Do you believe reality must conform to your desires?

[poolerboy0077]

Then why so many arguments here about Christian beliefs? Why can't you just let it be?

Because Christians won't let it be. Because they can't. Because no moral person can simultaneously hold a particular belief but also not act on it. Just like I can't both hold that rape is wrong but think and act nonchalantly when it happens, neither can a Christian hold X belief but do nothing. They would either have to have a diluted version of the belief or not really believe it. Insofar as people believe in things, they will inevitably act on them. Beliefs matter. They matter because they impact lives. YOU may not individually affect me, but the collective does.

 

[bhsmte]

So do you just hang around waiting for someone to violate one of those rules? I'm sure someone who believes in something you don't is going to say something that will offend one of your rules.

I don't know if Christians generally think they are "better" than someone else, but I think it goes without saying that if they didn't think it was better to accept Christ into their life than not to, then they wouldn't have done it. Same could be said for any other decision. People generally decide to do what they believe is better than an alternative decision.

I engage in discussion and the discussion goes in whatever direction it goes.

As I have said, if my being on these boards bothers you so much, put me on ignore and your problems will be solved.

 

[Aldebaran]

Because Christians won't let it be. Because they can't. Because no moral person can simultaneously hold a particular belief but also not act on it. Just like I can't both hold that rape is wrong but think and act nonchalantly when it happens, neither can a Christian hold X belief but do nothing. They would either have to have a diluted version of the belief or not really believe it. Insofar as people believe in things, they will inevitably act on them. Beliefs matter. They matter because they impact lives. YOU may not individually affect me, but the collective does.

So if Christians won't let it be, then you as an atheist has to do...what? Try to make Christians renounce their faith? Will you be satisfied with anything short of that?

 

[poolerboy0077]

So if Christians won't let it be, then you as an atheist has to do...what? Try to make Christians renounce their faith? Will you be satisfied with anything short of that?

We're all in the business of convincing each other. Everyone is. Clearly not everyone is right, and each one of us thinks the other guy is wrong. He only thug that will settle this (at least in principle) is a free-flowing exchange of ideas supported by evidence and reasoned argument. This is important because we want to be guided by as many true beliefs as possible and reject as many false ones since beliefs impact all of us.

 

[Aldebaran]

We're all in the business of convincing each other. Everyone is. Clearly not everyone is right, and each one of us thinks the other guy is wrong. He only thug that will settle this (at least in principle) is a free-flowing exchange of ideas supported by evidence and reasoned argument. This is important because we want to be guided by as many true beliefs as possible and reject as many false ones since beliefs impact all of us.

But my beliefs have no impact on you in any way that should cause you to want to change them. You can cite how Christians may call their congressman to pass certain laws based on their beliefs that may contradict yours, but the answer isn't to go after Christian beliefs. The answer is to call your congressman yourself.

 

[Proud Parrot]

Wow. How very spiteful.

Not at all intended to be. But that that's how you see it should tell you something about yourself and what you choose not to believe. And while a member of a religious forum filled with believers no less.

 

[poolerboy0077]

But my beliefs have no impact on you in any way that should cause you to want to change them.

It doesn't have to impact me personally, because I'm not selfish. If Christian fundamentalist parents hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong and must be changed and they have a gay child, I'll care. The less people we have holding false beliefs, the better, regardless of whether or not I can cite you specific instances of a particular person here or there.

The answer is to call your congressman yourself.

Having institutional change without changing the minds of people who are impacted by said change is quite disastrous. Just look at race relations in this country.

 

[Aldebaran]

It doesn't have to impact me personally, because I'm not selfish. If Christian fundamentalist parents hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong and must be changed and they have a gay child, I'll care. The less people we have holding false beliefs, the better, regardless of whether or not I can cite you specific instances of a particular person here or there.



Having institutional change without changing the minds of people who are impacted by said change is quite disastrous. Just look at race relations in this country.

So what do these things say about atheist's beliefs about freedom to raise our children according to our values, and freedom to believe as we see as correct? As for race relations, I really don't think your beef should be with Christians. The liberal democrats have been increasing racial division and then using it for political gain for a long time. They used it to try to guilt people into voting for Oh Blah Blah and continue using race even after he's been in office for 6 years after being voted in for a second term.

 

[poolerboy0077]

So what do these things say about atheist's beliefs about freedom to raise our children according to our values, and freedom to believe as we see as correct?

Have we deprived anybody of liberty by engaging in conversation and debate with Christians? I really don't get your aversion to challenging ideology. I really don't. As an atheist I feel fundamentalists have the right attitude in comparison to moderates.

As for race relations, I really don't think your beef should be with Christians. The liberal democrats have been increasing racial division and then using it for political gain for a long time. They used it to try to guilt people into voting for Oh Blah Blah and continue using race even after he's been in office for 6 years after being voted in for a second term.

It was an example. You're missing the forrest for the trees. My point is you can't just expect to solve societal ills just by changing governmental institutions. It's important to engage the greater community who is affected.

 

[Aldebaran]

Have we deprived anybody of liberty by engaging in conversation and debate with Christians? I really don't get your aversion to challenging ideology. I really don't. As an atheist I feel fundamentalists have the right attitude in comparison to moderates.

I don't mind the challenge. I usually welcome it and have found benefit in it. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. What I find frustrating is when the atheists ask insincere questions, not as a means to gain an answer, but as a trap, where any answer is seem as not credible, and the answer thrown back in the Christian's face. To me, that's not discussion.

 

[poolerboy0077]

I don't mind the challenge. I usually welcome it and have found benefit in it. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. What I find frustrating is when the atheists ask insincere questions, not as a means to gain an answer, but as a trap, where any answer is seem as not credible, and the answer thrown back in the Christian's face. To me, that's not discussion.

Such as?

 

[Angelquill]

Reality need not conform to my desires.
But it must and it does conform to God's.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't mind the challenge. I usually welcome it and have found benefit in it. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. What I find frustrating is when the atheists ask insincere questions, not as a means to gain an answer, but as a trap, where any answer is seem as not credible, and the answer thrown back in the Christian's face. To me, that's not discussion.

I think that you should investigate the Socratic method.

It isn't about insincerity, but about sincerely seeking to uncover problems with arguments in an effort to remove blindness to better ways of thinking.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

So what do these things say about atheist's beliefs about freedom to raise our children according to our values, and freedom to believe as we see as correct?

Atheism doesn't reflect some monolithic view on politics, so there is variation possible there.

However, when it comes to democracy, the model depends on an open society where people can discuss issues and influence each other. The hope is that truth will tend to prevail when rational minds are able to hear each other out and weed out falsehoods. Granted, it doesn't always work like that since people tend to be emotionally attached to their views, but it's better than having everyone hide in their bunkers and never change their minds on anything.

So, sure, I think that you should be able to raise your children with your values, and to have the freedom to live by your beliefs and to speak them without fear of government reprisal, as long as you respect the equal rights of other people to do the same regarding their values and beliefs. Part of that freedom of speaking one's mind is the freedom to at least try to influence others as long as they are willing to listen. No one is obligated to listen, but I would hope that as a matter of civic virtue, or ideally philosophic interest, that good citizens will take some interest in their communities and nation and give some thought to pressing issues.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[CryOfALion]

I am sure many people believe everything should conform to their desires, despite the rhetoric to the contrary (perhaps claiming to come from a more noble position, or out of dialogue.) There are a forums on here devoted to the development art of that expectation.

How do I know? Scoffing, incredulity and ridicule take care 75% of the lot. The rest is a mix of people maliciously and disingenuously deigning sincerity.

*shugs* at the end of the day, a disagreement is two realities that conflict. Human nature; some are fine with it being just that.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Scoffing, incredulity and ridicule take care 75% of the lot. The rest is a mix of people maliciously and disingenuously deigning sincerity.

Wow. You seem to be a thorough-going cynic. But do you apply that cynicism to yourself? Are you maliciously and disingenuously deigning sincerity in your view? Or was your post intended as scoffing, incredulity, or ridicule?

It seems to me that you were just being honest with us about your views, but then I am not a cynic.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Colter]

I used to think this line of reasoning was found only in religious moderates, and that fundamentalists rejected this.

Essentially the reasoning I'm talking about goes like this:

Religious moderate version:

"How can you fundamentalists believe in a God who condones horrific atrocities?! I want there to be a loving God, so He must be loving (or actually be love)!"


Fundamentalist version I recently stumbled upon:

"How can you religious moderates/atheists possibly believe in evolution?! The theory promotes a random, meaningless, mindless, purposeless and directionless creation."


​

To see the absurdity in this line of reasoning, consider these examples:



Person X: I like the color pink. Therefore, there are probably pink cats in the world.

OR​

Person Y: I believe there is a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my backyard. I know some people see this as absurd but...I just couldn't live in a universe that didn't have a diamond of that size buried in my backyard. It gives my life meaning and purpose.

OR​

Person Z: Oh my goodness! How can you believe that people actually get raped in real life?! What a horrible belief to hold! Why don't you just believe what I believe instead: that people are all nice to each other and just hold hands to sing Kumbayah all day?



Do you recognize these arguments as absurd? Perhaps you don't. If you don't, why don't you? Do you feel reality has to conform to a rosy picture you have in your mind?

The child of God (the finite mind) seeks to know and understand the creators relationship with mankind in light of his own experience in reality. Man does tend to create expectations of Gods relatedness to his creation as a personality based on his own emotional constitution. While we may be a faint shadow of God, man was created in Gods image, personality comes from God, therefore we tend to glean something of the reality of God from other personality which forms the basis of assumptions within reality.

 

[CryOfALion]

Wow. You seem to be a thorough-going cynic. But do you apply that cynicism to yourself? Are you maliciously and disingenuously deigning sincerity in your view? Or was your post intended as scoffing, incredulity, or ridicule?

It seems to me that you were just being honest with us about your views, but then I am not a cynic.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Interesting. You aren't a cynic, but eudaimonia is pretty central to cynicism. It seems you are using it as a general position and pleasantry.

I would be considered philosophically cynical in most of my philosophy of life. A lot of the principles and philosophy is similar to Christian living anyway. I am less colloquially cynical, though I do believe most people are driven by selfish means. Again, however, I am a philosophical cynic, not a colloquial one.

I have certainly been malicious and incredulous in the past, but not so much now. I entertain everything no matter the content, and I evaluate myself on a basis that allows for as little self-driven interests as possible (as opposed to with what I am comfortable.)

The people that the OP addresses - people who believe reality MUST conform to their desires - are the people who are armed with scoffing, malice, incredulity, insincerity, etc. This allows their reality to be the most logical (by association,) and thus satisfactory when faced with challenges. That is why I alluded to forums that do this, because it happens often just on this microcosm of a forum. Both atheist, theist and everything around and between do this, sometimes so much they do not realize it (especially in life.) My post answered the OP, based on what I believe - as the OP asked - not necessarily objectivity.

Almost forgot, it doesn't take much to have proof of what cynicism suggest today. Egos are almost visible today; they have become praised under sweeter, more acceptable euphemisms. Money has become a more important currency than anything, even crossing over as spiritual, or "currency of humanity," replacing the need for consideration, love, care, charity, patience, peace and many other things. Ask someone what they would rather have: more than enough money, or more than enough love. People complain of planetary overcrowding, but no one is willing to give up living in a city of 8 million in a space of 200 Sq miles and live in the "sticks" where there are plenty of resources. Asceticism isn't for everyone, but I don't think a culture of overindulgence and opulence helps anyone except the over indulgent and opulent.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Reality need not conform to my desires.
But it must and it does conform to God's.

If that were completely true, considering god is supposed to be a completely benevolent being from a Christian perspective, would not the world actually be without sin and suffering?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What you are talking about is the principle of the primacy of consciousness and it is rampant. This is the view that reality will conform to conscious desires. I hold strictly to the opposite view that existence holds primacy and things are what they are and do what they do regardless of anyone's likes or dislikes. Religion is the primary promoter of the primacy of consciousness view of the world and it is one of the main reasons that I reject religion.

Usually it is just implied in statements like "you just have to have faith", "things will work out if you just believe", and "mind over matter". But religion makes the principle explicit with prayer and stories about mountains moving from here to there with the faith of a mustard seed and water turning into wine. These things are taught to children from the earliest age.

Let's work for the day when the vast majority hold to the primacy of existence. It will be a much better world.

Many people do think that the bearded nut wearing the bedsheet with the sign "World Ends Tomorrow" represents all of religion.