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Not as a day of worship in place of Gods "seventh day Sabbath" of Gods 4th commandment. According to the scriptures, Gods' people met together everyday of the week and worshiped God *Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47. That does not make everyday of the week a holy day of rest where no work can be done now does it?
I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.
The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.
Praying to the dead is forbidden in the scriptures.
DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 says that we are not to try to communicate to the dead. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy mean to inquire or ask something of the dead. We have focused on the Hebrew word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizing the inquiring or asking part of the scripture in application to prayers (asking and inquiring) to the dead (Mary and the saints).
I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.
Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.
Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?
The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.
Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the
Isaiah 8:19 When they say to you, Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"
NEW Testament...
JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world?
Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)?
Take Care
One thing this this thread has clarified for me is that you disrespect Mary by denying her the same respect that she is given by God in the Bible.Not really. Mary is a great bible figure and blessed among all woman giving birth to Jesus though. However, Mary is just like you and me. She was a sinful human being like we all are and in need of God's salvation like we all do. Making a God of Mary breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:3. Making idols of Mary and bowing down to them breaks Gods' commandments *Exodus 20:4-5. Who should we believe and follow here; God or man? For me only God's Words are true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them Acts of the Apostles 5:29. It seems some here are making a God out of Mary which is an unbiblical false teaching. Mary is not God and Mary worship as the "Queen of Heaven or mother of God" is not biblical and has it's origins in the pagan teachings of Ishtar (see here and here linked)
Take Care
Wise choice, as it is off topic.Im not going to engage in this topic in this thread.
i was addressing anyone that says it’s impossible to blaspheme Mary. That proposition was made in a previous post by another member. So you do believe it is possible to blaspheme Mary?
Blasphemy is defined as profaning the holy
Is Mary not holy?
The Bible is God's Word (I think we all agree on that).
Within God's Word God gives to us two things: What He wants us to know, and what we need to know.
You are right about Stephen; this story is given to us not to disregard, but rather it is set before us so we too can know this hero of the faith, learn from him and the faithful example he has set for all believers; he was faithful unto death.
As such, ignoring or speaking ill of St. Stephen is blaspheming God, because God set Stephen (and all the other Saints and Martyrs) because dishonoring those whom God chose to honor is dishonoring God.
You wrote:
Acts 6:8
Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.
He too is often called blessed. Perhaps someone could make a case that he could be blasphemed. Again, they would only be words of men.
Poor Stephen, often get's forgotten with all the Christmasy stuff going on, his Feast Day, Dec 26, with the exception of the Liturgical Churches, is virtually forgotten. He got the short end of the stick this year being His day is on a Sunday; the First Sunday of Christmas and the Feast of the Holy Family take precedence. So let's not forget him.
This might be taking things too far, but the Churches that chose to disregard all of the servants of God that He chose to share in both the old and the new testament is, in my mind a blasphemous sin of omission.
If someone chooses to insult my Mother, it is not her that the insult is directed at; it is directed at me. Likewise, if we dishonor Mary, we dishonor not only Jesus Christ, but since there is one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; we are dishonoring all three persons of the Trinity.
No worries... it'll stay posted for those with the time to read and reflect upon. When you get the time, I'd still be interested in how you reconcile your beliefs with the scriptural evidence I cited, as they appear to contradict the scriptural teaching.
Yes indeed... but again you leave out the next verse...
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
This part is critical to understanding.
As I mentioned, regardless of who yo think the rock is, Jesus clearly gave St. Peter "the keys of the kingdom" (Mt 16:18-19) and He didn't invent the notion of "giving the Keys of the kingdom" right there on the spot... it is rooted in the Old testament practice of what the King of Israel Bestowed upon His prime Minister.
Just as Jehovah Set up a governmental structure for OT Israel, Jesus is setting up His Governmental Structure for NT Israel, the Church.
Read Isaiah 22:15-24 to gain the scriptural understanding of what it means for the King of Israel to bestow the keys of the kingdom to His prime minister, and you will have no more confusion on this.
I do not think you have.Ive addressed all of these in this thread already.
Sounds like your making a God of Mary here.
And that they are all knowing all present hearing all prayers on Earth to them all at the same time and able to fulfill the requests made of them... a bit like deity.
Is 8:19 " When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"
You are changing that to "they SHOULD feel free to consult the dead in behalf of the living as long as they go directly to the dead and not via some living person like a spiritist whose job it is to contact the dead"
The only service the spiritist provides is a pathway to get in contact with the dead. Your argument becomes "who needs spiritists - we are all spiritists able to get in direct contact with the dead".
It would be like saying "It is a sin to go to Joe because he can pick potatoes since you can already pick potatoes yourself". Which trivializes the concept of sin.
When Saul wants to contact the dead - in this case dead saint like Samuel - he needs to go to a witch having a familiar spirit who can conduct a seance and "bring up for me whomever I shall name....by thy familiar spirit".
It is very clear that Saul was not already in free and open communion with the dead - but thought the witch was able to do it.
=======================
The alternative to the "we are all spiritists so no need to go contact one" idea - is "NOBODY" can contact the dead and the only way spiritists are doing it is via a deceptive familiar spirit who is pretending to be the dead person.
In which case (just as in the garden of Eden with Eve) - the unsuspecting person thinks they are going to get one thing - but instead are coming into contact with the enemy of the gospel in disguise as whatever the person is seeking. And in THAT scenario it is no wonder God warns us against falling for such a ruse.
That would be a wayy more serious issue than "It is a sin to go to Joe because he can pick potatoes since you can already pick potatoes yourself"
Is 8:19 " When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should a people not consult their God? Should they consult the dead in behalf of the living?"
You are changing that to "they SHOULD feel free to consult the dead in behalf of the living as long as they go directly to the dead and not via some living person like a spiritist whose job it is to contact the dead"
The only service the spiritist provides is a pathway to get in contact with the dead. Your argument becomes "who needs spiritists - we are all spiritists able to get in direct contact with the dead".
The problem with all of this is that the saints in Heaven are alive.
As far as Samuel, some Church Fathers believed the apparition was him, some believe it was chicanery on the part of the Witch of Endor, and some believe it was a demon
No not at all. All my posts have only stated that Mary is no more important according to the scriptures than the least of Gods' saint's and she just like all of us was a sinner in need of Gods' salvation. I would view her on the same level as anyone of God's people in the bible (e.g. the Apostles, prophets etc). By the way, when I mean "saints" I mean anyone that believes and follows Gods' Word. God's saints as defined in the scriptures is simply all those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus and believe Gods' Word (see Revelation 14:12).One thing this this thread has clarified for me is that you disrespect Mary by denying her the same respect that she is given by God in the Bible.
Paul calls them "the dead" and so does Isaiah 8:19 so no matter what you may prefer to call them - the Bible reference is clear. Even the Catholic Catechism refers to it as "communion with the dead" #101
1 Thess 4:13
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.
1 Cor 15:
29 For otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them? 30 Why are we also in danger every hour? ...
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
So the "person" is referred to as "the dead" and the question addressed is "what kind of body do the dead get raised with" so a "body" is something they "have" not something they "are".
Same thing in Matt 22 where the term "the dead" is a reference to the persons them selves - specifically "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob" not to their dusty remains some place in a tomb.
So the terms used to identify them are similar in both OT and NT
Even so - it is clear that Saul did not have access to Samuel and thought a witch and a demon were the only way to make contact.
Please forgive me but I see all your claims here as unbiblical, and unsupported by scripture. God's Word in the 10 commandments tells us not to make idols and bow down to them in Exodus 20:3-7 by doing this we do not blaspheme the name of Mary but God himself according to the scriptures.
Did you read my post? Because forgive me, but your post has nothing to do with anything I posted, because I did not advocate making idols and bowing down to them. I am opposed to idolatry. I also did not refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Queen of Heaven.
There actually is a heretical cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church, headquartered in Spain and notoriously secretive, and regarded as heretical by the Roman Catholic Church and everyone else, which is not Christian according to CF.com, as they do not follow the Nicene Creed and they rewrote the Bible. They emerged in the chaos that followed Cardinal Bugnini’s imposition of the Novus Ordo Missae, and at first appeared to be a traditional Latin mass group like the SSPX, however, they elected their own Pope and soon began departing dramatically from established Roman Catholic and Christian doctrines. They revived the ancient Collyridian heresy from the fourth century by claiming that St. Mary is present along with our Lord in the Eucharist, which has the effect of making the Eucharist a sacrifice to the Mother of God, who is not God and is not adorable; only God, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is worthy of adoration and sacrificial service, which are the two components of worship.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is worthy of hyperdoulia, or extreme veneration, however, as the Mother of God.
By the way, for anyone reading this, if you wish to reply to this or another thread of mine, please reply to my specific arguments in your own words, because I write my replies by hand and do not copy and paste material from polemical websites. Also please provide a summary of any videos you link to, because I am very busy preparing for two Christmas Eve liturgies.
Yes I did read your post. As posted earlier, please forgive me but I see all your claims here as unbiblical, and unsupported by scripture.
Take Care
No just your claims in application to Mary and praying to dead saints to no scripture support in context to your original post. I already stated this a number of times now. Why are you trying to change the topic of discussion and post references?All of my claims? Really? How about where I declare that the Virgin Mary should not be worshipped? How about my reference to Moses and Elijah, who were present at the Transfiguration according to Scripture? How about where I say Jesus Christ is God?
Because I criticize both neo-Collyridians who inappropriately worship the Blessed Virgin Mary, and neo-Dicomarianites who do not venerate her, if you reject everything I claim you contradict yourself, which is frustrating to me, because I would prefer it if people would read my posts before replying to them.
No just your false claims in application to Mary and praying to dead saints from and application to no scripture support in context to your original post. I already stated this a number of times now. Why are you trying to change the topic of discussion and post references?
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