Do you believe things that are directly contradicted by at least one passage in scripture?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says

James 2:

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

 

[Clare73]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says

James 2:​

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

I believe that Scripture does not contradict itself and where it appears to do so, it is not being understood correctly, and should be interpreted in agreement with all Scripture.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe that Scripture does not contradict itself and where it appears to do so, it is not being understood correctly, and should be interpreted in agreement with all Scripture.

Yet the doctrines I mentioned do directly contradict what the passages I quoted say. Think about it. It is worth the time you devote to thinking about it.

 

[Soyeong]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says

James 2:​

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience to God. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage. In Romans 3:27-31, we are justified by faith alone apart from works of the law, however, the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of the law, but rather the same faith by which we are justified also expressed as being a doer of the law.

So we can be justified by faith alone in the sense that that there are no works that we can do to earn our justification, but our faith is never alone in the same that the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God, which is why Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith.

When people say that we are justified by faith and works, the problem is that others will commonly respond with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage as the result of first having done works even though the people who say that we are justified by faith and works didn't say anything about the works being done to earn any part of our justification. Likewise, people will commonly respond by saying that by adding works we are saying that what Christ did on the cross is insufficient when we just need to have faith alone. However, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works is the way to have faith in what Jesus accomplished through the cross, not adding our own works on top of his.

 

[Clare73]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

I believe that Scripture does not contradict itself and where it appears to do so, it is not being understood correctly, and should be interpreted in agreement with all Scripture. To wit:

The text of 1 Pe 3:20-21 reads: ". . .the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark being prepared in which a few, this is eight souls, were quite saved through water. Which figure also now saves us, that is baptism, not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but an answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

When you consider the grammatical construction of Peter's context above in Noah and the ark,
baptism is a figure/symbol of the water/flood which saved eight people in the ark, where the
flood is a figure of baptism and baptism is a figure of salvation, in that in both instances,

the water that spoke of judgment (in the flood, the death of the wicked; in baptism, the death of Christ and the believer, Ro 6:2-4)
is the water that saves.

The flood symbolized baptism which symbolizes Christ's death and resurrection which saves.

"Also now saves us," in the context of the rest of the NT, means saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death and resurrection (Ro 6:2-4).
This using of the symbol to refer to the reality is, as I understand it, what the Catholic church calls "sacramental union."

"answer of a good conscience toward God" is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that what baptism symbolizes in Ro 6:2-4 will become a reality in his life; i.e., that as Christ died for sin, so the believer will die to sin.

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says.​

James 2:24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

There are two meanings of the word "justify" (dikaioo):
1) pronounced righteous (justified) apart from works - Abraham was justified by his faith, apart from works (Ro 3:28, 4:1-3),
2) proved to be true - e.g., her fear of him was justified (proved to be true) by his killing her dog.
Abraham's faith was justified (proved to be true) by his sacrifice (Jas 2:24).
There is no contradiction between Ro 3:28, 4:1-3 and Jas 2:24.

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

Not when Scripture is correctly understood.

 

[BobRyan]

First let me say -- WELL DONE! - I love this kind of thread. You are making a very direct logical point with an appeal to scripture as the authority for all sides to consider. nice!!

This is a breath of fresh air!

This is exactly the kind of thread I would post if I were you -- in fact I already post this sort of "look at what the Bible says in this case and compare to your current POV" thread.

So .. nice work!

 

[BobRyan]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

1 Peter 3: says
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 3 is clear that it is not talking about sacramental waters but rather "the appeal to God for a good (clean) conscience).

Almost everyone agrees with Peter that such an appeal by the sinner is the moment of being born again - saved, justified.

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone"

Rom 3:
27 Where then is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

Rom 3 is talking about justification past - just as we see in Rom 5:1 "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God"

and then look at what this passage says

James 2:​

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

James 2 and Romans 3 are speaking about Two different kinds of Justification.

But James 2 and Romans 2 speak of the same justification --
Rom 2:13 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God -but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified...
Rom 2:16 on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of men"

That is future justification - in the corporate setting of the Dan 7 -- Investigative judgment (pre-advent investigative judgment).

The Rom 2:4-16 text describe the basis on which that sort of justification happens in the courtroom of Dan 7:9-10

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

Not when I consider the context as noted above. But as I said before -- I strongly agree with your approach here.

 

[Dan Perez]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says

James 2:​

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

Please see exactly what cerse 21 says in 1 Peter 3:21 .

The Greek word BAPTISM / BAPTISO is NOT the Greek word for BAPTISM !!

It is the Greek word BAPTISMA and it means that this Greek word , is speaking about the BAPTISMA / GIVER called the HOLY SPIRIT and Eph 4:5 says that there is only one BAPTISMA , the HOLY SPIRIT .

This Greek word BAPTISMA is used 22 times , from MATTHEW -----------1 Peter 3:21 .

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Greek word BAPTISIM / BAPTISO is NOT the Greek word for BAPTISM !!

It's such a wonder that your lexicon says such things. Imagine that, "baptiso" is not the word for baptism. But the word in Greek in 1Peter 3:21 is βάπτισμα which is Baptisma and it really is the word for baptism.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Here are all the verses the noun form of the Greek word for baptism is used in the NT:

Matt 3:7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matt 20:22But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” They said to Him, “We are able.”
Matt 20:23So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.”
Matt 21:25The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Mark 1:4John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mark 10:38But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
Mark 10:39They said to Him, “We are able.” So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized;
Mark 11:30The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me.”
Luke 3:3And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,
Luke 7:29And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.
Luke 12:50But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!
Luke 20:4The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?”
Acts 1:22beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Acts 10:37that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
Acts 13:24after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Acts 18:25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Acts 19:3And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:4Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
Rom 6:4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Eph 4:5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Col 2:12buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
1 Pet 3:21There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Here are three interesting verses where the verb form of the Greek word for baptize is used:

• Matt 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
• Mark 1:8I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 3:16John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And here is one passage where the Greek says Baptism saves. ἀπειθήσασί ποτε, ὅτε ἀπεξεδέχετο ἡ τοῦ Θεοῦ μακροθυμία ἐν ἡμέραις Νῶε, κατασκευαζομένης κιβωτοῦ, εἰς ἣν ὀλίγαι, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ὀκτὼ ψυχαί, διεσώθησαν δι᾿ ὕδατος. ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σώζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου, ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς Θεόν, δι᾿ ἀναστάσεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

 

[Dan Perez]

It's such a wonder that your lexicon says such things. Imagine that, "baptiso" is not the word for baptism. But the word in Greek in 1Peter 3:21 is βάπτισμα which is Baptisma and it really is the word for baptism.

Here is where the Greek word BAPTISMA is found 22 times .

#! Matt 3:7
#2 Matt 20:22
#3 Matt 20:23
#3 Matt 21:25
#4 Mark 1:4
#5 10:38
#6Mark 10:39
#7 11:30
#8 Luke 7:29
#9 12:50
#10 Luke 20:4 , Acts 1:22 , Acts 10:37 , Acts 13:24 , Acts 18:25 , Acts 19:3 , Acts 19:4 , Eph 4:5 , Col 2:12 and 1 Peter 3:21 .

Just look at VINE'S or in STRONG'S DICTIONARY G908 and see .

And 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads baptism is really the Greek word BAPTISMA and it means a BAPTIZER .

dan p

dan p

 

[RileyG]

No. You need to remember the context and who and why it was written.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

And 1 Peter 3:21 where it reads baptism is really the Greek word BAPTISMA and it means a BAPTIZER .

Only if you ignore your lexicon and substitute an eccentric definition of your own.

βάπτισμα
baptisma
bap'-tis-mah
From G907; baptism (technically or figuratively): - baptism.

 

[Jamdoc]

a better question: if the bible says one thing over and over and over and then has a single verse where if you take it out of context in a vacuum, particularly cutting out a particular clause of the verse and focusing on it in a vacuum so it SEEMS to say something different than the rest of the bible.. do you build a doctrine around that one clause of one verse?

Example: Catholics take one verse from Matthew 16 to establish Peter as the pope and who the church is built on., ignoring the context where later just a few verses further along Jesus calls Peter Satan., it kinda doesn't fit with the doctrine involving Peter in the Catholic church. Just to point out an example, what if I were to take Matthew 16:23 out of context and develop a doctrine declaring that Peter is Satan and an offense to Jesus?
I would have scripture to back up my doctrine, but yo (and honestly I) would see that doctrine as absurd right?
The overwhelming biblical teachings on Peter was that he was a deeply flawed man that loved Jesus, messed up bad, but repented and got redeemed, and then worked mightily for God.
1 verse seems to establish him as the leader of the church and in fact the foundation the foundation the Church is built on
and 1 verse declares he's Satan and an offense to Jesus (and both from the same chapter of the same book)

Maybe it's best to go with the overwhelming biblical support rather than a stray verse?

 

[joeLightening]

Consider the idea that "baptism does not save" and then look at what these verses says
1Peter 3:

"20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’."​

and think about this belief "We are saved by faith alone" and then look at what this passage says

James 2:​

"24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone?"​

Take some time to think about it. Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

What is faith? Can faith exist without obedience? No it can not. Some think faith is just a thought of the imagination. Some always speak about faith in the past tense. They say I was saved. When they say I live by faith, they are saying I think I'm still saved. What they call faith is their own assessment of their current spiritual condition. For them to express doubt about it, would make them look bad before others. Yet, they do have doubts or they simply don't understand it. I am being saved. The Lord will continue and complete the working of his salvation. We who are being saved are looking forward to the completion when we shall appear in his likeness.

 

[Dan Perez]

Only if you ignore your lexicon and substitute an eccentric definition of your own.

βάπτισμα
baptisma
bap'-tis-mah
From G907; baptism (technically or figuratively): - baptism.

The Greek word BAPTISMA is used 22 times from Matthew , though 1 Peter 3:21 and is UNDENIABLE and does not mean WATER BAPTISM .
So , in 1 Cor 10:2 , and all were BAPTIZED / BAPTISO unto to Moses , in the CLOUD , and in the SEA , and can any know how that happened ?

dan p

 

[Aaron112]

Your own most cherished beliefs are contradicted by at least one passage of scripture.

Thus if someone wants to follow Jesus, to be His disciple,
they must , as Jesus Says Himself,
give up everything to follow Him. even as you say 'cherished' beliefs , eh?

 

[Aaron112]

and can any know how that happened ?

Yes.

As the Creator, our Father in heaven, Said.
As is Written in His Word.
As He Is Pleased to Reveal, in His Good Pleasure.