Do you follow both Torahs?

[Desert Rose]

We can safely leave the Tallit issue alone. Its not relevant to the point i am trying to make, for Torah doesnt prescribe you to wear it at all times.

I see you disobeying many other straightforward Torah laws while claiming that " All Torah is still in effect".
Why i am so puzzled - even Jewish scholars and theologians, that studied Torah all their lives say that not ALL Torah laws are to be obeyed. Why in the world do you think you are smarter then the entire world, buddy? And i speak with all the brotherly love i can express by limited means of the internet

 

[SGM4HIM]

Tertius,

I just discovered site with audio teaching sermons by Jewish MJ leader Doug Friedman. The title is "The Mosaic Laws." He discusses in great detail the ability to keep Mosaic Law and even has an excel sheet. He breaks down the 613 and gives you % that different groups seem to keep. Jew, Messianics and Christian.

It will surprise you and is definitely worth the time it takes to listen to !

The Mosaic Laws

 

[TertiusC]

I mentioned already that sin sacrifices are not longer required,sure.

No, it didnt answer my question, sorry.

Do you touch your wife is not a personal question. I am not asking about sex. Touching is a public act. Do you touch your wife during that time of the month or do you refrain from it? Its a legitimate question, there is nothing wrong about it. Issues related to niddah are openly discussed in jewish community when planning weddings, re: childbirth, etc. Its shouldnt bother you more then topics on circumcision.

Ok, lets rephrase it: Do you disobey that Torah rule? Or obey it?

Next: Do you stone gay people, sorcerers, witches, fortunetellers, followers of other religions, kill people working on Sabbath?

I am not against Torah, mind you. I am against ridiculous statement that ALL TORAH is the law for us to obey. Only a total crazy person would say that the entire Torah except sin sacrifice( those we discussed and agreed on already) is mandatory.


You can get arrested, Tertius, for real - I strongly dont recommend you to follow ENTIRE TORAH. Many of the laws are seen as crimes in modern judicial system, you will do some serious time.

This is the last time I will talk about that specific Torah commandment as I have already stated that it's inappropriate. If you don't think so, that's not my problem. If I state it's inappropriate, it's not your job to convince me otherwise. I don't know you at all, there is no requirement for me to discuss that with you.

Saying that I am not yet obeying all should satisfy your question. Ask a more broad question, like "are you going to obey all". And I'll be honest with you, ask about something on the same level but not as personal and I'll give you an answer.

If you want to interpret Torah as saying that we have to stone all homosexual people on the planet. Then why didn't Israel go on a rampage and destroy every last sexual sinner?

If I don't obey the whole Torah, what use is it if I obey a little?

If you were told that reading your bible or praying (anywhere) was illegal, would you do it?

Do you think context (not being in Israel as part of the Israelites to being in the Assembly/Church) makes a difference in how laws should be interpreted? Do you follow Yahushua's example?

 

[TertiusC]

We can safely leave the Tallit issue alone. Its not relevant to the point i am trying to make, for Torah doesnt prescribe you to wear it at all times.

I see you disobeying many other straightforward Torah laws while claiming that " All Torah is still in effect".
Why i am so puzzled - even Jewish scholars and theologians, that studied Torah all their lives say that not ALL Torah laws are to be obeyed. Why in the world do you think you are smarter then the entire world, buddy? And i speak with all the brotherly love i can express by limited means of the internet

Please then remove your condescension.

If you would like to show my WHY certain laws should not be kept (not just because they are outdated) etc. then tell me. I'm open to that.

You seem to want to force me to keep all and prove that I do.

Which of all of the 613 are still to be kept. I don't have an exact list, I know some are not in effect. I don't have a perfect list yet.

If a law in Torah does not apply anymore and I do no obey it, that does not mean that I do not still obey all of Torah. For there are many scriptures in Torah which are not commands like a description of Moses walking up a mountain. In the same way a command ceases to be a command when it is no longer valid. In this way I can still "obey all Torah" or maybe to satisfy your tastes all "applicable" Torah.

 

[TertiusC]

Tertius,

I just discovered site with audio teaching sermons by Jewish MJ leader Doug Friedman. The title is "The Mosaic Laws." He discusses in great detail the ability to keep Mosaic Law and even has an excel sheet. He breaks down the 613 and gives you % that different groups seem to keep. Jew, Messianics and Christian.

It will surprise you and is definitely worth the time it takes to listen to !

The Mosaic Laws

Thanks SGM, I'll check it out

 

[TertiusC]

But you contradict yourself!! You are saying , i can point the posts,that Torah is to be observed partially. You dont like all of the Laws. Some you dismiss.

Again, it has nothing to do with sacrifices, as i already mentioned.

So you are not physically touching your wife and consider her unclean during a certain time of the month? Thats Written Torah !

Can you specifically, since you so stated, quote where I said that there are some laws that I do not like and some which I dismiss.

With "do not like" post all that you have seen. With "which I dismiss" post those which still apply, i.e. sin sacrifices do not apply.

Since you wish to say that this is what I portrayed. Please back up your statement. Also, I am quick to apologize if I made a mistake. But show me my mistake.

 

[ContraMundum]

You said "or can daven with a tallit". Does that just mean you can have a tallit katan or you can have a tallit katan and a larger tallit for the synagogue?

Both. Most synagogues have a place set aside near the entrance where spare tallitot and kippot are kept for visitors to use. A Jewish male cannot daven in shule without them. Because the carrying of items is forbidden on shabbos these spares for visitors or those who do not keep their tallitot, teffilin and siddurs at the shule somewhere is a necessity.

Most Orthodox men wear a tallit katan daily and throw on a tallit when davening in shule or in a minyan.

 

[ContraMundum]

We can safely leave the Tallit issue alone. Its not relevant to the point i am trying to make, for Torah doesnt prescribe you to wear it at all times.

Thanks for pointing this out, but in fact it is even simpler- the Torah doesn't prescribe our Gentile friend to wear a tallis or even tzitzis EVER.

But, if he chooses to put himself under that one law, he must put himself under all 613 mitzvot, according to the Torah and the NT (which are in agreement on this point 110%) That means he's got to have a bris, observe kashrus, the laws of niddah, payess and a whole lot more.

 

[Desert Rose]

If a law in Torah does not apply anymore and I do no obey it, that does not mean that I do not still obey all of Torah.

now you spiked my curiosity.

You deemed some Torah Laws unapplicable, leaving for yourself a list of things you chosen to obey.

Many others have done the same thing. So the list is different, and what is "full torah " that is the age long question and point of debate and big reason why we have the division among the branches of Judaism

Your version of Torah is different from other people versions of Torah.And that is exactly what i was trying to prove.
You saying your particular list of laws that you chose from the Torah is important, another messianic comes with a different list and says " well, Tertius' list is wrong.Mine is "Full Torah mandatory to obedience!"

The problem is - its still individual "pick and chose Torah",even you, of course( just as the other guy) think that your version is right.

Sorry for appearing condescending in another post. I do sincerely apologize and take it all back if i offended you.

 

[Ivy]

Most Orthodox men wear a tallit katan daily and throw on a tallit when davening in shule or in a minyan.

Say, in the case of the former, how do they get around the rule about not wearing a tallit in the bathroom?

 

[anisavta]

Been on vacation so I'm just coming in on this -
To say we obey ALL of Torah is just not true. None of us do - only Yeshua did. And that's what the book of 1st John is about - having a way to deal with our not obeying Torah fully all of the time.
If we say we TRY to obey Torah (instruction) then we are being truthful and HaShem still loves us and gives us the Ruach Hakodesh to assist us.
The older I get the less absolute I become.

 

[ContraMundum]

Say, in the case of the former, how do they get around the rule about not wearing a tallit in the bathroom?

It gets complicated. Depends on one's halacha. Usually, the Tallit Katan is allowed in bathrooms but a Tallit Gadol is not. However, this is predicated on the Tallit Katan not being worn against the skin- it goes over an undershirt but under the outer shirt.

 

[ContraMundum]

The older I get the less absolute I become.

Are you absolutely sure about that?

 

[Lulav]

It gets complicated. Depends on one's halacha. Usually, the Tallit Katan is allowed in bathrooms but a Tallit Gadol is not. However, this is predicated on the Tallit Katan not being worn against the skin- it goes over an undershirt but under the outer shirt.

Doesn't it also have to do with the Katan not having an atara and the Gadol having one, although I don't know of any that carry THE NAME on them any longer, but the blessing is still there.

 

[visionary]

It gets complicated. Depends on one's halacha. Usually, the Tallit Katan is allowed in bathrooms but a Tallit Gadol is not. However, this is predicated on the Tallit Katan not being worn against the skin- it goes over an undershirt but under the outer shirt.

It almost sounds like an obsessive compulsive disorder in which the fixation is on the object rather than seeing the bigger picture as to the purpose that God had in mind.

 

[Desert Rose]

Been on vacation so I'm just coming in on this -

hope you had fun in the sun and enjoyed vacation.

 

[Desert Rose]

It gets complicated. Depends on one's halacha. Usually, the Tallit Katan is allowed in bathrooms but a Tallit Gadol is not. However, this is predicated on the Tallit Katan not being worn against the skin- it goes over an undershirt but under the outer shirt.

oh, wait before that we ought to remember that its customary to make tallit katan from an undershirt,its acceptable. Even though Shulchan Aruch argues that Tallit Katan as well as Tallit Gadol has to be made out of wool. Also the cut should be longer then half the lenght of the undershirt, according to the Shulchan Aruch.

Good descriptions
P'til Tekhelet - Hebrew website
and a short movie
http://www.shtaygen.co.il/?CategoryID=1 ... cleID=3192

Also we have to make sure that the threads are tzitzit עבודת יד (and not עבודת מכונ&#1492.

Mass produced on a machine( equipment) threads are acceptable, some even put certificate on them,

http://www.ajudaica.com/item/259_43/Prima+A.A+Tallit
but the real, true Jews are not going for that abomination! Only hand made, their are way, way holier!!

Contra Mundum, were are you going? What do you mean "need a cuppa" ? Those crazy brits! We discussing important matters here!
Make sure its tied right, ( in english, in case you still havent learned hebrew, you sweaty philistines)

Beged Ivri -- Tying Tzitzit with Techelet from Radzin,the Chilazon,blue corners,tzitzit,fringes,tzitzes,blue dye

 

[TertiusC]

now you spiked my curiosity.

You deemed some Torah Laws unapplicable, leaving for yourself a list of things you chosen to obey.

Many others have done the same thing. So the list is different, and what is "full torah " that is the age long question and point of debate and big reason why we have the division among the branches of Judaism

Your version of Torah is different from other people versions of Torah.And that is exactly what i was trying to prove.
You saying your particular list of laws that you chose from the Torah is important, another messianic comes with a different list and says " well, Tertius' list is wrong.Mine is "Full Torah mandatory to obedience!"

The problem is - its still individual "pick and chose Torah",even you, of course( just as the other guy) think that your version is right.

Sorry for appearing condescending in another post. I do sincerely apologize and take it all back if i offended you.

Rose, I know what point you are trying to make. Next time, just state it instead of trying to trap me, that would be appreciated. Then we can have a rational discussion about it.

I don't deem a list of Torah Laws unapplicable.

I start with this

1. the blood sacrifice for sin.

Do you disagree with that? If you do, you are just like you accuse me of being, picking and choosing.

See there's a difference between doing only those things you want/like to do because of the appearance. I don't care about the appearance. And as Anisavta said, if I fall, I have grace. But I will not ignore His Torah.

Lets not get into detail and make a hypothetical situation. Say I only didn't practice the sin offerings (animal and not), lets for the moment forget about things that have also passed. And then someone I knew only tried to eat according to Torah.

Just because I obey partial Torah and that person obeys partial Torah, are we the same? Are we both "pick and choose" observers?

 

[Desert Rose]

I don't deem a list of Torah Laws unapplicable

yes, you do. You just said that some Laws are not for you. If you say they are applicable, why dont you at least attempt to obey them?

Some Laws of your personal choosing you do dismiss becasue you just dont like them. You do not observe All Torah, but Partial Torah.

Leave the blood sacrifices alone. Nobody says those are still in effect. Because there is no Temple. I said it 4 times already.

 

[chetermezacha]

I am only going by Yeshua's words

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.

And I will write on him:
the name of My God
and
the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.
And
I will write on him
My new name.

​

The point is there will be a name change for the Father and Son but we are not told what it is because it isn't time yet.

You should read up on what happened in Yavneh, then maybe you will understand what was in Yeshua's time oral and what is from Yavneh on.

this is an important point as from Yavhe we see a complete and radical change in Judaism to the one that most reflect contemporary Judaism. When we talk about following or not the oral Torah we need to consider this fact, I for one will not be a disciple of Yavhe.

P.S sorry I not been around this week, I had computer trouble and then took me a while to read all the replies...fast reading them now. Also, oral tradition is good to be constantly in healthy debate as Torah, to be followed or not, is non-questionable, the debates were in every generation and how we engage with oral tradition defines the type of Hebrew we are, Orthodox (embrace it), Karaite (do not embrace it)...and a whole host of in-betweens. For me I think its healthy to follow those traditions as long as they never transgress the Torah, so am I following the Rabbinic Calendar this year...no, I follow the Karaite's and let them do the leg work going to Jerusalem to find barley in a state of Aviv