Do you consider?

[Reformationist]

I have just had one of the most aggravating exhanges in all my time here on this MB and it made me wonder something.

When you participate in a thread, do you actually consider what the other person says or are you just waiting for your turn to give your opinion?

More often than not, and I am just as guilty as anyone else, it seems as if people don't even consider the possibility that they are wrong, no matter what.

Are you like that? Do you give the opinions of others any respect if they contradict your own beliefs? Do you consider what they're saying and consider the possibility that you may be wrong and it would be worthwhile to compare what they say against the Word?

In all my time as a member of this MB I've seen maaaaybe 3 people change their views. It seems as if all people want to do is show those who disagree with them how wrong they are.

I am getting so tired of the arguments...

 

[Benedicta00]

Sometimes I think you have to let things run it's course, answer the aggravating questions and put up with all the nonsense in order to really see something from the other side.

I think if someone really wants to have the other person see their view then they have to allow that person the chance to work through all the issues that they may have pertaining to that view until they can get to that place where they can see where the other person is coming from.

It is a process that has to be able to run it's course with out the other person, losing patience and freaking out on them.

 

[Reformationist]

I think if someone really wants to have the other person see their view then they have to allow that person the chance to work through all the issues that they may have pertaining to that view until they can get to that place where they can see where the other person is coming from.

Okay. I get that. The problem, as I see it, is that people are so adamant in their views that they don't seem to even be able to come to agreement on anything so any future theological discussions are moot.

Take you and I for example. It almost seems as if I've got two choices in discussions with you. I can choose to acknowledge that I disagree and then just not debate anything with you or I can see things your way. You give no authority to anyone except your church so it seems like a waste of time to debate something with a Catholic Christian when you know, up front, that they are never going to consider what you say if it disagrees with the doctrines of their church.

Have you ever honestly considered a view that is contrary to the Catholic church's position on the Gospel? By considered I mean, have you ever studied to see if someone else was right even if it meant that your church is wrong or do you just operate under the belief that your church is unable to err in Scriptural interpretation?

 

[Terri]

I don't expect people to change their minds. I come in here to try to learn from people who have similiar beliefs as I do. Unfortunately this is not allowed when people who have such different views are allowed to come in here and tell us how wrong we are. It just runs people away--but, I think that is perhaps the purpose.

If those in this forum would not willingly engage in debate with these people who come in here just to make fun and tell us how wrong we are things might be better.

 

[Reformationist]

I don't expect people to change their minds. I come in here to try to learn from people who have similiar beliefs as I do.

But what happens when you hear something that contradicts what you believe from someone who holds to dissimilar beliefs? Do you just disregard it on that basis or do you consider the possibility that that person is right and you are wrong?

 

[Terri]

But what happens when you hear something that contradicts what you believe from someone who holds to dissimilar beliefs? Do you just disregard it on that basis or do you consider the possibility that that person is right and you are wrong?

I certainly consider what people say.

I am constantly praying that God will not let me be deceived. So, yes I believe I can be wrong (deceived) and I have no fear in looking at that possibility because I trust the Lord to protect me and to lead me into all truth.

But, how many times do you have to consider what someone says when they say the same thing over and over?

 

[Photini]

By considered I mean, have you ever studied to see if someone else was right even if it meant that your church is wrong or do you just operate under the belief that your church is unable to err in Scriptural interpretation?

Hi Don, I answered this on the other thread too. I'm sorry if I caused your frustration in any way. My sincerest apologies.
When you say "study to see if someone else was right even if it meant that your church is wrong"....how do you study to find the "correct" interpretation of Scripture? I am a baby Christian, so interpretation is not what I do. Part of my learning was tearing down my pride and realising that my own opinions amount to a hill of beans. I take a great deal of comfort in knowing that the doctrines of my Church have been held and practiced all along. It seems right to me, that any new interpretation or new doctrine that comes along is put under a microscope and approached in a very skeptical way.

 

[Godzman]

I try to consider what other people are saying but that is not possible all the time, sometimes I try to get my opinion across more then anything

 

[Photini]

I am getting so tired of the arguments...

Me too. There are times when I can hardly believe what I'm reading.

 

[Reformationist]

But, how many times do you have to consider what someone says when they say the same thing over and over?

Well, I think our Christian life is a series of progressions. We experience something, we study. We experience something, we study. We grow in knowledge. Things that seemed unbiblical at an earlier point in our walk maybe seem like well grounded Christianity. It wasn't because it changed but rather because we changed.

I think the important thing to do is consider what our own beliefs are and how they measure up to the Word of God. If, by studying, we determine that we have erroneous beliefs then at that point we are going to be more receptive to other beliefs.

So, like the Bereans, we should constantly measure what we are taught against the Word. Why would this be considered a good thing if we are just going to think our church doesn't make a mistake in spiritual matters?

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. I get that. The problem, as I see it, is that people are so adamant in their views that they don't seem to even be able to come to agreement on anything so any future theological discussions are moot.

Yes, perhaps but it also could be that they are running scared because of what they always held dear to them, their world as they know is being turned upside down.

You have to be patient with someone when they act a fool because they can be fighting the flesh and they may be freaking out because they are discovering that what they thought was truth, may not be.

You don't think giving consideration to another beliefs system is a earth shattering experience if you see there may be truth to it?

Take you and I for example. It almost seems as if I've got two choices in discussions with you. I can choose to acknowledge that I disagree and then just not debate anything with you or I can see things your way. You give no authority to anyone except your church so it seems like a waste of time to debate something with a Catholic Christian when you know, up front, that they are never going to consider what you say if it disagrees with the doctrines of their church.

That is not true. If I were to consider anything at all about the reformed belief, how could I from you? You are not willing to be patient enough, leaving the work to be done up to the Holy Spirit to answer the questions that I pose to you about the theology. For instance, I know what the belief is, but what I do not know is why you believe that this is the correct interpretation of what the scriptures say.

If you can get me past my issues with Calvinism, that being one, then I may consider but if you are the one who is insisting I just pick up the bible and read it with consideration to how you say it interprets with out ever giving me any explanation why I should ignore the Church, the papacy, tradition, etc, then how do you expect me to?

Have you ever honestly considered a view that is contrary to the Catholic church's position on the Gospel?

Yeah, been there done that, I was raised Pentecostal, Lutheran etc. And I even did the "it's what I think it's all about" thing and I have come to learn and believe that the Church has the fullness of truth, all the truth that stays the same with out having to "ever reform."

By considered I mean, have you ever studied to see if someone else was right even if it meant that your church is wrong or do you just operate under the belief that your church is unable to err in Scriptural interpretation?

I'll tell you a true personal story in brief.

We, my siblings and I were all baptized Catholic but was raised Protestant and was in and out of every denomination there is.

I am grateful to my Dad who is a Catholic himself but left the Church for Protestantism, that he raised us in Church. The Protestant faith beginning with the Lutherans literally taught me who God is, that I should fear offending him and that he loves me. Had I not been brought up with the faith I had, I do not know where I would be right now.

As a teenager and a young adult I had gotten away from Church but I always retained my fear of offending God and always believed there is a God. When I was about 23 or so, I experienced a conversion of faith, I do not know why or what provoked it, I know it was by God’s grace alone and I responded to the holy Spirit living in me and I knew off the bat it would be the faith that I was baptized into that I would look into.

I did and I was comfortable accepting all that the church said with out having to know why until my sister who was experiencing her own adult conversion flipped out over me being Catholic and actually fought with me over this, asking me all anti catholic rhetoric questions we have all become all to familiar with here.

“Where in the bible this, where in the bible that” is all I heard and I also had the same thing coming from my dad, so I said to myself that I know the Church is the truth but I have to learn about this and so I studied and scrutinized the Church, trying to find how they could be wrong and I could not find that they were and I can honestly say that I found out for myself that it is indeed truth.

I never doubted once, ever even when I was being raised in the non catholic denomination, I knew the Catholics were the true Church, don't ask me how I knew, I just knew but it was not until I was first challenged to learn the “why” we are true that I really came to embrace the Church as being the true Church.

So to make a long story short, yes I have studied and I have come from a protestant background, I can say that my decision to be Catholic is a educated well researched and thought out one.

Sadly my dad is still searching for that “perfect” denomination by hopping from Church to Church and my sister has, well apostatized the faith as far as I am concerned, she still believes in God but she abandoned him for a life of sin but still thinks she is “saved”.

So you see, I have seen first hand what “no man made Church authority” leads to.

What about you? Have you ever looked at the Church and considered some of the bold claims that she makes? She makes some bold claims, have you ever looked into why she can make those claims?

I tell you what I do admire about Calvinism; it does have an authority. It is consistent and "universal" meaning the same theology is embraced with consistency through out the varying denominations that teach it. It has a theory and it is held to by all who embrace it as truth, no one can basically "wing" Calvinism by themselves adding what they *think* it means.

Problem I have is on who's authority are they operating on, is it Christ's or Calvin's?

 

[Reformationist]

I'm sorry if I caused your frustration in any way. My sincerest apologies.

There's nothing to apologize for. The biggest problem in that exchange was me. The other participant wasn't you anyway.

I take a great deal of comfort in knowing that the doctrines of my Church have been held and practiced all along.

How do you know this? What resources have you studied to determine if what you believe are the original teachings of Christianity? Do you ever read anything that contradicts what the Catholic church teaches and if you do what is your response to it? Do you honestly consider that it may be right and the Catholic church may be wrong?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Yes, perhaps but it also could be that they are running scared because of what they always held dear to them, their world as they know is being turned upside down.

You have to be patient with someone when they act a fool because they can be fighting the flesh and they may be freaking out because they are discovering that what they thought was truth, may not be.

You don't think giving consideration to another beliefs system is a earth shattering experience if you see there may be truth to it?

Yeah, I guess you're right. Patience may be a virtue but it's not one the Lord has given me an abundance of.

That is not true. If I were to consider anything at all about the reformed belief, how could I from you? You are not willing to be patient enough, leaving the work to be done up to the Holy Spirit to answer the questions that I pose to you about the theology. For instance, I know what the belief is, but what I do not know is why you believe that this is the correct interpretation of what the scriptures say.

Well, I am certainly not the most patient person in the world. You'll find no argument there. I'm sure that I rely on my own ability to convince someone of my views even though I regularly say that "hearing" is by the intervention of God.

If you can get me past my issues with Calvinism, that being one, then I may consider but if you are the one who is insisting I just pick up the bible and read it with consideration to how you say it interprets with out ever giving me any explanation why I should ignore the Church, the papacy, tradition, etc, then how do you expect me to?

Because I'm sinful and prideful and I make mistakes.

You said, "If you can get me past my issues with Calvinism, that being one." What do you mean, "that being one?"

So you see, I have seen first hand what “no man made Church authority” leads to.

What is "no man made Church authority?"

What about you? Have you ever looked at the Church and considered some of the bold claims that she makes? She makes some bold claims, have you ever looked into why she can make those claims?

I tried but there's too much information. Not to mention, most of it is given from the perspective that you have to accept whatever they say as true right from the get go.

Problem I have is on who's authority are they operating on, is it Christ's or Calvin's?

Authority to do what, preach the Gospel?

 

[Benedicta00]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Patience may be a virtue but it's not one the Lord has given me an abundance of.

Me neither.

Well, I am certainly not the most patient person in the world. You'll find no argument there. I'm sure that I rely on my own ability to convince someone of my views even though I regularly say that "hearing" is by the intervention of God.

Me too.

Because I'm sinful and prideful and I make mistakes.

Me too.

You said, "If you can get me past my issues with Calvinism, that being one." What do you mean, "that being one?"

Why I should disbelieve the church.

What is "no man made Church authority?"

No pope.

I tried but there's too much information. Not to mention, most of it is given from the perspective that you have to accept whatever they say as true right from the get go.

Well first thing you should do is research why the Church says it has the authority to teach you.

But just because you tried and found it to overwhelming, does that mean it is necessarily wrong?

Authority to do what, preach the Gospel?

Not so much preach but interpret the gospel and then teach it to us with such authority, where does Calvinism get it's authority from to tell us that is the way the bible reads?

I mean in order for me to go any further, I need to know the answer to this.

 

[Photini]

How do you know this? What resources have you studied to determine if what you believe are the original teachings of Christianity? Do you ever read anything that contradicts what the Catholic church teaches and if you do what is your response to it? Do you honestly consider that it may be right and the Catholic church may be wrong?

God bless

Honestly, I'm learning. I came to the Orthodox Church not because of a doctrinal issue, or historical issue, or anything like that....my reason was pretty simplistic and nothing grand. What at first ignited the love in my heart was the worship and the life of being an Orthodox Christian. After wandering around in emptiness, I was led to blessings beyond my comprehension, and I can only hope to lead a life fitting of the name I bear. At this point (I was baptised back in June) I am not delving too deep into theology and doctrine. There is a funny thing that happens though, when I am reading a book on theology, or a biography of a saint, or other writing by a Church Father (specifically the Desert Fathers), etc....when I've read something that clears the fog...it's like a bolt of electricity in my body, and I start to tear up. That moment when I pass from the falsehood of my own opinions, to Truth, is beyond words. There is a calmness, and excitement...like when you start to see a jigsaw puzzle coming together (for lack of a better way to say it?). Sorry for rambling on again....

 

[Terri]

So, like the Bereans, we should constantly measure what we are taught against the Word. Why would this be considered a good thing if we are just going to think our church doesn't make a mistake in spiritual matters?

God bless

I find a lot of joy in my life comes from searching and having God lead me into truth. I find it causes my faith to grow and I feel like I get to know My Father better as I search His Word to see if what someone says is true.

I wouldn't have it any other way!

 

[BeanMak]

Always remember there are lurkers reading your posts,and learning from each and every one of you.

 

[Reformationist]

Why I should disbelieve the church.

So you believe them before you are skeptical? Does that mean that you initially believed every church?

No pope.

So because other churches don't have Popes that makes them wrong?

Well first thing you should do is research why the Church says it has the authority to teach you.

Okay. How about some advice? Where can I find a resource for why your church has the authority to teach me?

But just because you tried and found it to overwhelming, does that mean it is necessarily wrong?

Not at all.

Not so much preach but interpret the gospel and then teach it to us with such authority, where does Calvinism get it's authority from to tell us that is the way the bible reads?

Well, I believe that he has been given the grace by God to teach the Truth. I see the Truth of the Gospel in all of his teachings. I don't think that means he has never made a mistake but I do think he teaches the Gospel as accurately as any person ever did.

God bless

 

[Received]

I have just had one of the most aggravating exhanges in all my time here on this MB and it made me wonder something.

When you participate in a thread, do you actually consider what the other person says or are you just waiting for your turn to give your opinion?

More often than not, and I am just as guilty as anyone else, it seems as if people don't even consider the possibility that they are wrong, no matter what.

Are you like that? Do you give the opinions of others any respect if they contradict your own beliefs? Do you consider what they're saying and consider the possibility that you may be wrong and it would be worthwhile to compare what they say against the Word?

In all my time as a member of this MB I've seen maaaaybe 3 people change their views. It seems as if all people want to do is show those who disagree with them how wrong they are.

I am getting so tired of the arguments...

As for partiality, you should see my bookshelf...tee hee. You'd think I was a Calvinist-Arminian-Nietzsche/Emerson-Lewis reading theologian/apologist/philosopher/free-thinker/cosmologist college boy.

I personally have nothing against my being wrong; it is the contingency of pride on behalf of the correct party that arises my anxiety. I like truth. It helps me live. But when such people are arguing -- even if their claims are scriptural or deductive --, I cannot give a hint of my respect towards them, in the moments of debate, when indeed their responses are being thrown. I look back and see how firm Calvin was in his claims regarding the 'Institutes', and I ruminate on the actions of Servetus, and the hundreds of theologians who would later come and correct his theology. Luther was a fatalist. Arminius...well, he was an Arminian. Man, being a finite spec in this infinite cosmos, possessing a mind of utter fallibility in perception of such a wide state of ideas admitted to him -- such a creation is not something I want to wager my epistemological coin on in decent hopes of winning. We are guaranteed imperfection. This is why our calling is love, and not doctrine; though certainly doctrine can be an expression of love. You cannot be wrong with the former, though you can be vulnerable; and heaven only knows the inevitable difficulties that may arise from this. Indeed, as Lewis would have it, the only place outside Heaven where you can be free of all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell. The true heroes are not those who impress their razor sharp logic upon the various problematas that come our way. Truth, we should all realize, is subjectivity. It must be lived. And it is wisdom and dignity that would dare to step beyond the realm of comprehension and into the realm of existence. Knowledge will never be complete; and we will never know when a single argument may come and reveal the otherwise trivial incompatibilities that our theology holds as true, that we may start all over again, helpless, muddled, and holding fast nothing but our faith.

Excellent thread, Reformationist.

Blessings.

 

[Reformationist]

Honestly, I'm learning. I came to the Orthodox Church not because of a doctrinal issue, or historical issue, or anything like that....my reason was pretty simplistic and nothing grand. What at first ignited the love in my heart was the worship and the life of being an Orthodox Christian. After wandering around in emptiness, I was led to blessings beyond my comprehension, and I can only hope to lead a life fitting of the name I bear. At this point (I was baptised back in June) I am not delving too deep into theology and doctrine. There is a funny thing that happens though, when I am reading a book on theology, or a biography of a saint, or other writing by a Church Father (specifically the Desert Fathers), etc....when I've read something that clears the fog...it's like a bolt of electricity in my body, and I start to tear up. That moment when I pass from the falsehood of my own opinions, to Truth, is beyond words. There is a calmness, and excitement...like when you start to see a jigsaw puzzle coming together (for lack of a better way to say it?). Sorry for rambling on again....

Nothing to be sorry about. I think that's a beautiful testimony to your faith.

God bless