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Do you get saved through baptism?

Secundulus

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Alright! The main question was if I needed baptism to get into heaven. This is not a debate thread. So no more debates or arguments just answer the question.
In accordance with the scriptures baptism is necessary. (This is also in accordance with the earliest extra-scriptural writing that remain, The Didache, or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles.

This is what Christ commanded.

In some cases, a person who has placed their faith in Christ may be prevented by circumstance from being Baptized. In this case, God will not forsake him simply because of that physical circumstance.

In Catholic theology this is called Baptism of Blood or Baptism of desire.

But under normal circumstance, Baptism by water is necessary.

How can one be said to place their full faith in Christ when they refuse to believe what he said?

""Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit," (Matthew 28:19, NASB95)

Why would he say this if he really meant something else?
 
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JustAsIam77

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Alright! The main question was if I needed baptism to get into heaven. This is not a debate thread. So no more debates or arguments just answer the question.

I answered your question early in this thread. NO.

Opinions vary obviously.
 
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Secundulus

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But under normal circumstance, Baptism by water is necessary.
To take this one step further.

Baptism is first of all the work of God in the regeneration of the soul.

But secondly, baptism is the initiation of the Christian into the Body of Christ - The Church.

Through this initiation, the old person dies and the new becomes one with Christ and his body on earth.

The water is of course nothing but a physical symbol to which the physical human can relate.

The work is done by God, to purify the soul, in order that one may unite with Christ.
 
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JustAsIam77

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To take this one step further.

Baptism is first of all the work of God in the regeneration of the soul.

But secondly, baptism is the initiation of the Christian into the Body of Christ - The Church.

Through this initiation, the old person dies and the new becomes one with Christ and his body on earth.

The water is of course nothing but a physical symbol to which the physical human can relate.

The work is done by God, to purify the soul, in order that one may unite with Christ.

I'm not sure if the OP thought the answers to the original question would be cut & dried but they are not.

IMO we should say yes or no and refrain from debate, (in this thread) per the wishes of the OP.

I would suggest a new thread to debate this issue if there's enough interest.
 
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Secundulus

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I'm not sure if the OP thought the answers to the original question would be cut & dried but they are not.

IMO we should say yes or no and refrain from debate, (in this thread) per the wishes of the OP.

I would suggest a new thread to debate this issue if there's enough interest.
Sounds like a good idea. I think our various opinions have been well presented here.
 
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Ave Maria

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We are born again in baptism and baptism does wash away our sins so you could say that baptism does save you.

(NAB) 1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 
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Floatingaxe

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We are born again in baptism and baptism does wash away our sins so you could say that baptism does save you.

(NAB) 1 Peter 3:21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism saves no one. It is a step we take in obedience to God AFTER one is SAVED.


Every single person baptized in the Bible were believers first.
 
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sportsguy83

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I personally believe that baptism is essential for salvation but it is not the cause of it.
In Mark 16:16 it says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned".
Acts 2:38 says "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The example of baptism that I am aware of in the scriptures is baptism by immersion. If you have the desire to be physically baptized and are unable to due to illness or even the lack of someone willing to baptize then I assume that God will take that into account, but to my knowledge the scriptures do not discuss this circumstance. (Sort of like the question, if you were stranded on an island alone could you baptize yourself?)
To the issue of baptizing children, that is one I do not understand. I myself was baptized as an infant, but when I grew up I was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and I do not consider my parents having me baptized at birth as a real baptism. I don't understand how someone can make that decision for you and it having any type of value. How can you even be sure that it occurred if you do not remember it? What if someone was lying to you and you really were not baptized?
 
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Floatingaxe

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I personally believe that baptism is essential for salvation but it is not the cause of it.
In Mark 16:16 it says "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned".
Acts 2:38 says "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The example of baptism that I am aware of in the scriptures is baptism by immersion. If you have the desire to be physically baptized and are unable to due to illness or even the lack of someone willing to baptize then I assume that God will take that into account, but to my knowledge the scriptures do not discuss this circumstance. (Sort of like the question, if you were stranded on an island alone could you baptize yourself?)
To the issue of baptizing children, that is one I do not understand. I myself was baptized as an infant, but when I grew up I was baptized for the forgiveness of sins and I do not consider my parents having me baptized at birth as a real baptism. I don't understand how someone can make that decision for you and it having any type of value. How can you even be sure that it occurred if you do not remember it? What if someone was lying to you and you really were not baptized?

Great post! Welcome to CF!

welcome-1.jpg
 
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desmalia

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I have a Catholic friend whose Gnostic husband had a heart transplant years ago. As he was being prepped for surgery, she was very afraid that he would die and go to hell. So she called in a priest and had her husband baptized while he was under sedation. I'm curious if there are any Catholics who agree with what she did and believe he will now escape hell even if he never comes to believe in Christ.

My husband's church baptized him when he was a baby. Then as adults, they do a profession of faith, but are not baptized again (and he left that church before doing a profession of faith). So as such he's never been baptized as an adult. Though, now that he's studied it more he feels they had it backwards in his church, that baptism should be for the adult who professes faith, not for the baby. So he does want to be baptized now. I agree with him on this. I was baptized in my early 20's. It was most definitely a result of God's work in me (sanctification), not the thing that saved me (justification).
 
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Floatingaxe

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I have a Catholic friend whose Gnostic husband had a heart transplant years ago. As he was being prepped for surgery, she was very afraid that he would die and go to hell. So she called in a priest and had her husband baptized while he was under sedation. I'm curious if there are any Catholics who agree with what she did and believe he will now escape hell even if he never comes to believe in Christ.

My husband's church baptized him when he was a baby. Then as adults, they do a profession of faith, but are not baptized again (and he left that church before doing a profession of faith). So as such he's never been baptized as an adult. Though, now that he's studied it more he feels they had it backwards in his church, that baptism should be for the adult who professes faith, not for the baby. So he does want to be baptized now. I agree with him on this. I was baptized in my early 20's. It was most definitely a result of God's work in me (sanctification), not the thing that saved me (justification).


Hi, Desmalia! :wave:

The woman arranged for the baptism to assuage her own fears.
It did nothing for her husband but get him wet.
 
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desmalia

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Hi, Desmalia! :wave:

The woman arranged for the baptism to assuage her own fears.
It did nothing for her huisband but get him wet.
Well I agree with you on that, of course. But you and are not Catholic. I'm wondering what they think about it. :)
 
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Secundulus

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Well I agree with you on that, of course. But you and are not Catholic. I'm wondering what they think about it. :)
The question is, are you saved by your own profession of faith, i.e. your own work? Or are you saved by the grace of God which Catholics believe God grants to us through Baptism? It is not the water that saves us but the Gods sovereign grace alone.

And, if it is God's sovereign grace alone that saves us, does it really make a difference whether we are awake or under sedation?

I believe that if that man then dies under sedation he saved through God's Grace. If he wakes up and later rejects God then he will be in trouble. This leads to a discussion of free-will and Once-Saved always saved.
 
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Floatingaxe

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The question is, are you saved by your own profession of faith, i.e. your own work? Or are you saved by the grace of God which Catholics believe God grants to us through Baptism? It is not the water that saves us but the Gods sovereign grace alone.

And, if it is God's sovereign grace alone that saves us, does it really make a difference whether we are awake or under sedation?

I believe that if that man then dies under sedation he saved through God's Grace. If he wakes up and later rejects God then he will be in trouble. This leads to a discussion of free-will and Once-Saved always saved.

There is a problem with that. Scripture says, "Repent and be baptized", a two-fold COMMAND. Without repentance, baptism means nothing.

That is why it is called the believer's baptism. Only those who have salvation are eligible for the waters of baptism.
 
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desmalia

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The question is, are you saved by your own profession of faith, i.e. your own work?
Of course not.

Or are you saved by the grace of God which Catholics believe God grants to us through Baptism? It is not the water that saves us but the Gods sovereign grace alone.
Right.

And, if it is God's sovereign grace alone that saves us, does it really make a difference whether we are awake or under sedation?
Absolutely. Faith that is given by God's grace is not an unconscious thing. It certainly is of His will, not any act on our part. But it is not without an intimate relationship either. He works in our hearts and minds. Someone pouring water on an unconscious person in no way causes salvation. Faith by it's very nature is conscious.

I believe that if that man then dies under sedation he saved through God's Grace. If he wakes up and later rejects God then he will be in trouble. This leads to a discussion of free-will and Once-Saved always saved.
I guess it could lead down that road...

Just to follow up, John did survive the surgery and that was quite a few years ago. And he is still Gnostic. Might God bring him to salvation one day? Absolutely. But if so, that is according to His perfect will, not because a priest baptized him when he was unconscious.
 
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Secundulus

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But if so, that is according to His perfect will, not because a priest baptized him when he was unconscious.
Just to clarify, we believe that God's Grace imparted at Baptism erases original sin and allows one to again commune with God like Adam did before the fall. Baptism does not cancel free-will so, just as Adam did, man can continue to reject God even while in a state of communion with him.

Baptism itself does not save, unless one dies immediately afterwards. Continued faith in God alone is what saves.
 
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desmalia

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Just to clarify, we believe that God's Grace imparted at Baptism erases original sin and allows one to again commune with God like Adam did before the fall. Baptism does not cancel free-will so, just as Adam did, man can continue to reject God even while in a state of communion with him.

Baptism itself does not save, unless one dies immediately afterwards. Continued faith in God alone is what saves.
Well, I disagree, obviously. But I did ask what you believed, and you explained. So, thank you for that.
 
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Simon_Templar

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There is a problem with that. Scripture says, "Repent and be baptized", a two-fold COMMAND. Without repentance, baptism means nothing.

That is why it is called the believer's baptism. Only those who have salvation are eligible for the waters of baptism.


this is an example of a common mistake of interpetation.

The example you are talking about is Peter giving a sermon to a crowd of people in the temple on pentecost.

You are taking one phrase out of Peter's sermon and essentially saying that this phrase is a doctrinal stricture (in other words this is the only way it can ever happen, this is THE doctrinal definition).
However, Peter didn't say that in his sermon. More over, his sermon that day was not given as a doctrinal commentary, or a treatise or anything about abstract principles of doctrine at all.
In fact his sermon was completely evangelistic and PRACTICAL. That is the important point.

What Peter was telling them was what that specific group of people needed to do in order to be saved. His words apply specifically to that group of people in that context, and not necessarily as a doctrinal stricture for all people in all circumstances.

For example.. if your assertion here were basically correct, that a person MUST repent and be baptized in order to be saved. It would be impossible for infants or young children to be saved because they can not repent.

Most people who have similar views to you, believe something akin to the idea of an age of accountability before which a person need not repent because they aren't responsible etc...
However, the problem is Peter in the instance you quote makes no mention of this at all... so if his words there are meant to be a universal truth for all people in all circumstances, then there can't possibly be any such thing as an age of accountability before which people need not repent.

If you consider specifically the case of adults who are capable of repenting, you will find that Catholics, just like all other orthodox Christians believe that they must repent before receiving baptism.

However, a key difference is that in the Catholic view the person's salvation is accomplished by BOTH repentance AND baptism, while many protestants hold that it is accomplished ONLY by repentance.

The situation with the unconscious man reminds me of the instance in scripture where the paralytic man's friends brought him to Jesus, and cut a whole in the roof to get the man in to see Jesus.

In that instance the man himself could do nothing, he could not get himself in to see Jesus.. he could literally not demonstrate any faith at all. All of the faith demonstrated was demonstrated by his friends in all that they did to get him in to see Jesus.
When Jesus healed the man he said "your faith has made you whole."

Sometimes people aren't able to express their own faith for whatever reason and only by the faith of their friends or family are they brought before God.. but in the end, as far as I can see, God will not save a person who has no faith of their own. It might be even better to say it this way... God will not save a person who will not receive faith of their own.

The reality of the matter is that we can not have faith without God giving it to us.. we can not even repent without God giving us conviction and then even repentance itself.

It seems strange to me that people can accept that repentance is really a work of God, not man... but they can't accept that baptism is. In my opinion this is because of the poison of modernism that wormed its way into Christianity... but thats just me :)
 
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