Do you blaspheme Mary?

[boughtwithaprice]

A subject came up in another thread, and it was suggested that it would be a subject for a thread of its own. I agree and wish to present it here.
Many have heard of various Marian apparitions throughout history. Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Our Lady of Fatima among others. Some argue that these are demons appearing that are meant to deceive. That may be and the Catholic Church investigates apparitions and only when approved are they deemed worthy of study, but they remain part of private revelation and are not binding on all the faithful. The ones I mentioned are approved by the Vatican, and worthy of study.
I am particularly interested in Fatima, as it is the most relevant to the world today. It is an excellent study, and I would recommend looking up the miracle of the sun that happened in 1917 at Fatima.
Additionally Fatima contains insight on Mary’s role in salvation and our response to it. We all agree that we are saved BY our Lord Jesus Christ, but Jesus did not enter the world alone. The Bible says He entered the world THROUGH Mary. God choose to enter the world through Mary. That is a biblical fact, and given that fact, how should we view her?
Our Lord spoke to Sr. Lucia at Fatima and told her that there are 5 ways which His mother is blasphemed:

tima message is our personal contribution to holiness. Editor of FROM THE HOUSETOPS Magazine
"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: ( 1) the blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception, (2) against her virginity, (3) against the Divine Maternity, refusing at the same time to accept her as the Mother of all mankind, (4) those who try publicly to implant in the children's hearts indifference, contempt, and even hatred against this Immaculate Mother, and (5) those who insult her directly in her sacred images



The Catholic Church gives biblical evidence for all five of the blasphemies and why they are grievous. I will share them from the catechism when appropriate or you can look them up. My question is what role does Mary play in your denomination’s walk with our Lord and why? Does your belief necessitate any of the blasphemies mentioned? Are you sure of your biblical beliefs?

I only ask that we remain respectful. We are taking about Our Lord’s mother. We are commanded to honor our mother and father, and we should be respectful of Jesus’ mother.
I expect disagreement, but let us speak of it in a biblical and academic sense. Does Jesus honor His mother just as we are commanded to honor ours?

 

[Torah Keeper]

I don't blaspheme her. But blasphemy is making oneself equal to God, or saying God is not real.

Mary may be the most righteous woman ever, but she still sinned. There is a verse in the Bible where she said Yeshua was crazy.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible says He entered the world THROUGH Mary. God choose to enter the world through Mary.

I don't know of any "enter the world through Mary" text in the Bible. but I do agree that in terms of biology that is how birth worked then and still to this very day. But according to the Bible the birth of Christ is not "procreation" it is "incarnation" which is a huge difference.

Our Lord spoke to Sr. Lucia at Fatima and told her that there are 5 ways which His mother is blasphemed:

tima message is our personal contribution to holiness. Editor of FROM THE HOUSETOPS Magazine
"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: ( 1) the blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception,

The Immaculate Conception is the teaching that Mary's mother gave birth to a sinless child. No Bible text says that. Rather Rom 3:23 "all have sinned". Even Mary calls Jesus her savior.

, (3) against the Divine Maternity, refusing at the same time to accept her as the Mother of all mankind

In the Bible - only Eve is positioned as "the mother of all mankind". There is no "mother of mankind" statement in the Bible regarding Mary.

My question is what role does Mary play in your denomination’s walk with our Lord and why?

She is a fellow sinner saved by grace who was privileged to be the earthly mother of Jesus.

But during the life of Christ there was one who wanted to exalt Mary due to her biological relationship to Christ -- as if that had high spiritual value and Jesus' response was very instructive for us all.

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.

This is the one and only time recorded in scripture where anyone confronted Jesus with some form of veneration or exaltation of Mary due to some fact of biology or family connection as if it had accomplished the incarnation by a human helping God. Jesus points to "salvation" as the bigger issue rather than normal biology.

And no NT writer says that Mary was addressed as "Mother of God" by someone speaking to Jesus or by one of his Apostles writing an Apostolic letter of instruction or admonition to the church. So extreme inference has to be used for that one.

Neither is Joseph referred to as "father of God" or "step father of God" or "instructor of God" or "provider for God" or any such thing.

So while we can all agree that Jesus was Himself "God with us" the second person of the Godhead - incarnate in human form - yet none of these parent-of-God instructor-of-God terms are found in the Bible because it would lead to a wrong conclusion.

 

[Freth]

I don't think it's possible to blaspheme Mary—as @BobRyan already stated.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

If Mary is in heaven right now, then I would say that she is able to be blasphemed (as the above scripture specifies), but there is no scripture that says Mary is in heaven, or that she ascended.

What does scripture say?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him [resurrection].

 

[Oompa Loompa]

God choose to enter the world through Mary. That is a biblical fact, and given that fact, how should we view her?

She should be viewed as a very blessed and respected woman. But nothing more.

 

[Albion]

Hello, "boughtwithaprice."

The background material you gave us aside, what you asked us was about how we look at the matter of Mary and blaspheming. What we believe is that the sin of blasphemy can only be committed against God, not against any of his creatures.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The Catholic Church gives biblical evidence for all five of the blasphemies and why they are grievous. I will share them from the catechism when appropriate or you can look them up.

Now is an appropriate time. Thanks for sharing the verses!

 

[concretecamper]

The same Church that proclaimed the Gospel of Matthew is Divinely inspired is the same Church that proclaimed Mary was Immaculately conceived.

The same Church that proclaimed Mary is the Mother of God is the same Church that proclaimed her perpetually virgin.

Picking and choosing what I want to believe is the very definition of the Protestant phenomenon.

The REASON we must accept the Dogmas about Mary is becasue they are Divinely revealed. Rejecting what God has revealed is a grave sin.

 

[Chris35]

Why did God choose Mary?

 

[concretecamper]

Why did God choose Mary?

your answer?

 

[topher694]

A subject came up in another thread, and it was suggested that it would be a subject for a thread of its own. I agree and wish to present it here.
Many have heard of various Marian apparitions throughout history. Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, and Our Lady of Fatima among others. Some argue that these are demons appearing that are meant to deceive. That may be and the Catholic Church investigates apparitions and only when approved are they deemed worthy of study, but they remain part of private revelation and are not binding on all the faithful. The ones I mentioned are approved by the Vatican, and worthy of study.
I am particularly interested in Fatima, as it is the most relevant to the world today. It is an excellent study, and I would recommend looking up the miracle of the sun that happened in 1917 at Fatima.
Additionally Fatima contains insight on Mary’s role in salvation and our response to it. We all agree that we are saved BY our Lord Jesus Christ, but Jesus did not enter the world alone. The Bible says He entered the world THROUGH Mary. God choose to enter the world through Mary. That is a biblical fact, and given that fact, how should we view her?
Our Lord spoke to Sr. Lucia at Fatima and told her that there are 5 ways which His mother is blasphemed:

tima message is our personal contribution to holiness. Editor of FROM THE HOUSETOPS Magazine
"My daughter, the motive is simple: there are five ways in which people offend and blaspheme against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: ( 1) the blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception, (2) against her virginity, (3) against the Divine Maternity, refusing at the same time to accept her as the Mother of all mankind, (4) those who try publicly to implant in the children's hearts indifference, contempt, and even hatred against this Immaculate Mother, and (5) those who insult her directly in her sacred images



The Catholic Church gives biblical evidence for all five of the blasphemies and why they are grievous. I will share them from the catechism when appropriate or you can look them up. My question is what role does Mary play in your denomination’s walk with our Lord and why? Does your belief necessitate any of the blasphemies mentioned? Are you sure of your biblical beliefs?

I only ask that we remain respectful. We are taking about Our Lord’s mother. We are commanded to honor our mother and father, and we should be respectful of Jesus’ mother.
I expect disagreement, but let us speak of it in a biblical and academic sense. Does Jesus honor His mother just as we are commanded to honor ours?

I've prayed for someone who was medically confirmed healed of Lupis. Obviously, Jesus healed this person through me. Should I be honored more or less than anyone else? I think not.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It is not possible to blaspheme Mary. Period. End of.

Rephrase the question and we can talk about anything else... But until then, conversation over.

 

[Michie]

Revelation 13:6 (DRB) And he opened his mouth unto blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Cf. Jude 1:8, 10.

Why are the offenses against Blessed Virgin Mary are called blasphemies instead of sin?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I don't know of any "enter the world through Mary" text in the Bible. but I do agree that in terms of biology that is how birth worked then and still to this very day. But according to the Bible the birth of Christ is not "procreation" it is "incarnation" which is a huge difference.



The Immaculate Conception is the teaching that Mary's mother gave birth to a sinless child. No Bible text says that. Rather Rom 3:23 "all have sinned". Even Mary calls Jesus her savior.




In the Bible - only Eve is positioned as "the mother of all mankind". There is no "mother of mankind" statement in the Bible regarding Mary.




She is a fellow sinner saved by grace who was privileged to be the earthly mother of Jesus.

But during the life of Christ there was one who wanted to exalt Mary above that level and Jesus' response was very instructive for us all.

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.

This is the one and only time recorded in scripture where anyone confronted Jesus with some form of veneration or exaltation of Mary as if she had accomplished the incarnation.

And no NT writer says that Mary was addressed as "Mother of God" by someone speaking to Jesus or by one of his Apostles writing an Apostolic letter of instruction or admonition to the church. So extreme inference has to be used for that one.

Neither is Joseph referred to as "father of God" or "step father of God" or "instructor of God" or "provider for God" or any such thing.

So while we can all agree that Jesus was Himself "God with us" the second person of the Godhead - incarnate in human form - yet none of these parent-of-God instructor-of-God terms are found in the Bible because it would lead to a wrong conclusion.

Thank you Bob for keeping the discussion Biblical and academic. You are correct when you say that the birth of Christ was an incarnation and not procreation. It is a very big difference, as procreation involves sexual intercourse, Our Lord Jesus’ Christ incarnation does not, as Mary was and remains a virgin.
There is no verse that says Joseph knew his wife and she bore him children. There are verses that say Jesus was part of a family, but no where does it say they were sons of Mary.
If Mary did have other sons, then she would have went home to be with them after the crucifixion and not with an unrelated disciple.
Woman behold thy son, to the disciple He said behold thy mother. We assume it’s John, but the Bible does not definitively say that. He was a type of all disciples of Christ, behold thy mother. Simple logic dictates the Church is the Body of Christ, Mary is the mother of the Body of Christ, therefore Mary is the mother of the Church. Genesis 3:14-15 predicts God’s plan to bring the redeemer through Mary

14. And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15. I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shalt crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

The power to crush the serpent’s head no doubt comes from the Son of God, but the Bible states that the enmity is between the woman and the serpent. It is through Mary by the power of Jesus Christ that the serpents head is crushed.

Luke 11:27-28 is an interesting quote. Your translation would make it seem that our Lord contradicts honoring His mother, but a reading of the Greek text shows that Our Lord did not say “On the contrary”. The correct translation is Yea rather, or Yes and, not contradiction but emphasis. Mary herself glorifies the Lord in the Magnificat of Luke 1:46-55. My soul doth magnify the Lord: and my spirit hath rejoiced in God, my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his hand maid, for behold from henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done great things to me and holy is his name.
Consider a well and the danger of falling in. There are two ways to be saved from that. One falls in and another lets down a ladder or a rope to climb out, or one is about to fall and another catches them before they fall into the well. Both refer to the other person as their savior, as it was not by their own power by which they were saved.
Mary was prevented from falling by the grace of God, not her innate nature. Gabriel calls her Full of Grace. Our honor of her is a tribute to God’s grace. Do we say that the full measure of the grace of God is insufficient to keep one from sin? If one does say that, how is God glorified by that statement?
As to her virginity we read in Luke 1 that she asks Gabriel, How can these things be as I know not man? She was betrothed to Joseph at that time. If she intended to consummate her marriage to Joseph and bear him children, would she not rejoice and say, this is great news, Joseph and I are to bear a king and he will be the son of God? No her words to the Angel show that she had made a vow of virginity and never had any intention of sexual relations. If she has God’s Son and has intercourse with another man, would that not be adultery as her children have two fathers?
God forbid that He would allow any man to touch his spotless virgin.

 

[plain jayne]

The same Church that proclaimed the Gospel of Matthew is Divinely inspired is the same Church that proclaimed Mary was Immaculately conceived.

The same Church that proclaimed Mary is the Mother of God is the same Church that proclaimed her perpetually virgin.

Picking and choosing what I want to believe is the very definition of the Protestant phenomenon.

The REASON we must accept the Dogmas about Mary is becasue they are Divinely revealed. Rejecting what God has revealed is a grave sin.

Churches, no matter the denomination, can make grievous mistakes in their doctrines.

How can Mary be the Mother of God when she would have to be the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit to do so? She would have to be in existence BEFORE God to be the mother OF God.

The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. ONE God in a triune person.

Mary is not the mother of all three, but the earthly mother of Christ in earthly form.

To claim she is the mother of "God" - by definition of God - makes her the mother of the Father also. Ergo, who would be the father of the Father?

It's very confusing and an incorrect doctrine to call Mary the mother of "God".

 

[plain jayne]

As to her virginity we read in Luke 1 that she asks Gabriel, How can these things be as I know not man? She was betrothed to Joseph at that time. If she intended to consummate her marriage to Joseph and bear him children, would she not rejoice and say, this is great news, Joseph and I are to bear a king and he will be the son of God? No her words to the Angel show that she had made a vow of virginity and never had any intention of sexual relations. If she has God’s Son and has intercourse with another man, would that not be adultery as her children have two fathers?
God forbid that He would allow any man to touch his spotless virgin.

This is such a stretch. It cannot fit with scripture.

The Bible says clearly that she and Joseph had not "come together". They were not living together yet, ergo - no sex.

Her response to the angel was NOT - How shall this be, I am never going to "know" a man. Future tense.

Her response was - How shall this be. I have NOT known a man." KNOWN - past tense. She never once intimated that she wasn't going to have sex with her husband.

And if she PLANNED on being celibate forever, why marry?

Here's my primary question that I have never gotten an answer to over the years.

WHY is it important that Mary be sinless and a perpetual virgin. It's not in the Bible and I don't understand it's importance.

She herself said she was just a humble maidservant of God - NOT his wife or mother. She called God her "Savior". She needed to be saved.

 

[concretecamper]

Churches, no matter the denomination, can make grievous mistakes in their doctrines.

agreed, but not the Church that CHRIST established. Maybe the Church Henry VIII started, or Pastor Billy Bob started, but not His Church. Christ gave a guarantee to us "he that hears you, hears Me"

How can Mary be the Mother of God when she would have to be the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit to do so? She would have to be in existence BEFORE God to be the mother OF God.

Jesus is fully God, and Mary is His mother

The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. ONE God in a triune person.

no, 3 persons, 1 God. To say otherwise is heresy

Mary is not the mother of all three, but the earthly mother of Christ in earthly form.

another heresy. Nestorious taught such nonsense.

To claim she is the mother of "God" - by definition of God - makes her the mother of the Father also. Ergo, who would be the father of the Father?

no such thing.

It's very confusing and an incorrect doctrine to call Mary the mother of "God".

not to call her the Mother of God is a recent and novel idea, borne out of Sola Scriptura.

 

[concretecamper]

And if she PLANNED on being celibate forever, why marry?

a typical response assigning modern day thinking to ancient Jewish customs.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you Bob for keeping the discussion Biblical and academic. You are correct when you say that the birth of Christ was an incarnation and not procreation. It is a very big difference, as procreation involves sexual intercourse, Our Lord Jesus’ Christ incarnation does not, as Mary was and remains a virgin.
There is no verse that says Joseph knew his wife and she bore him children. There are verses that say Jesus was part of a family, but no where does it say they were sons of Mary.

Agreed.

We know Jesus had "brothers and sisters" according to those who knew him in Nazareth but we are not told that they were children of Mary and the fact that Jesus gave the Apostle John charge of Mary seems like an unlikely act if Mary herself had other sons who could provide for her in Jesus' absence.

 

[BobRyan]

. Simple logic dictates the Church is the Body of Christ,

Agreed - but Mary is a member of the church and did not give birth to herself.


So in context of "the church" and "the body of Christ", no Bible text says "Mary is the mother of the Body of Christ"

the Bible states that the enmity is between the woman and the serpent which appears to be a reference to the bride of Christ - (the church) since all humanity has as it's enemy "the devil" going about as a roaring lion - but most specifically the church - of which Mary is a member. Biologically speaking -- there is no sense in which men are less at risk from our enemy the devil then are women.

Luke 11:27-28 is an interesting quote. Your translation would make it seem that our Lord contradicts honoring His mother

Not so. "Honor thy father and mother" was a command repeated by Christ and NT writers but never meant calling parents "The mother of God" in fact in some cases we have "call no man father" which is not a reference to biology but to spiritual father. He honored His father and mother but would not go with the special significance one of his hearers was "reaching" for.

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it. (NASB)

"28 And he said, `Yea rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping [it]!' (YLT)
"28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (KJV)
"28 But he replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it!”" (NET)
"28 Jesus replied, “Blessed rather, are those who hear the word of God and obey it!” (NCB) New Catholic Bible

"28 But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it." (Douay 1899)

μενοῦν menoun
yea rather (1x), nay but (1x)

This is the one and only time recorded in scripture where anyone confronted Jesus with some form of veneration or exaltation of Mary as if she had accomplished the incarnation.

And to be fair - anyone in the Catholic church today repeating the words "Blessed is the womb that carried Jesus, and the breasts at which Jesus nursed!” -- would absolutely not be confronted with any form of "On the Contrary" statement by a fellow Christian in the Catholic Church - more like "a hearty amen".

, but a reading of the Greek text shows that Our Lord did not say “On the contrary”. The correct translation is "Yea rather"

"on the contrary" and the "RATHER" statement look to be the same. Neither of them look like "Very True and in addition" -- The "Rather" term replaces the statement made with something else.

Mary herself glorifies the Lord in the Magnificat of Luke 1:46-55. My soul doth magnify the Lord: and my spirit hath rejoiced in God, my Saviour. "

That puts Mary on level with sinful fallen humanity - in need of Salvation and finding in Christ - the Saviour.

"for behold from henceforth all generations will call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done great things to me and holy is his name."

We can agree that she was blessed to serve God in that way but Christ goes out of his way to indicate that his listener was taking the matter way too far.

Mary was prevented from falling by the grace of God, not her innate nature. Gabriel calls her Full of Grace.

Stephen was also stated to be "full of grace". We don't read doctrine into the text making Stephen born sinless , or living a sinless life. or his mother giving birth to a sinless son.

Acts 6: 8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

As to her virginity we read in Luke 1 that she asks Gabriel, How can these things be as I know not man? She was betrothed to Joseph at that time. If she intended to consummate her marriage to Joseph and bear him children, would she not rejoice and say, this is great news, Joseph and I are to bear a king and he will be the son of God?

I don't know of anyone who argues that Mary was not a virgin up until the birth of Christ.

Matt 1:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. ...: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

If the text meant to say "kept her a virgin for the rest of his life" or "for life" or without any "until" it would leave more of a door for what you are proposing.