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do you believe once saved always saved?

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I'm sorry if this has been said already, but, honestly I just find it somewhat alarming just how frail people seem to think the work of the Cross is that it can be undone. I think to say that salvation isn't eternal or can be undone, quite frankly, mocks what Christ did for us at Golgotha.
Jesus Himself is the first fruit of the Resurrected Church, and when the Resurrection occurs, we will be made like Him in bodily form. Do any of us honestly believe that Christ would ever go back from that to having a body that can perish again? Or is it more so that, Christ has conquered death and it shall never more have a grip on Him? Why else is it said He holds the keys of death and hades, and if He does indeed hold them as the Bible claims, why would He hand over ANY of His flock to those vanquished foes?
He intercedes for us at the right hand of God RIGHT NOW as we speak. He pleads our case to the Father, and we have been crucified along with Christ to the old ways of sin and death, and in Him find life in a new creation. These bodies will perish, but He didn't come to save our flesh, but our souls.
Is not the work of the Cross superceding over any of our sins? Did it not cover future sins? If it didn't, not one of us past the day of the of His crucifixtion would be saved. Yet we know that's not the case, and if His sacrifice atones for the sins of those 2000 years later, why would it not cover their sins PAST the date of their salvation? Would it not cover them ENTIRELY for their WHOLE lives?
 
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I'm sorry if this has been said already, but, honestly I just find it somewhat alarming just how frail people seem to think the work of the Cross is that it can be undone. I think to say that salvation isn't eternal or can be undone, quite frankly, mocks what Christ did for us at Golgotha.
Jesus Himself is the first fruit of the Resurrected Church, and when the Resurrection occurs, we will be made like Him in bodily form. Do any of us honestly believe that Christ would ever go back from that to having a body that can perish again? Or is it more so that, Christ has conquered death and it shall never more have a grip on Him? Why else is it said He holds the keys of death and hades, and if He does indeed hold them as the Bible claims, why would He hand over ANY of His flock to those vanquished foes?
He intercedes for us at the right hand of God RIGHT NOW as we speak. He pleads our case to the Father, and we have been crucified along with Christ to the old ways of sin and death, and in Him find life in a new creation. These bodies will perish, but He didn't come to save our flesh, but our souls.
Is not the work of the Cross superceding over any of our sins? Did it not cover future sins? If it didn't, not one of us past the day of the of His crucifixtion would be saved. Yet we know that's not the case, and if His sacrifice atones for the sins of those 2000 years later, why would it not cover their sins PAST the date of their salvation? Would it not cover them ENTIRELY for their WHOLE lives? __________________





well said it troubles me as well that anyone could think the work of the cross could be undone
 
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JAS4Yeshua

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A person cannot lose their Salvation. By the same token, I do believe that a person can willfully reject their Salvation. There is a large difference between the two. The first is a person who sins (whether it is one time or continual stumbling). No amount of sin can separate a person from God. The second is a person who chooses to turn their back on God.

Some might argue that the second was never saved to begin with. That is not the point, though. Only God knows the condition of a person's heart. In addition, there are plenty of warnings in the Bible about "falling away." Even Jesus warns about returning to first love so their names don't get blotted out of the Book of Life.

Both statements are accurate and true, provided they are used in their proper context.
 
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I think that it is possible to be saved and then fall off the path (like if the person said they accepted Christ, but they go back to doing sin like they did before). But I think that if the person sins and then asks forgiveness, combined with trying not to commit that sin again, then that person is truly and always saved. I think that's kind of how we all are too, we fall off but if we truly believe, then yes once saved, always saved! :thumbsup:
 
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holyrokker

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Salvation is "by grace through faith".

Faith is a heart response to the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith is also part of a daily walk with Christ.

"Without faith it's impossible to please God"

What salvation boils down to, in essence, is a right relationship with God through faith in Christ.

It's not a one-time event. It's not like buying an airplane ticket.

Salvation is a "present tense" experience.

All this to say:
I think the doctrine of "eternal security" (or once saved always saved) is bad theology.
 
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WuAgent

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what are some you guys' definition of "saved"?

it is very possible to fall away from God and lose your salvation. i think some of you are confusing guarantee with opportunity and works with obedience.

hebrews 4:1-6

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

1 timothy 1:18-20

18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

1 corinthians 15:1-2

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

2 timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


the opportunity of salvation is always gonna be there but that doesnt mean you're gauranteed to cash it in no matter what you do. we are still required to live in obedience to God. if we dont do this, then we lose out on the promise of salvation.

as already mentioned. being saved is not a one time deal, it is a decision that must be made daily and on purpose. to daily trust and obey God.
 
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holyrokker

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:thumbsup:
what are some you guys' definition of "saved"?

it is very possible to fall away from God and lose your salvation. i think some of you are confusing guarantee with opportunity and works with obedience.

hebrews 4:1-6

1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.

1 timothy 1:18-20

18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

1 corinthians 15:1-2

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

2 timothy 4:6-8

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


the opportunity of salvation is always gonna be there but that doesnt mean you're gauranteed to cash it in no matter what you do. we are still required to live in obedience to God. if we dont do this, then we lose out on the promise of salvation.

as already mentioned. being saved is not a one time deal, it is a decision that must be made daily and on purpose. to daily trust and obey God.

:amen:

In it's most basic form, salvation is a relationship with God.
 
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Here is what I think, Once saved always saved for as long as you wish to be! Once saved, you do still have freedom of choice to deny Christ and therefore lose your salvation. Does anyone agree?
I don't think that's true at all to be frank. Peter himself denied Christ three times, but Jesus still loved and loves him dearly. I don't think for those three denials he wasn't saved.
Don't forget this bit of scripture:
Romans 8:28-39 NIV
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The thing is, we are being made like Christ in our sanctification through the Spirit. That sanctification can get interrupted, but Salvation is the promise that we shall be spared the coming wrath on the Day of Judgment. God is true to His promises, and because He promises to save us from that, our own actions cannot derail our salvation, because we cannot overpower God. Nothing can.

Romans 9:16-18 NIV
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

If man's salvation is not dependent on our own effort, what remains but God's grace? Is not His grace that mercy spoken of? Who can pry open the hand of God once it's been closed around one of His own? Can you? No. Can I? Certainly not. Can the devil himself? No!

Did God save any of us so that we can brag "It's dependent on my ability to be faithful?", or did He do it that we might know the power and the glory of the One, True God first hand? That our lives might be a testimony to that Eternal Power, for His Glory, and to His good pleasure?

Should we be faithful? Yes, a million times over, yes. But if we stumble, fall to a temptation, and sin, are we condemned all over again? No, why? Because Christ died but once, to take away our sins for all time. Since He's already saved us in that single act, what can we do again? If each sin is accounted for, what can be done to take us out of His Hand? Not a thing. But now that we have the chance to do good finally, let us not forsake that chance by pursuing that sinful nature that is still in us, that is the flesh. We have a chance to fellowship with God finally, reconcilliation. No one in Christ is condemned, not one.
 
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God can indeed choose certain people to be his like he did with the disciples, and he can choose who will be subjects to his wrath like he did with pharoah.

however, thats not what he has done for everyone in the faith. if this is the case then scripture contradicts itself.

hebrews 3:12-14

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

there's no reason for this warning to the saints if God arbitrarily chooses who's gonna make it and who is not. we wouldnt need to hold on to anything, our salvation would be gauranteed no matter what.
 
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God can indeed choose certain people to be his like he did with the disciples, and he can choose who will be subjects to his wrath like he did with pharoah.

however, thats not what he has done for everyone in the faith. if this is the case then scripture contradicts itself.

hebrews 3:12-14

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.

there's no reason for this warning to the saints if God arbitrarily chooses who's gonna make it and who is not. we wouldnt need to hold on to anything, our salvation would be gauranteed no matter what.

That's not necessarily saying that if you don't share in Christ you're no longer saved, it may be speaking of no longer having a fellowship with God and your relationship with Him being on the rocks. For example, the immoral brother spoken of in

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NIV
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

We read about a brother who's sinning flagrantly in the open in a church in Corinth, yet Paul does not say, "Toss this man out, he is not of God and His salvation has no place for him." But exactly as it says, toss him out that his sinful desires might be done away with and he himself will be saved on the day of Christ's coming at the Resurrection.
 
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osas isdenominational teaching!

Peter said

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Jesus said

Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mk 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

so much for denominational teaching osas!!
 
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WuAgent

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That's not necessarily saying that if you don't share in Christ you're no longer saved, it may be speaking of no longer having a fellowship with God and your relationship with Him being on the rocks. For example, the immoral brother spoken of in

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 NIV
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

We read about a brother who's sinning flagrantly in the open in a church in Corinth, yet Paul does not say, "Toss this man out, he is not of God and His salvation has no place for him." But exactly as it says, toss him out that his sinful desires might be done away with and he himself will be saved on the day of Christ's coming at the Resurrection.

the passage you underlined is exactly what im saying and the part of your post that i underlined is also what im saying.

let me make this clear to you because there's two possible things that can happen and God's word does not say that the person is guaranteed to turn back if they're tossed out:

toss them out...sinful desires done away with.... will be saved on the day christ comes.

toss them out...sinful desires NOT done away with... will NOT be saved on the day christ comes.
 
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the passage you underlined is exactly what im saying and the part of your post that i underlined is also what im saying.

let me make this clear to you because there's two scenarios here and God's word does not say that the person is gauranteed to turn back if they're tossed out:

toss them out...sinful desires done away with.... will be saved on the day christ comes.

toss them out...sinful desires NOT done away with... will NOT be saved on the day christ comes.
Here's a bit of a curve ball for you then. You seem to be of the position that Salvation is something that can be fallen away from, if that is indeed true, then I believe we are all in trouble if we don't apply understanding of scripture in totality with itself.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So, if it is impossible for someone who's been enlightened, that is, saved, to come back to repentance if they fall away, if someone can lose their salvation, there's no coming back from that. But, does not God assure us in Christ all our sins are forgiven?

Hebrews 9:25-28 NIV
25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:5-25 NIV
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.


What Paul is saying in his encouragement that we remain faithful is such, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God Himself, died for our sins, we all know this, we all attest to this, we all believe this, obviously. To disrespect that is a very bad thing, there is no doubting that.
But, with that in mind, we have to understand what it means when we consider it as a whole. If Christ died ONCE for our sins, does that not cover future sins? If it did not, how are any of us alive past the Crucifixion saved at all? We wouldn't be if that sacrifice didn't stand for all time for the believer. Even if they become backslidden, the Holy Spirit remains upon them because of their initial faith.

And because I anticipate someone will bring this up, I'll address the immediate passages after the quoted above.

Hebrews 10:26-30 NIV
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

He's not talking about a believer here. He is talking about someone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. After all, the Day of Judgment is not for the righteous, I.E, those in Christ, but the unrepentant, the unsaved. If he WERE talking about the saved, he would be completely contradicting what he said immediately above!

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NIV
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

If a Christian becomes unbelieving, his misdeeds and ill gotten works will be stacked like sticks for a fire, but he will be saved.

John 5:24 NIV
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NIV
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You have probably heard a few times in scripture of someone passing from death to life in Christ, but tell me, have you EVER heard of someone passing from life to death? Can Christ's resurrection be undone? Or is the word of God more powerful than man's unfaithfulness? God will deal with the unbelieving child, just as any parent will discipline an obstinate child, so will God deal with His own.
 
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Here's a bit of a curve ball for you then. You seem to be of the position that Salvation is something that can be fallen away from, if that is indeed true, then I believe we are all in trouble if we don't apply understanding of scripture in totality with itself.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
you're absolutely right. we do need to understand scripture in its totality.

hebrews 6:9-12

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

so lets start by dealing with these contradictions of scripture. there's NO reason for us to be diligent to the end if our salvation is guaranteed.

why would paul say to show the same diligence to the very end to make our hope sure if its been decided already?

why say that through faith and patience we inherit whats been promised and not through God sovereign choice?

why would paul say that someone would fall short of a rest that has been guaranteed to us?

why would paul say by this gospel you have been saved and we should hold firmly to it unless it be in vein if its all in the bag?

and why did paul say that some did not enter the rest because of their disobedience and not because God didnt choose them?

What Paul is saying in his encouragement that we remain faithful is such, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God Himself, died for our sins, we all know this, we all attest to this, we all believe this, obviously. To disrespect that is a very bad thing, there is no doubting that.
But, with that in mind, we have to understand what it means when we consider it as a whole. If Christ died ONCE for our sins, does that not cover future sins? If it did not, how are any of us alive past the Crucifixion saved at all? We wouldn't be if that sacrifice didn't stand for all time for the believer. Even if they become backslidden, the Holy Spirit remains upon them because of their initial faith.
yes, he did die once for all our sins, past, present, and future which means we can have access to that forgiveness IF WE REPENT! if we sin and dont repent from our actions then we lose out on the promise because we made a choice to turn away from the promise. God will make us go through some crap to try and convince us to turn back but we still have to make a decision to turn back.

He's not talking about a believer here. He is talking about someone who has heard the Gospel and rejected it. After all, the Day of Judgment is not for the righteous, I.E, those in Christ, but the unrepentant, the unsaved. If he WERE talking about the saved, he would be completely contradicting what he said immediately above!
he IS talking about believers in that scripture. why does he say "we". paul is a believer too. then that passage says

"who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him"

people who dont believe what they heard arent sanctified. you dont get sanctified just by hearing the Good news. you get sanctified by hearing then believing the Good news.

the only people who can be sanctified are believers of the word, not just hearers of the word.

check it:

matthew 13:18-23

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

i was the guy whom the seed fell on rocks. when i heard the word i received it gladly and did well spiritually, but when touble came i fell away. i was like that for 10 years and then i made choice to believe God on a certain matter and he revealed himself to me and i was restored to him.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 NIV
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

If a Christian becomes unbelieving, his misdeeds and ill gotten works will be stacked like sticks for a fire, but he will be saved.
i dont agree with your interpretation. i believe this is talking about rewards in heaven. it doesnt say anything about bad deeds but about worthless material things that have no value in the coming age(gold, silver, costly stones, etc). we will lose all the worthless material possessions that we accumulate on this earth but the eternal things like loving our neighbor as ourself through numerous deeds like caring for widows and orphans, providing for the poor, spending time with people who need a friend, etc. will gain us rewards in the coming age.

i think it goes along with this passage:

matthew 6:19-21

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

John 5:24 NIV
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
of course they will. thats what happens when one believes and begins to submit their life to jesus. they become eligable for salvation and escape condemnation, thus passing from death to life.

now if you want to say that it says they "have it" and not "they'll get it" this would contradict the "if we keep on sinning" passage that i showed is talking about those who are saved or in other words "have been sanctified".

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 NIV
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
thats right. those who are in christ are a new creation. how one gets to be in christ is whats in question here.

You have probably heard a few times in scripture of someone passing from death to life in Christ, but tell me, have you EVER heard of someone passing from life to death? Can Christ's resurrection be undone? Or is the word of God more powerful than man's unfaithfulness? God will deal with the unbelieving child, just as any parent will discipline an obstinate child, so will God deal with His own.
have i ever heard someone passing from life to death? thats not even an argument, thats just a charismatic statement.

who said christs resurrection can be undone? the opportunity God provided for us through his sacrifice is there for everyone who will believe thus live in trust and obedience to the relationship that the father sought with us by sacrificing his son. this opportunity will stand until the time of judgement or until one dies, which ever comes first.

some parents attempt to disciple their children and they never straighten out. does that mean they were never their children to begin with?
 
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if you or anyone else can show me that my interpretation is in error than i will gladly accept what you say, but i have yet to get sufficient conformation from scripture of what you propose. i refuse to accept something as scriptural truth because it fits my life, or sounds nice, is comfortable for me and being in a situation where my salvation is iron clad regardless of my life choices would certainly be neato.

i have to, with all my effort, interpret scripture as accurately as possible, take it for what it is, and deal with it by aligning my life with it. again, if anyone can show me that im off in my interpretation than i'll change my position.

take care..
 
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holyrokker

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if you or anyone else can show me that my interpretation is in error than i will gladly accept what you say, but i have yet to get sufficient conformation from scripture of what you propose. i refuse to accept something as scriptural truth because it fits my life, or sounds nice, is comfortable for me and being in a situation where my salvation is iron clad regardless of my life choices would certainly be neato.

i have to, with all my effort, interpret scripture as accurately as possible, take it for what it is, and deal with it by aligning my life with it. again, if anyone can show me that im off in my interpretation than i'll change my position.

take care..
I can't show that your conclusions are in error, because they stack up with the overall teaching of Scripture! :thumbsup:

God bless you!
 
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