !!

And what I am saying is that Adam had FAITH or other wise . Christ or if you want to say God , killed and covered them with the COATS and those animals blood was spilled for them !!

To me ATONEMENT by Israel is WORKS !!

dan p

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's very clear that you are very spiritually immature and are completely lacking in discernment. I'm done wasting my time with this.

You say we can't discern if someone's faith is genuine or not such as in the case of Simon the sorcerer. Jesus Himself said that we can.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Simon's fruits revealed who he really was, which was someone who was only looking out for himself and how he could make more money and get more fame.

Neither Phillip nor Peter had any idea that Simon didn’t have faith until he tried to buy the ability to bestow the Holy Spirit on others. The scriptures say that Simon was a believer. The word believer is translated from the word pisteuo which is an adjective of the word pistis meaning faith. To say that Simon was a believer is to say that he was a person of faith. Simon just didn’t remain faithful.


“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12-24‬ ‭NASB

 

[Dan Perez]

The people who believe that genuine faith automatically produces works and changes your lifestyle are usually the same people who criticize the teaching of easy-believism. By 'easy-believism' I mean the teaching which says that you could just live however you want and still go to heaven if you just have faith in Jesus. Usually those people have a problem with that and think that people would just use it as a licence to sin.

But if genuine faith actually produces works, then you should have no problem with easy-believism. All that easy-believism teaches is having faith in Jesus.

Imagine that you tell an atheist that they can live a sinful life and still go to heaven if they just have faith in Jesus. Then that person says, "OK, great! I'll just have faith in Jesus then!" If you are one of those people who believe that faith produces works, you should have no problem with this at all. If faith always produces works, then according to you, that person's faith will produce works.

Hi and if you says that Abel had FAITH !!

Did Abel live by FAITH ?

Or did ABEL LIVE BY works ?

Or did Abel live BY FAITH and WORKS ?

You better examine Heb 11:4 FIRST , RIGHT ??

dan p

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Neither Phillip nor Peter had any idea that Simon didn’t have faith until he tried to buy the ability to bestow the Holy Spirit on others. The scriptures say that Simon was a believer. The word believer is translated from the word pisteuo which is an adjective of the word pistis meaning faith. To say that Simon was a believer is to say that he was a person of faith. Simon just didn’t remain faithful.


“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity." But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12-24‬ ‭NASB

I stand by everything I already said about this. There is no indication that Simon received the Holy Spirit like the others. If he didn't receive the Holy Spirit then what does that tell you about the kind of faith he had? The ones who had saving faith received the Holy Spirit, but Simon did not. That tells me that he did not have saving faith.

I see no evidence to indicate that he ever had genuine faith in Jesus Christ Himself as His Lord and Savior. The miracles he saw appealed to him because he was a magician. He wanted to be able to do miracles as well and make money off of it. I see no evidence to indicate that Simon had the kind of faith that saves at any point and nothing you said here changes my mind about that. If you could show that he ever received the Holy Spirit then I would change my mind, but there is no evidence for that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I stand by everything I already said about this. There is no indication that Simon received the Holy Spirit like the others. If he didn't receive the Holy Spirit then what does that tell you about the kind of faith he had? The ones who had saving faith received the Holy Spirit, but Simon did not. That tells me that he did not have saving faith.

I see no evidence to indicate that he ever had genuine faith in Jesus Christ Himself as His Lord and Savior. The miracles he saw appealed to him because he was a magician. He wanted to be able to do miracles as well and make money off of it. I see no evidence to indicate that Simon had the kind of faith that saves at any point and nothing you said here changes my mind about that. If you could show that he ever received the Holy Spirit then I would change my mind, but there is no evidence for that.

I simply quoted the scriptures. They specifically say that Simon believed. The Greek word for believe is pisteuo. The Greek word for faith is pistis. Pisteuo isn’t simply the verb form of pistis which is a noun. They’re the same word just one is the verb version and one is the noun version. So if Simon believed then he had faith. It’s the same thing. James gives 3 examples that faith doesn’t always produce works in James 2. Verse 14 he says faith without works is not a saving faith. Verse 17 he says faith without works is dead. Verse 20 he says faith without works is useless. Evidently faith doesn’t always produce works. John 15:2 Jesus says that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. No one can be in Christ unless they have faith.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I simply quoted the scriptures. They specifically say that Simon believed. The Greek word for believe is pisteuo. The Greek word for faith is pistis. Pisteuo isn’t simply the verb form of pistis which is a noun. They’re the same word just one is the verb version and one is the noun version. So if Simon believed then he had faith. It’s the same thing. James gives 3 examples that faith doesn’t always produce works in James 2. Verse 14 he says faith without works is not a saving faith. Verse 17 he says faith without works is dead. Verse 20 he says faith without works is useless. Evidently faith doesn’t always produce works. John 15:2 Jesus says that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. No one can be in Christ unless they have faith.

And I'm saying that Simon never had that kind of faith at any point. But, we can agree to disagree. I'm sure we agree that he didn't have saving faith at the time when he tried to pay to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[5thKingdom]

The people who believe that genuine faith automatically produces works and changes your lifestyle are usually the same people who criticize the teaching of easy-believism.

That is a strawman argument because:

(1) Most reformed/orthodox believers understand that real faith
(which is the result of regeneration) automatically produces works,
but they do NOT teach that we neglect to "keep His commandments"

(2) The first person to TEACH that real faith produces works was
JESUS CHRIST when He taught regeneration produces "fruit" in
each believer - some thirty-fold, others sixty-fold and some
one hundred-fold.

We can hardly claim JESUS CHRIST taught "easy-believism"...
can we?

Jim

 

[Butterball1]

The people who believe that genuine faith automatically produces works and changes your lifestyle are usually the same people who criticize the teaching of easy-believism. By 'easy-believism' I mean the teaching which says that you could just live however you want and still go to heaven if you just have faith in Jesus. Usually those people have a problem with that and think that people would just use it as a licence to sin.

But if genuine faith actually produces works, then you should have no problem with easy-believism. All that easy-believism teaches is having faith in Jesus.

Imagine that you tell an atheist that they can live a sinful life and still go to heaven if they just have faith in Jesus. Then that person says, "OK, great! I'll just have faith in Jesus then!" If you are one of those people who believe that faith produces works, you should have no problem with this at all. If faith always produces works, then according to you, that person's faith will produce works.

I know the Bible is not a book full of confusion and contradictions but that ALL verses are part of God's truth therefore all verses must be in agreement.

So when one verse tells me that faith justifies (Romans 5:1) and another verse tells me obedient works justify (James 2:24) and there is just way to be saved/justified then that MUST mean that faith itself is a form of an obedient work.

And since various verses also tell me that repentance saves, confession saves and baptism saves (Acts 2:38; Romans 10:9-10, 1 Peter 3:21) and, again, there is just one way to be saved, then that MUST mean a NT faith that saves includes obedience in repenting confessing and being baptized. So a faith void of obedient works of repentance, confession and baptism is a dead faith and cannot save. All the belief only in the world can never save a person who will not repent of his sins or confess Christ or be baptized for remission of sins.

 

[5thKingdom]

So when one verse tells me that faith justifies (Romans 5:1) and another verse tells me obedient works justify (James 2:24) and there is just way to be saved/justified then that MUST mean that faith itself is a form of an obedient work.

You have it exactly backwards.
Faith and belief and good works ("fruit") and so much more
are the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE. Otherwise
we would have a "works gospel" or a "boaster's gospel" instead
of salvation by the Sovereign Grace of God "choosing" or "electing"
who He will have mercy on, before the foundation of the world,
based ONLY on His Good Pleasure and NOT on anything that
person would do during their lifetime.

Jim

 

[Butterball1]

You have it exactly backwards.
Faith and belief and good works ("fruit") and so much more
are the RESULT of regeneration and not the CAUSE. Otherwise
we would have a "works gospel" or a "boaster's gospel" instead
of salvation by the Sovereign Grace of God "choosing" or "electing"
who He will have mercy on, before the foundation of the world,
based ONLY on His Good Pleasure and NOT on anything that
person would do during their lifetime.

Jim

There is no salvation without the obedience to God. Such is why faith/belief itself is obedience.

Jn 3:36 ASV "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"Believeth" contrasted to "obeyeth not" sows belief is obedience, a word of action in how one lives his life in obedience to God's word. So those that God chooses are those that obey Him. Again, since both faith and obedient works justify, and there is but one way to be saved, then faith MUST be an obedient work.

Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." This verse does not give the basis as to why God has mercy upon one but not another...but that does not mean there is no basis for God does not choose capriciously. From other verses we know that basis is obedience:
Jeremiah 18:8,10 "if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them......if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."
Now we can see why God had no mercy upon one King (Pharaoh) because he disobeyed but God did have mercy upon another King (Nineveh) because he obeyed.


Rom 9:11 "for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,"

Jacob nor Esau were alike in that neither, before they were born, had done any good or evil. Hence God's choice of Jacob over Esau was totally a sovereign choice not based upon what either twin had done. Was God's choice baselss and random? No. God's choice was not based upon works sense neither had done any works good or evil but God's choice was based upon His foreknowledge of the twins.

God's choice of Abraham was based upon foreknowledge of what God saw in Abraham "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." God saw something in Abraham, God foreknew Abraham would obey Him therefore God could "bring upon Abraham that which He spoken of him". This statement implies that if Abraham did not have that obedient quality that God saw in him then it would not have been possible to bring about those promises.

Likewise what God foresaw in Abrahan He saw that same thing in Jacob nut did not see it in Esau..."And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Gen 25:23. God foresaw a 'manner' of people within Jacob but not Esau making the promise through Jacob possible but impossible for Esau, hence Esau was rejected.

In election, there must be a difference in men for God does not choose randomly. Furthermore God's wlwction of Abraham and Jacob was not about salvation. God's election of Abraham over others as Melchizedek did not mean Melchizedek was destined to be lost eternally since he was not of the promised blood line (he found favor with God). Nor was God's choice of Jacob mean Esau was destined to be lost eternally either. Paul's point in Romans 9 was to prove to those Jews that God's promises are not solely based upon physical desent. Esau was as much a true desendant of Abraham as Jacob but even though Esau was not chosen did not mean Esau could not please God and be saved. Again, Melchizedek was not chosen but still found favor with God.

 

[5thKingdom]

There is no salvation without the obedience to God. Such is why faith/belief itself is obedience.

Look, the Bible is very clear on this matter.
The ONLY people who will "believe" or "obey" are those
who God has regenerated... based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything they would do... Otherwise NO MAN
(no, not even one) will ever "seek God"
or do anything "good" (like believe or obey).


Repentance (obedience) is always the RESULT of regeneration
and never the CAUSE... otherwise you preach a "works gospel"
or a "boaster's gospel" where MEN save themselves.


Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.


The Bible declares (in both the OT and NT) that un-regenerated
men will NEVER "seek God" and NEVER "doeth good"..
(believe or obey) No, not even one of them.


(1) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Moreover, JESUS explained that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draw them" [John 6:44] and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him [John 6:37] and He will
lose NONE of them.


You pretend that SOME MEN can come,
when JESUS says that NO MAN can come.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.


(2) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You pretend that SOME MEN who are given will NOT COME...
when JESUS says ALL MEN given to Him SHALL COME.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus was just a LIAR.


(3) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You pretend SOME MEN God "draws" can be LOST...
when JESUS says NONE of them can ever be LOST
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.


(4) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

Now we can see why God had no mercy upon one King (Pharaoh) because he disobeyed but God did have mercy upon another King (Nineveh) because he obeyed.

No, we do not see that at all... you ADDED your "interpretation"
to the Text. The Text is clear when it reveals that God had no mercy
upon Pharaoh because he was CREATED to be hardened and
NOT OBEY in order to show the power of God.


Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


You say God did not have mercy on Pharaoh because he chose
to not obey... when GOD SAYS he CREATED Pharaoh to be
HARDENED, to show His Great Power and to demonstrate
that He shows MERCY on who HE CHOOSES and
He HARDENS whom He decides to HARDEN.


(5) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You teach it is MAN that decides to OBEY God but God insists
that HE is the one who "chooses" or "elects" WHO will receive
His mercy... so that they CAN believe and obey. And whoever
He does NOT "elect" can NEVER believe or obey.


Again, the Bible teaches that (real) repentance is the RESULT
of regeneration... and never the CAUSE.


Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(6) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

God's choice was not based upon works sense neither had done any works good or evil but God's choice was based upon His foreknowledge of the twins.

You teach that God chose Jacob and not Esau based on KNOWING
what (good works) they would do. However GOD SAYS that the
"election" of Jacob and not Esau was NOT BASED ON ANY WORK
they would do... but only on God's own good pleasure.


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


(7) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.

This statement implies that if Abraham did not have that obedient quality that God saw in him then it would not have been possible to bring about those promises.

You preach the COMMON heresy of synergism, where MAN does
some "good work" and God SEES (or Foreknows) that good work
and BECAUSE of that work of man... God "elects" to save him.


However, that is the exact OPPOSITE of what the Scripture says,
that God "elects" people based ONLY on His Good Pleasure and
NOT because of anything they would do during their lifetime.



Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.


Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


(8) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Your false "gospel" of synergism is EASILY refuted, not only by
the verses above (which contradict your theory), but by MANY
other passages. I will only focus on two (2) of them.


(a) Jesus clearly taught that some men (the elect) are GIVEN
the understanding of the Gospel [Mark 4:11] while other men
were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel,
or "be forgiven" or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]


Since JESUS declares some men were NEVER MEANT to ever
"be converted" or "have their sins forgiven" that shows your
theory that salvation is due to some good work that men decide
to do... is just "another gospel" or pure heresy... and the Bible
PROMISES those preaching "another Gospel" and/or those
preaching HERESY "shall not enter the Kingdom of God"
[Gal 1:8-9 and 5:20]


(9) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


(b) The Bible clearly teaches that God CREATES some men to be
"vessels of mercy" [saved] while He CREATES other men to be
"vessels of wrath" [unsaved] See Romans 9:19-23


Therefore, not only does this Truth destroy your "theory" it PROVES
that SOME men are CREATED to be "chosen" or "elect", while
others are CREATED to remain spiritually DEAD, and slaves in
Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon"... where they are forever lost.
Again we see salvation by "election" has NOTHING to do
with any "good work" that man would do in his lifetime.


(10) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Now, I understand the argument you have made... that men are
"elected" or "chosen" based on God "foreknowing" they would
do some "good work" (believe or obey, etc) however, these
VERSES above all CONTRADICT your theory.


Since we know absolutely that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS
in the Word of God.... in order to pretend your theories are correct
you will FIRST NEED to harmonize all the information above into
those theories.


But, of course, you cannot do that because the verses above
directly CONTRADICT your theories. Therefore, in order for you
to continue to believe/preach your theories (and for anyone else
to ever believe your theories) ALL THE VERSES ABOVE must be
rejected or intentionally ignored.


So... you have a choice. Either amend your theories until they
harmonize with all the passages above - including those teaching
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... and God CREATED
some men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved) and other men
to be "vessels of mercy" (saved). Or preach false doctrines
(heresies) KNOWING they contradict MANY other passages.


If you CANNOT or WILL NOT harmonize all the Scriptures above
then you demonstrate that your theories are NOT BIBLICAL and
you are well aware they are heresy (contradicting many verses)...
but you would rather preach heresy than change your errors. to
harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURES. It really is as simple as that.


Jim

 

[Butterball1]

Look, the Bible is very clear on this matter.
The ONLY people who will "believe" or "obey" are those
who God has regenerated... based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything they would do... Otherwise NO MAN
(no, not even one) will ever "seek God"
or do anything "good" (like believe or obey).


Repentance (obedience) is always the RESULT of regeneration
and never the CAUSE... otherwise you preach a "works gospel"
or a "boaster's gospel" where MEN save themselves.


Rom 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that
seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way,
they are together become unprofitable; there is none
that doeth good, no, not one.


The Bible declares (in both the OT and NT) that un-regenerated
men will NEVER "seek God" and NEVER "doeth good"..
(believe or obey) No, not even one of them.


(1) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Moreover, JESUS explained that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draw them" [John 6:44] and ALL MEN
the Father draws "shall come" to Him [John 6:37] and He will
lose NONE of them.


You pretend that SOME MEN can come,
when JESUS says that NO MAN can come.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.


(2) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You pretend that SOME MEN who are given will NOT COME...
when JESUS says ALL MEN given to Him SHALL COME.
Either you are wrong... or Jesus was just a LIAR.


(3) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You pretend SOME MEN God "draws" can be LOST...
when JESUS says NONE of them can ever be LOST
Either you are wrong... or Jesus is a LIAR.


(4) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.





No, we do not see that at all... you ADDED your "interpretation"
to the Text. The Text is clear when it reveals that God had no mercy
upon Pharaoh because he was CREATED to be hardened and
NOT OBEY in order to show the power of God.


Rom 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose
have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


You say God did not have mercy on Pharaoh because he chose
to not obey... when GOD SAYS he CREATED Pharaoh to be
HARDENED, to show His Great Power and to demonstrate
that He shows MERCY on who HE CHOOSES and
He HARDENS whom He decides to HARDEN.


(5) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


You teach it is MAN that decides to OBEY God but God insists
that HE is the one who "chooses" or "elects" WHO will receive
His mercy... so that they CAN believe and obey. And whoever
He does NOT "elect" can NEVER believe or obey.


Again, the Bible teaches that (real) repentance is the RESULT
of regeneration... and never the CAUSE.


Rom 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


(6) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.





You teach that God chose Jacob and not Esau based on KNOWING
what (good works) they would do. However GOD SAYS that the
"election" of Jacob and not Esau was NOT BASED ON ANY WORK
they would do... but only on God's own good pleasure.


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


(7) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.





You preach the COMMON heresy of synergism, where MAN does
some "good work" and God SEES (or Foreknows) that good work
and BECAUSE of that work of man... God "elects" to save him.


However, that is the exact OPPOSITE of what the Scripture says,
that God "elects" people based ONLY on His Good Pleasure and
NOT because of anything they would do during their lifetime.



Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation
of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him
in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.


Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy


Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any
good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election
might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


(8) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Your false "gospel" of synergism is EASILY refuted, not only by
the verses above (which contradict your theory), but by MANY
other passages. I will only focus on two (2) of them.


(a) Jesus clearly taught that some men (the elect) are GIVEN
the understanding of the Gospel [Mark 4:11] while other men
were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand" the Gospel,
or "be forgiven" or "have their sins forgiven" [Mark 4:12]


Since JESUS declares some men were NEVER MEANT to ever
"be converted" or "have their sins forgiven" that shows your
theory that salvation is due to some good work that men decide
to do... is just "another gospel" or pure heresy... and the Bible
PROMISES those preaching "another Gospel" and/or those
preaching HERESY "shall not enter the Kingdom of God"
[Gal 1:8-9 and 5:20]


(9) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


(b) The Bible clearly teaches that God CREATES some men to be
"vessels of mercy" [saved] while He CREATES other men to be
"vessels of wrath" [unsaved] See Romans 9:19-23


Therefore, not only does this Truth destroy your "theory" it PROVES
that SOME men are CREATED to be "chosen" or "elect", while
others are CREATED to remain spiritually DEAD, and slaves in
Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon"... where they are forever lost.
Again we see salvation by "election" has NOTHING to do
with any "good work" that man would do in his lifetime.


(10) That means you have to HARMONIZE your "theory"
to not contradict this Bible Truth before you can even pretend
to understand the Gospel of the Bible.


Now, I understand the argument you have made... that men are
"elected" or "chosen" based on God "foreknowing" they would
do some "good work" (believe or obey, etc) however, these
VERSES above all CONTRADICT your theory.


Since we know absolutely that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS
in the Word of God.... in order to pretend your theories are correct
you will FIRST NEED to harmonize all the information above into
those theories.


But, of course, you cannot do that because the verses above
directly CONTRADICT your theories. Therefore, in order for you
to continue to believe/preach your theories (and for anyone else
to ever believe your theories) ALL THE VERSES ABOVE must be
rejected or intentionally ignored.


So... you have a choice. Either amend your theories until they
harmonize with all the passages above - including those teaching
some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... and God CREATED
some men to be "vessels of wrath" (unsaved) and other men
to be "vessels of mercy" (saved). Or preach false doctrines
(heresies) KNOWING they contradict MANY other passages.


If you CANNOT or WILL NOT harmonize all the Scriptures above
then you demonstrate that your theories are NOT BIBLICAL and
you are well aware they are heresy (contradicting many verses)...
but you would rather preach heresy than change your errors. to
harmonize with ALL SCRIPTURES. It really is as simple as that.


Jim

1) there is not a single example in the NT of God saving a person who rebelled against God and would not obey. Those that were saved werethose who first obeyed God in doing God's righteous commands. Paul spoke of "obedience UNTO righteousness" Rom 6:16, he put "obeying from the heart" BEFORE one is freed from sin, Romans 6:17-18. One repents and is baptized BEFORE sins are remitted (Acts 2:38) one beleives and is baptized BEFORE saved Mark 16:16. Still don't beleive this? Then show me where God saved one while one continued in rebellion and disobedience to God's will.

2)
Rom 5:1-----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justify

Calvinsts cannot get around this simple fact. The Bible ties faith to obedient works so closely that faith itself is an obedient work. No one was saved by faith alone that is saved by faith apart from obeying God. Again show me an example of God saving those who rebelled against Him and would not obey but God saved them anyway in their disobedience.

3)
regeneration, the new birth, occurs when one is water baptized (born of water John 3:5). One is first baptized THEN one walks in newness of life Romans 6:3-6. And in Mark 16:16 Jesus puts believing before water baptism. The unbelieving cannot be water baptized/regenerated.

3)
you misunderstand Paul in Rom 3 when Paul said none do good, none seek God. How do you reconcile none seek God when there were those who sought after God (2 Chronicles 14:5; 15:4; 15:15) are just a very few veres of those who sought the Lord. Men have been commanded to seek the Lord (Isaiah 55:6). Nonsense to command men to seek the Lord if such were impossible. There were also men in the Bible who did good things as Cornelius (Acts 10:2) who believed in God all while he was still lost (unregenerated)!!!!

4)
I do not see where you proved me wrong when I said God foresaw something in Jacob that He did not in Esau, that being, Jacob (Israel) being a different manner of people (Genesis 25:23) making them the better choice. God foreknew that Abraham (Genesis 18:19), Jacob and Israel would obey Him (not perfectly) but enough as to where God would be able to bring about His promises. Just because Calvinism is blind to the fact that obedience is the basis as to whom God has mercy does not mean the rest of us have to be blind to that fact.

5)
John 3:18 Jesus said those who will not obey by believing will not be saved. Not beleiving is a choice man makes for himself not a choice God makes for men. Those lost are lost due to their own choices not capricious choice God made for tehm against their will.

6)
the Bible does teach "synergism" for it clearly shows man has a role in his own salvation:
-save yourselves Acts 2:40
-save thyself 1 Timothy 4:16
-cleanse ourselves 2 Corinthians 7:1
-keep yourselves in the love of God Jude 1:21
-you purified your soul 1 Peter 1:22

These are just some examples of man "saving himself" thereby having a role in his own salvation. These verses do NOT mean man can save himself all by himself apart from God and His word. God's word has told men to believe, repent confess and be baptized to be saved, therefore those men who choose to obey God and do these things are in that sense "saving themselves".

 

[Butterball1]

7)
Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

This verse says NOTHING AT ALL about God raising Pharaoh up to make Pharaoh disobey God against his will. Calvinists read that idea into the verse. It says God raised Pharaoh up to:
1) shew My power in thee
and
2) My name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God would accomplish these two things no matter if Pharoah, of his own free, will chose to obey or disobey.

--Had he chose to obey God and let the people go God then would have shown his power over this great King and God's name magnified.

--But Pharoah chose to disobey and we know from Exodus how God allowed Phaoraoh to disobey and God used that disobedience to show His power over Phraoah and magnify God's name.

So it always remained within Pharaoh's free will as to how God would accomplish these two things.

Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

Paul and Peter say the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, 2 Peter 3:15. Why would God be longsuffering that these vessels of wrath be saved if God is causing them to be lost? Makes no sense.
As one commentarian aptly puts it "What a disgusting thing it would be to say: "Isn"t God wonderful for enduring those he eternally predestined to damnation (i.e. vessels of wrath fitted for destruction?!)" Dunagan.

Greek scholars have shown the verb "fitted" can be passive or middle voice. The middle shows those Jews fitted themselves for destruction as 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 bringing God's wrath upon themselves. Jeremiah 18:4 the potter did not mar the clay, the clay marred itself. How God "fashions" a nation depends on whether it obeys God or not Jeremiah 18:8-10 not due to some unknown or capricious reason.

Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinism. God has cast off the Jews from being His elect (Romans 11) and the Jews would accuse God of being unrighteous towards them for casting off. But in Romans 9 Paul proves God was righteous in casting off the Jews. Paul used OT examples to make his points: Jacob and Esau was Paul's proof God does not have to solely base His choices/promises on physical descent. Paul used Pharaoh to show God can have mercy upon whoever he desires eluding to the fact that God can save the Gentiles if He wants and not just save Jews. The potter and clay shows God can fashion men depending on how men behave in His hands. From Jeremiah 18:8-10 those that obey = vessels of mercy, those that disobey = vessels of wrath....2 Timothy 2:20-21 "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

 

[HIM]

Dead faith does not produce works. Living faith, the saving faith, does. You can say a lot, and an atheist saying "I believe in God" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in itself. Saying something doesn't make it true, and faith is more than "thinking of something to be true". To have faith in Jesus Christ means to put all your trust in him. Yes, that will have visible consequences in your life.
Someone who says "I believe" and lives as if Jesus never existed surely does not really believe.

Rom 10:6 ......, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (word) down from above: )
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (word) again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: