Do you believe the OT?

[R3quiem]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

Examples:

Deuteronomy 3:3-7
So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Numbers 31:15-17
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Isaiah 13:6-18
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.
See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
each will return to his own people,
each will flee to his native land.
Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Proverbs 1:24-28
But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
"Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.


Do you believe that these things really were ordered or inspired by God?

 

[salida]

Yes, I believe ALL the Bible because its the most true book in the world. So, lets investigate on why these killings occurred and read it in the context of the paragraphs. God isn't out there killing for fun and for no logical reason.

Reasons God has destroyed mostly in the OT part of the Bible.

1) To protect Israel from the surrounding pagan nations and keep them from being corrupt. These pagans were offering infant sacrafices; having sex with animals and the list gets worse. Yes, he killed the infants because in His infinite wisdom knew they would grow up to be like their pagan parents. The pagan torch would have marched on. Thus, God gave Israel their land. (This occurred in Deuteronomy, Numbers, 2 Kings- (mocking a prophet of God-judgement).

Isaiah-is a prophetic book - the Judgement of God against mankinds sin as they have outright rebelled against God. This will occur in Revelation.

Hosea 13:16- God was judging Israel for their rebellion.

2) Judgement for disobeying God.
---------------------------------------------------


No, God isn't being cruel. God IS Love and at the same time God IS Holy and can't tolerate sin. He can't compromise with it - its like mixing oil and water. When man chooses to ignore this - this defaults to disaster and consequences in the Old Testament and New Testament.

In human reasoning - its like a parent tells their child not to touch a hot stove but they continue to do it. Well, it defaults to the child being burnt. Is this the parents fault - No its not. The parent was trying to protect the child but the child didn't listen.(I'm using a human parallel here from physical pain). God does this to save man from spiritual pain and suffering as there are divine laws.

 

[salida]

Why I believe the Bible: I do for spiritual reasons first and intellectual second.

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.


Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[ebia]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God?

Yes.

Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God?

If I can rephrase taht as "do you believe they are primarily historically accurate descriptions of events without theological 'spin'", then no. They are all written first and formost to make certain theological points.

 

[Adstar]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

Examples:

Deuteronomy 3:3-7
So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Numbers 31:15-17
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Isaiah 13:6-18
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.
See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
each will return to his own people,
each will flee to his native land.
Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Proverbs 1:24-28
But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
"Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.


Do you believe that these things really were ordered or inspired by God?

Some of these are Prophecies. That is they reveal a future event not yet fulfilled. and in one it does not reveal the identity of those who will carry out the killings

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Isaiah 13:6-18
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;......................................... Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.

[FONT=&quot]These two examples are both from Prophets. the Day of the Lord is the time just before the return of the Messiah Jesus, a time when the World will be full of distress and wars where the love of many will grow cold and such things as revealed above will happen.

As for the other scriptures dealing with the destruction of the Canaanite peoples by the Israelites following the commands of God. Yes i believe they are true and I believe God ordered them done. God chose to use the Jews as an implement of His wrath against the peoples of Canaan. His will Be done.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

 

[WarEagle]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God?

Absolutely.

Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

the way you phrase it makes the question difficult to answer.

First of all, many of the things you list aren't actions of God. Some are prophecies about what will happen and some are simply historical accounts.

It's also clear that you've worded your question to put the worst possible construct on it in order to make God out to be a villain.

Does God order genocide? In a sense, yes.

But there are some key differences between what God has commanded and the modern day genocidal leaders you're trying to tie Him to.

The first is that God is never capricious. That is, He never authorizes killing for killing's sake.

There are three reasons the Bible tells us God orders killing:

1. To protect His children.

2 .To punish sin (and notice that He always pleads with sinners to repent so that they will not have to face punishment)

3. To protect His word. For example, in the case of Elisha that you quoted out of context, had you bothered to read the entire passage, you would have seen that God did not kill the men because they called Elisha "bald head", but because they mocked His word and tried to stone His prophet.

 

[TexasSky]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

Examples:

Deuteronomy 3:3-7
So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Numbers 31:15-17
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Isaiah 13:6-18
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.
See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
each will return to his own people,
each will flee to his native land.
Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Proverbs 1:24-28
But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
"Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.


Do you believe that these things really were ordered or inspired by God?

Others have answered this question well.

I wanted add just a few things.

It is very rare to find any reference in the bible to God telling man to destroy every man, woman and child. In the scriptures you quoted, it refers to Amorites.

The Amorites had laws that made it legal to hunt down and murder anyone who did not worship as they worshipped. They were also a nation that tried to control the entire region of the world, using constant warfare. Time after time after time they would engage in a war, lose a war, and a few years later the descendants who lived would attack again. They, like many other socities in that region, passed down hatred and feuds and the idea of vengence. The entire society was based, not just on "not following Jehovah," but on the teaching that it was the DUTY of every man, woman and child, to murder anyone who DID follow Jehovah. They would reward people for killing God's chosen.

There are similiarities to the Cannanites. They would attack Jewish caravans, wipe out settlements, try to destroy entire cities. They would be fought off, and then the children, as soon as they were old enough, would take up the blood lust of the parents. Men, women AND children would kill, time and time and time again.

And the thing is, both of these groups just kept coming back with war. Time and time and time again. They'd fight, and win or lose, whoever survived would eventually start hunting and killing the Jews again. Not just "parents" or "soldiers", but every member of their societies.

If you are from a civilized country, it is very difficult to understand that. It is very difficult to wrap your mind around the idea that even children can be dangerous, hate filled monsters.

Even today, when we see this, we gasp, and think, "how terrible," but we don't really GRASP it. There are places in the world today where young children are taught, in their schools, that it is their duty to strap bombs to their bodies and blow up themselves and anyone else they can. They are taught that it is pleasing to the parents, to the idols they worship, and to their government that murdering is a good thing. During Vietnam, soldiers were often afraid to hug or befriend small children, because those small children might be there to murder them.

Also, consider, that we live in a modern world. If "only" the soldiers die in our world, the surviving spouses will be able to provide food, protection from the elements, protections from enemies.

In that day and age, generally speaking, if the males died, the children and parents slowly starved to death.

Today, if we conquered a country, and ended up with a lot of women and children to support, we have the food, the water, the resources to provide for them.

Back then it was a struggle to find food for your own, and taking in all the orphans of the enemy to feed and provide for might very well mean starving your own people.

You cannot read the bible, or any other history book, without considering the whole picture.

I tend to think that the scriptures ou quoted were from the context of, "enough is enough," however, there could be strong cases made for those scriptures being a kind of mercy we do not really grasp because we don't really grasp the idea that without the males, in that day and age, the females and children were going to die slow and horrid deaths.

In regards to the law about the woman grabbing the male. In that society, the only reason a woman would grab the gentiles of a man fighting her husband, would be to try to murder the man. So, while you are reading it as, "they will remove her arm just for touching him sexually," what it MEANS is, "EVEN though she tried to kill him, she didn't, so you can't stone her. You can punish her."

In the verse in numbers. Read it carefully. A plague was being passed from the women to the men. Virgins were spared because virgins were not passing along the sexually transmitted disease that was destroying. This is another case where you need to step back and consider "then" vs "now." Syphillis was VERY common throughout MOST of history. In its later stages it literally eats at the brain, often causing insanity, and often causing violent insanity. It also causes major birth defects if a mother has the disease. One of the only cures for that, even today, is penicillin. Penicillin didn't exist in biblical times. Look at what AIDS did to South Africa. It was NOT uncommon for societies to destroy plague carriers in order to protect the uninfected of the society.

In the case of Elisha. This was the prophet of God. Apparently there were over 42 following him, mocking him, jeering at him. That constitutes a mob. Beyond that, you are forgetting the difference in "God" perspective and "Human" perspective.

God cares about the eternal soul of man most of all. To God, death is, in a sense, just another transition in life like birth. You are born, and become a baby. You grow and become an adult. You die, and become free of the body of clay but YOU live on. Cutting out the "diseased" that are "leading others to eternal damnation" is, I assume, in the eyes of God, not unlike cutting a cancer out of diseased flesh in the human body is to a surgeon.

 

[Stinker]

As far as the wife of the man that is losing the fight, it would have been better if she hit the other man over the head with a clay pot or something. Even if it killed him, she might have fared better by the religious authorities.

 

[Aetius]

"Does God order genocide? In a sense, yes."

This is so hard for me to wrap my head around.

 

[Key]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

.........

Do you believe that these things really were ordered or inspired by God?

Uhh Yah...

Do you have any other questions?

God Bless

Key

 

[MorkandMindy]

Post deleted by self

Reason: done it again, posted in Questions by non Christians; these may only be responded to by Nicene Christians

Third time I've done that in 858 posts, maybe I shouldn't have several windows open at once...

 

[seashale76]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

First, here is a decent article titled, The Old Testament in the New Testament Church: http://fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/old_new_testament_e.htm

Now, my own post response (keeping in mind that my views are 100% influenced by my Church and I've gleaned my answers from Orthodox sources that I'm ashamed to say that I'm way too lazy to track down at the moment):

I've no idea whether or not my arguments are anything acceptable to you. Parse them and accept it or not. In a nutshell, it is all about the incarnation. Christianity hinges on the incarnation.

Christ’s suffering death on the cross and resurrection made it possible for us to now have a way through suffering and a way to reconcile ourselves to God (abolishing sin) through his human nature. Christ’s ultimate act of suffering love gives us His saving companionship and grace. Christ even descended into hades, which opens up quite a bit of speculation as to what sort of mercy the inhabitants there were granted. Only God knows. This very act means that the righteous dead (even those who weren’t Israelites) were given life. Death was defeated. From our point of view they were retroactively granted salvation, but as God is out of time and space, it is just that, our perception. (It is a pious opinion among Orthodox Christians that even had Adam and Eve not sinned and introduced death into the world, then Christ would still have come. The main reason being that without the physical incarnation, there is no way that we could know the unknowable God, commune with Him, or even attain theosis.)

So, we are dying from the moment of birth, which is the consequence of sin that we all inherit. (This in no way means that we inherit Adam’s sin, just the consequence of it.) The choice is ours to accept the love of God. Being separated from God through sin, the love of God is like a burning fire. God’s very presence is the torturous fire of hell to the unbeliever as it also the light of heaven to the believer.

Now you're probably thinking, yeah, but what about other religions, or how do we know if God exists or not? Other religions have a little truth in them I believe. However, only Christianity retains the fullness of the truth. Without the incarnation we'd be just like the others.

Take Judaism for example. It is necessary to the Christian belief that the current Jews didn't keep up, as it were. It is important to understand that the entire Old Testament prefigures Christ. Everything that occurred was in preparation for our salvation.

We believe that the Old Testament can only be understood in a New Testament way, in the light of the Church. The Old Testament contains the preparation for the coming of Christ, promises, prophecies, and types or antitypes of Christ. The events of the OT being the shadow and the events of the NT being the truth and fulfillment. A big example of this is Isaac being offered as a sacrifice (that was rejected) points directly to Christ's death on the Cross.

As an example, when you look at Moses' account of the fall into sin, it is an interesting parallel to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son left and fell into grief and suffering. However, it also gives us hope that we can always return. The incarnation of Christ made this possible.

Here are just a few other examples:

Adam and Christ
Eve and the Mother of God
Earthly paradise and Heavenly paradise
Sin through Woman and Salvation through the Virgin
Eating the fruit bringing death and partaking of the Holy Gifts bringing life
The forbidden tree and the saving Cross
The serpent/deceiver and Gabriel preaching good tidings
Woman told she will bring forth children in sorrow and the women at the tomb are told to Rejoice
Salvation from the flood in the ark and salvation in the Church
The three strangers with Abraham and the Holy Trinity
Jacob's ladder and the Mother of God (the ladder of the Son of God's descent to earth)
The sale of Joseph and Christ's betrayal
Slavery in Egypt and the spiritual slavery of man
Crossing the Red Sea and Holy Baptism
The burning/unconsumed bush and the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos
The Sabbath and the day of Resurrection
Circumcision and Baptism
Manna and the Lord's Supper
The Law of Moses and the Law of the Gospel
Sinai and the Sermon on the Mount
The tabernacle and the NT Church
The Ark of the Covenant and the Theotokos
The serpent on the staff and Christ nailed to the Cross
Aaron's rod and our rebirth in Christ

However, not one person can impart faith to God to you. I wish you all the best.

I'll leave you with a few quotes that seem pertinent to the topic at hand.


Before anything else one must believe in God, "that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6). -St Seraphim of Sarov - Spiritual Instructions


"For behold, all our lofty doctrines, how destitute they are of reasonings, and dependent on faith alone. God is not anywhere, and is everywhere. What has less reason than this (What idea makes less logical sense)? He was not made, He did not make Himself, He never began to be. What reasoning will receive this if there is no faith?" -St. John the Chrysostom



Abraham passed through all the reasoning that is possible to human nature about the divine attributes, and after he had purified his mind of all such concepts, he took hold of a faith that was unmixed and pure of any concept, and he fashioned for himself this token of knowledge of God that is completely clear and free of error, namely the belief that God completely transcends any knowable symbol. And so, after this ecstasy which came upon him as a result of these lofty visions, Abraham returned one more to his human frailty: `I am,' he admits (Gen. 18:27), `dust and ashes,' mute, inert, incapable of explaining rationally the Godhead that my mind has seen. -St. Gregory of Nyssa, From Glory to Glory


But some one will say, If the Divine substance is incomprehensible, why then do you discourse on these things? So then, because I cannot drink up all the river, an I not even to take in moderation what is expedient for me? Because with eyes so constituted as mine I cannot take in all the sun, am I not even to look upon him enough to satisfy my wants? Or again, because I have entered into a great garden, and cannot eat all the supply of fruits, would you have me go away altogether hungry? I praise and glorify Him Who made us; for it is a divine command which says, 'Let every breath praise the Lord' (Ps. 150:6). I am attempting now to glorify the Lord, but not to describe Him, knowing nevertheless that I shall fall short of glorifying Him worthily, yet deeming it a work of piety even to attempt it at all. -St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures: Lecture 6 no. 5)



God is comprehensible in our contemplation of His attributes [or divine energies], but God is incomprehensible in our contemplation of His divine essence." -St. Maximus the Confessor(Cent. On Charity, IV, 7, trans. Pegon, Sources Chretiennes 9, p.153)


Belief is a matter of dying for Christ and His commandments. It is believing that such a death is life-giving. It is to count poverty as riches, and to consider the lowest humiliation as true honor and nobility. Faith is believing that when one has nothing, one has everything. More than this, it is to possess the incomprehensible riches of the knowledge of Christ and to look upon all visible things as but clay and smoke. St. Symeon the New Theologian, The Practical and Theological Chapters



The problem of our life is union with God, and sin completely prevents this; therefore flee from sin as from a terrible enemy, as from the destroyer of the soul, because to be without God is death and not life. Let us therefore understand our destination; let us always remember that our common Master calls us to union with Himself. -St. John of Kronstadt (My Life in Christ, Part 1; Holy Trinity Monastery pg. 20)



If you wish to save your soul and win eternal life, arise from your lethargy, make the sign of the Cross and say: In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Faith comes not through pondering but through action. Not words and speculation but experience teaches us what God is. To let in fresh air we have to open a window; to get tanned we must go out into the sunshine. Achieving faith is no different; we never reach a goal by just sitting in comfort and waiting, say the Holy Fathers. Let the Prodigal Son be our example. He "arose and came" (Luke 15:20). -Tito Colliander The Way of the Ascetics.

 

[BlackBerry]

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[R3quiem]

Thanks for the responses so far. I hope to get some more. I realize that some of the passages I've pointed out are prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled- I included them because they represent the mentality of the deity I am questioning about. Also, by including them, it shows that not all of these actions are in the past- that they are supposedly going to happen in the future as well.

Uhh Yah...

Do you have any other questions?

God Bless

Key

Sure, my next question would be "Are you ok with all of it?" Does genocide sit well with you, even if it is by the side you are on?

 

[Key]

Uhh Yah...

Do you have any other questions?

God Bless

Key

Sure, my next question would be "Are you ok with all of it?" Does genocide sit well with you, even if it is by the side you are on?

You ask this question like there is some meaning behind it.. and for the life of me.. I can't figure out what it is...

Maybe you can help me a bit.. like.. how you figure that kinda question should apply to me...

God Bless

Key

 

[HypnoToad]

Sure, my next question would be "Are you ok with all of it?" Does genocide sit well with you, even if it is by the side you are on?

"Ok" in the sense that I understand the justice of it. We don't "delight" in the fact that others had to die.

For one, they were not innocent victims - these are tribes that made it their goal to exterminate the Israelites.

Two, as already pointed out, there wasn't much other option. With most of their men killed in battle, the rest of the tribe faced a slow death by no longer being able to support themselves, and the Israelites had no capability of supporting the survivors themselves. Which is more merciful - killing them quickly by the sword, or leaving them to slowly die in the elements?

Third, God is sovereign over all life and has the authority to say when it is to end.

 

[Adstar]

Thanks for the responses so far. I hope to get some more. I realize that some of the passages I've pointed out are prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled- I included them because they represent the mentality of the deity I am questioning about. Also, by including them, it shows that not all of these actions are in the past- that they are supposedly going to happen in the future as well.


Sure, my next question would be "Are you ok with all of it?" Does genocide sit well with you, even if it is by the side you are on?

[FONT=&quot]We trust in the perfect judgement of God. Some things are easy for us to understand, or more correctly some things are easier for us to produce an explanation for that sits well with us. But the most important thing is trust in God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days[/FONT]

 

[ChristIsTHEKing]

Sure, my next question would be "Are you ok with all of it?" Does genocide sit well with you, even if it is by the side you are on?

Hi, I thought I would try to add too some already good responses. When God took or will take a life based on the scriptures you provided it is out of judgement or punishment which these people earned by their killing of innocent people and the idolatry against God. By definition, killing means to take unlawful murder into ones own hand. Therefore God does not kill, otherwise he would be breaking his own commandment. Furthermore, when God takes a life, he has the power to restore it.
Finally, in your question you have indirectly invoked a moral framework. You are essentially questioning whether this is good. Lets break it down. You are assuming that there is good and evil. With this assumption you must declare that there is a way to differentiate between the two. A moral framework. You cannot have a moral framework without a transcendent moral law giver. Which leads us to the necessary being of God. I would lastly pose this question to you, you want to find fault with the way God has handled certain matters. Are you equally as troubled with the dark matters that live within your own heart? Yes, we all have had them. As Christians we gave them up to the Lord, what will you do?

 

[Merlin]

Do you believe that the OT was inspired by God? Specifically, do you believe the various genocides and vicious laws were directly ordered by God? (You can skim it, emphasis on the bolded parts.)

Examples:

Deuteronomy 3:3-7
So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.

Numbers 31:15-17
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

Isaiah 13:6-18
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.
See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
Like a hunted gazelle,
like sheep without a shepherd,
each will return to his own people,
each will flee to his native land.
Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
all who are caught will fall by the sword.
Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.
See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
Their bows will strike down the young men;
they will have no mercy on infants
nor will they look with compassion on children.

Hosea 13:16
The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Joshua 10:40
So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Proverbs 1:24-28
But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice
and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster;
I will mock when calamity overtakes you-
when calamity overtakes you like a storm,
when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind,
when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
"Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.


Do you believe that these things really were ordered or inspired by God?

Yes, I do.

 

[R3quiem]

You ask this question like there is some meaning behind it.. and for the life of me.. I can't figure out what it is...

Maybe you can help me a bit.. like.. how you figure that kinda question should apply to me...

God Bless

Key

Or perhaps you are reading a bit too far into my question and are drawing from it things that are not there?

This isn't a debate forum, so I'm simply asking the question as to whether people believe these things happened or not, and whether or not they are "ok" with it happening. If you don't feel like answering the second question because you cannot figure out how to apply it to yourself, then don't. There is no compulsion in posting.
Thanks again to all who have continued to reply.