Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

Open Heart

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Paul says "and so" all Israel will be saved. His "And so" is "And so in THIS way" -- the way in Romans 11 that reaches BOTH Jews AND gentiles grafting them ALL into the SAME tree "for they are not all Israel who are merely children of the flesh"

If the Romans 2 and Romans 9 statements are right about gentiles being Jews - then the term "Israel" has to include saved gentiles.
This cannot be the interpretation in Romans 11. Paul is clearly, CLEARLY using the word Israel to refer to unbelieving Jews. He begins the whole section, in chapter 10, with his lament on how he wishes Israel would believe in Christ. He talks in chapter 11 about how they for the gospel are "enemies for your sakes."
 
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Open Heart

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Romans 11 says they are cast out "due to unbelief and God is able to graft them BACK In AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief" - There is no such thing as going to heaven - still at war with God.
cast out due to unbelief= enemies of the gospel
part of the elect = saved
 
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BobRyan

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Romans 11 says they are cast out "due to unbelief and God is able to graft them BACK In AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief" - There is no such thing as going to heaven - still at war with God.

Paul says he is doing whatever he can so that "if by any means I might save some of them" Romans 11

Believers in Israel according to Rom 11

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it,



saints in OT Israel -
Heb 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Saints in Israel
2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Saints in Israel joined with saints among gentiles - into one group.

Rom 11
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
 
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BobRyan

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Spiritual Jews - the Israel of God - to whom the NEW covenant is made "with the house of Israel" Heb 8... Jer 31:31-33

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
 
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Open Heart

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Believers in Israel according to Rom 11
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it,
In this first set of verses, Paul is talking about Israel, not Gentiles: "I am also an Israelite." The remnant in this verse refers therefore to Jews who have become believers in Jesus.



Then come verses that don't apply.

Saints in Israel
Of course there are Jewish believers. I have no argument with that. It still doesn't make Gentile believers Israel. Gentile believers are the children of God, part of the commonwealth, but not Israel.[/QUOTE]
 
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BobRyan

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All of these texts apply - and show that the term "Israel" and "Jew" in the New Testament - were not being used in the limited fashion some have hoped for - which is why the New Covenant applies to gentiles.

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68218466, member: 235244"]
Spiritual Jews - the Israel of God - to whom the NEW covenant is made "with the house of Israel" Heb 8... Jer 31:31-33

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 9
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Heb 8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.[/QUOTE]
 
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BobRyan

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The point here -
Today at 1:13 PM #86

is not that literal Jews do not exist - the point is that the NT teaching is that the saved "Israel" spiritual "Israel" comes from the saved among literal Jews and among literal gentiles. And as you point out - this was also true in the OT.
 
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Open Heart

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the NT teaching is that the saved "Israel" spiritual "Israel" comes from the saved among literal Jews and among literal gentiles. And as you point out - this was also true in the OT.
No it doesn't and NO I didn't. Converts to Judaism in the OT were NO LONGER Gentiles but became Jews. Others, such as God Fearers, are not part of Israel.
 
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BobRyan

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yes it does... and you did stated that circumcision was of the heart and quoted Deut ... and of course Paul males the case clear when it comes to "Israel" that the New Covenant is for "Israel" and the "house of Judah" -- i.e. for all the saints...

Heb 8
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Even the RCC admits that the New Covenant applies to Christians even gentile ones.
 
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Open Heart

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yes it does... and you did stated that circumcision was of the heart and quoted Deut ... and of course Paul males the case clear when it comes to "Israel" that the New Covenant is for "Israel" and the "house of Judah" -- i.e. for all the saints...

Heb 11
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Even the RCC admits that the New Covenant applies to Christians even gentile ones.
the New Covenant of Israel (see jeremiah) is not the same New covenant that Jesus spoke of.
 
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BobRyan

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the New Covenant of Israel (see jeremiah) is not the same New covenant that Jesus spoke of.

It is the one we find in Heb 8... it is the same one... and it is the one Jesus spoke of since the NT saints are teaching the doctrine of Christ according to Matt 28.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

No, the promise was given on a basis of trust in God, Jesus said he would take the kingdom away from them and give it to a nation bearing its fruit, and that's what he did and continues to do.
 
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Open Heart

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It is the one we find in Heb 8... it is the same one... and it is the one Jesus spoke of since the NT saints are teaching the doctrine of Christ according to Matt 28.
The new covenant we find in Hebrews is the one found in Jeremiah. Not so with the one found in Matt.
 
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BobRyan

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The new covenant we find in Hebrews is the one found in Jeremiah. Not so with the one found in Matt.

They both are... Christ is speaking before the cross speaking of the "New Covenant" found in actual scriptures.
 
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Do you believe that Abraham's natural descendants are God's chosen people now?

If you do what is the reason for your belief?

Yes.

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
 
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BobRyan

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In Romans 9 Paul addresses the argument that the Word of God must have failed since the Jews rejected God in the person of His Son.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom 9
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hence the NT reference to the New Covenant given only to spiritual Israel

Yesterday at 4:49 PM #90
 
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In Romans 9 Paul addresses the argument that the Word of God must have failed since the Jews rejected God in the person of His Son.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom 9
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Hence the NT reference to the New Covenant given only to spiritual Israel

Yesterday at 4:49 PM #90

Not so: Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons,

And, of course,

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

The Christian Church has not replaced Israel; we have been grafter into Israel.

Rom 11:17-18 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree, do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root (Israel) that supports you.

 
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MoreCoffee

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Yes.

Gen 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Isn't the promise in the verse you quote made to Abraham and to his seed Jesus Christ? That is how it is explained by saint Paul. Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
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