Do you get saved through baptism?

[Simon_Templar]

The question is, are you saved by your own profession of faith, i.e. your own work? Or are you saved by the grace of God which Catholics believe God grants to us through Baptism? It is not the water that saves us but the Gods sovereign grace alone.

And, if it is God's sovereign grace alone that saves us, does it really make a difference whether we are awake or under sedation?

I believe that if that man then dies under sedation he saved through God's Grace. If he wakes up and later rejects God then he will be in trouble. This leads to a discussion of free-will and Once-Saved always saved.

It is interesting that the Church prior to the reformation did (in parts) believe in predestination (at least in some form), but to my knowledge, never in 'once-saved always saved'. And the type of predestination they believed was always seen as in cooperation with, rather than in contravention of free-will.

This is how I have come to understand this issue regarding baptism and salvation. I can't say that it is perfectly Catholic, or even catholic necessarily.. I think it is, but I couldn't point to specific references to support it.

Baptism is the work in which God accomplishes spiritual regeneration, or as we commonly call it "born again".
Prior to this time man is spiritually dead to God, and seperated from communion with God. In baptism God, in response to faith regenerates, or creates a new spirit within the person that is in communion with God. That born again spirit is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

However, there still exists the soul and body of man which both must be restored and saved. The soul could also be called the self.. it is the mind, emotions, and will of self that are driven by yourself. In contrast the spirit is the will of God in you that wants to rule you.

Even after you are born again spiritually (occuring normally in baptism) the soul must still be converted. Sometimes also referred to as "heart conversion".
I think many protestants have confused the idea of 'conversion' which is a matter of the soul (mind emotions and will) with born again, which is a matter of spirit.

In any case, even after a person is born again they can resist the conversion of the soul by refusing to surrender their will to God's will revealed in their spirit. By refusing to live by the spirit and insisting on living by their own will instead.
Thus even if a person is born again, they can still end up not being saved because they may have refused to allow conversion to happen in their soul.

Thus I believe it is correct to say that the gift of being born again never goes away in this life.. you never need to be re-born again.. but at the same time you can still reject the saving grace of God by refusing to allow it to work in your soul.
If a person is born again and then spends a long time living in the natural "soulish" self, rather than in the spiritual life of God.. they don't need to be re-born again because that work was already done.. they just need to allow the life of God born in their spirit, to get into the rest of their being and begin to transform it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Baptism doesn't save. If a person never avails oneself of the waters of baptism, he is saved if he has faith in Jesus Christ, as per the believing thief on the cross.

 

[JustAsIam77]

One More Time

Baptism has nothing to do with being saved.

 

[Alive4Evermore]

Baptism doesn't save. If a person never avails oneself of the waters of baptism, he is saved if he has faith in Jesus Christ, as per the believing thief on the cross.

Well said.

 

[Simon_Templar]

Baptism doesn't save. If a person never avails oneself of the waters of baptism, he is saved if he has faith in Jesus Christ, as per the believing thief on the cross.

Well.. Peter disagrees with you. Personally.. I think I'll believe Peter (especially since he was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit).

 

[Simon_Templar]

One More Time

Baptism has nothing to do with being saved.

See above post regarding Peter.

 

[Blank123]

Do you get saved through baptism or by faith alone? Use verses if possible. Please no debates.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:


“ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them ” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Hebrews 10



5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f] - Romans 10

 

[Wade Smith]

Do you get saved through baptism or by faith alone? Use verses if possible. Please no debates.

Neither water baptism nor "faith" can save anyone.

James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Ironically, Jesus himself never actually said that faith "saves" anyone. Nor did Jesus or any of the apostles ever say that water baptism saved anyone.

In fact, Here is what Jesus said:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul's take on this:
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcision is actually the olded "Ordainance" in the Bible, and yet Paul says it means nothing without the keeping of the commandments.

The Apostle John says(some time after all the other apostles were already dead.)

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Now I want to emphasize nobody is perfect, and that isn't what is being conveyed here. But the verb conjugation "Keepeth" is more closely represented of the greek than our modern word "Keeps", because it is a specific form which has the meaning, "continues to keep" or rather, "a lifestyle of keeping".

So if a person claims to be a Christian, and does not keep the commandments as a matter of lifestyle, Jesus, Paul, James, and John all said they are a liar. Their "faith" is dead, and is really no faith at all.


So, can "faith" save anyone? No, faith alone cannot save anyone, as "the devils believe also and tremble."

A person who got water baptized, and thinks water baptism "saved" them, well, they have definitely never been saved.

Why can I say that?

1) First of all, whatever faith they do have is in the wrong thing to begin with. An ordinance cannot save you or me. Water baptism cannot save us, communion cannot save us. Church attendance or reading the Bible or prayer, or any of these other "good" religious looking things, many of which we SHOULD do, yet in and of themselves they cannot save anyone. If a person thinks water baptism (or any other ordinance) saved them, they are an idolater and are serving "another gospel, another Jesus, and another Spirit."

2) Faith alone cannot save. As affore mentioned, even Jesus never actually told anyone that "Faith alone" could save there eternal soul. Look for it, he really didn't.

John 3:16 he said this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

HOWEVER, when we read the whole context of that passage and cross reference it with other statements made by Jesus, we in fact do see an qualifier of obedience. "Deny yourself and take up the cross daily and follow me." is not just some metaphor. It really means a laying aside of self ambition, self efforts, self motivation and self justification, all of these must die.

Jesus said that every tree is known by its fruit. A good tree doesn't bring forth corrupt fruit, and a corrupt tree doesn't bring forth good fruit.


Matthew 7:12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Ask a Jew what the phrase, "Lord, Lord," means in reference to the nuances of the Hebrew mindset. It means that the speaker is claiming perfect, intimate knowledge of who God is. The speaker prophesied in the name of Jesus, he cast out devils (proving that at one time he must have been a real Christian, since Jesus himself said, "satan can't cast out satan",) this disproving also the whoel false doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved."



So these are many intertwined issues, as everything in the Bible is related to one another in many ways, but again I summarize:

1) Water baptism cannot save you, and moreover, is not evena prerequisite for salvation (see the repentant thief on the cross.)

2) Faith alone cannot save anyone.
Jesus said, "Repent AND believe the Gospel." and Paul said in Romans 6 that faith and grace do not give us liberty to sin or to just live as we please.

Repent and believe are two different things. One represents not only a "feeling sorry" for your sin, but a "turning away" from it. A conscious commitment to not do it again. "Godly sorrow worketh repentance...unto salvation." Salvation requires a repentance. If there is not a change in the allegedly "saved" individual, then we can safely say that in all likelyhood, they are not saved. "Be ye not conformed to the world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well.. Peter disagrees with you. Personally.. I think I'll believe Peter (especially since he was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit).

Only faith in Jesus Christ saves, as the thief on the cross will attest.

Ephesians 2:8
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.



It says nothing about baptism there!

 

[JustAsIam77]

Neither water baptism nor "faith" can save anyone.

James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


Ironically, Jesus himself never actually said that faith "saves" anyone. Nor did Jesus or any of the apostles ever say that water baptism saved anyone.

In fact, Here is what Jesus said:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Paul's take on this:
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcision is actually the olded "Ordainance" in the Bible, and yet Paul says it means nothing without the keeping of the commandments.

The Apostle John says(some time after all the other apostles were already dead.)

1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Now I want to emphasize nobody is perfect, and that isn't what is being conveyed here. But the verb conjugation "Keepeth" is more closely represented of the greek than our modern word "Keeps", because it is a specific form which has the meaning, "continues to keep" or rather, "a lifestyle of keeping".

So if a person claims to be a Christian, and does not keep the commandments as a matter of lifestyle, Jesus, Paul, James, and John all said they are a liar. Their "faith" is dead, and is really no faith at all.


So, can "faith" save anyone? No, faith alone cannot save anyone, as "the devils believe also and tremble."

A person who got water baptized, and thinks water baptism "saved" them, well, they have definitely never been saved.

Why can I say that?

1) First of all, whatever faith they do have is in the wrong thing to begin with. An ordinance cannot save you or me. Water baptism cannot save us, communion cannot save us. Church attendance or reading the Bible or prayer, or any of these other "good" religious looking things, many of which we SHOULD do, yet in and of themselves they cannot save anyone. If a person thinks water baptism (or any other ordinance) saved them, they are an idolater and are serving "another gospel, another Jesus, and another Spirit."

2) Faith alone cannot save. As affore mentioned, even Jesus never actually told anyone that "Faith alone" could save there eternal soul. Look for it, he really didn't.

John 3:16 he said this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

HOWEVER, when we read the whole context of that passage and cross reference it with other statements made by Jesus, we in fact do see an qualifier of obedience. "Deny yourself and take up the cross daily and follow me." is not just some metaphor. It really means a laying aside of self ambition, self efforts, self motivation and self justification, all of these must die.

Jesus said that every tree is known by its fruit. A good tree doesn't bring forth corrupt fruit, and a corrupt tree doesn't bring forth good fruit.


Matthew 7:12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Ask a Jew what the phrase, "Lord, Lord," means in reference to the nuances of the Hebrew mindset. It means that the speaker is claiming perfect, intimate knowledge of who God is. The speaker prophesied in the name of Jesus, he cast out devils (proving that at one time he must have been a real Christian, since Jesus himself said, "satan can't cast out satan",) this disproving also the whoel false doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved."



So these are many intertwined issues, as everything in the Bible is related to one another in many ways, but again I summarize:

1) Water baptism cannot save you, and moreover, is not evena prerequisite for salvation (see the repentant thief on the cross.)

2) Faith alone cannot save anyone.
Jesus said, "Repent AND believe the Gospel." and Paul said in Romans 6 that faith and grace do not give us liberty to sin or to just live as we please.

Repent and believe are two different things. One represents not only a "feeling sorry" for your sin, but a "turning away" from it. A conscious commitment to not do it again. "Godly sorrow worketh repentance...unto salvation." Salvation requires a repentance. If there is not a change in the allegedly "saved" individual, then we can safely say that in all likelyhood, they are not saved. "Be ye not conformed to the world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Galatians 2:16-21 (King James Version)
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[Wade Smith]

Galatians 2:16-21 (King James Version)
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1) Justification and salvation are not the same thing.

2) Given what JESUS said in the Gospels, along with what James and John also said, it is evident that the "standard interpretation" of many of Paul's writings is seriously flawed.

3) The Bible specificly indicates that a person who is initially saved, justified, and even has "Gifts of the Spirit" can still end up lost (See Saul in 1 Samuel, and read 2 Peter 2:22).


People can point to "Pauline Doctrine" and say, "But Paul said, Paul said..."

But I can point to JESUS and John and Peter and James and say, "Wait a minute, they all said this!" Which I clearly have given.

Do th ey contradict one another? No.

People have simply taken some of Paul's statements out of context as an excuse to live in sin and still try to call themselves "Justified" or "Saved".

But I quote James again:

"Can faith save him? ....Faith without works is dead!"

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well.. Peter disagrees with you. Personally.. I think I'll believe Peter (especially since he was directly inspired by the Holy Spirit).

Well, I LOVE Peter! so, I hardly think I said anything that he would have disagreed with. You must be mistaken.