Do you believe in the Death Penalty?

[EnemyPartyII]

They prefer assassinations!

Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?

 

[Piedpiper123]

Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?

 

[Simonline]

I noticed your faith icon is Messianic Judaism. It is interesting to note that Judaism for the most part does not agree with you. Scholars of Judaism agree with you that the death penalty is permissible by bible standards, [obviously since they don’t follow the teachings of Jesus] but do not believe it is applicable to the modern world today, since you would have to have a near perfect justice system to justify it’s application. The justice system in the US is far from perfect. Israel has not executed anyone since 1962. As a matter of fact it was the only execution ever to take place in modern Israel. The person was a Nazi war criminal, Adolph Eichmann. He was responsible for the extermination of 6 million Jews. The evidence in the case was overwhelming, unlike 99 percent of the death penalty cases in the US. From your post you obviously disagree with the scholars of Judaism on this issue.

Seek

What Jewish scholars do or do not believe is not the issue and as I have already said, truth is not established on the basis of concensus. The issue is what the Scriptures as the revealed Word of God teach since, for Judeo-Christians, it is the Bible that is our canon rather than the received wisdom of centuries of Jewish scholarship. Until anyone can show, from the Scriptures, that capital punishment, as the instrument of God's judgement for the sin of murder, has been abrogated then, as far as I am concerned, the injunction of Gen.9:6 must still stand no matter how unpopular it might be amongst some Christians?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

So, been away for a couple of weeks... where are we up to? Has anyone given a reasonable explanation of how execution is justifiable in any system where the possibility of executing an innocent person exists yet?

Yes, I have, thank you, if you would care to read all my posts on this thread?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Thanks for the continuing posts which I read with interest. Just so you know I think this thread is the fastest growing on the forum. In 4 months we are nearly up to 1000 posts.

Are you aiming to set a record?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

They prefer assassinations!

Not true. The State of Israel prefers to try people in a court of law. However, due to the international political situation and the rabid anti-semitism that is engendered as a result of a particularly pernicious propaganda war against her (of which this post to which I am replying is a classic example), that is not always possible. As a result she is forced to resort to somewhat 'unorthodox' methods to bring about the justice which she is regularly denied in international courts.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Try not to confuse secular expedience with religious belief, huh?

What secular expedience? The motivation for the crimes that necessitated the assassinations (i.e. Islam) and the assassinations themselves (Biblical Judaism) were primarily religious?!

Simonline.

 

[LoveAlways]

No

 

[Simonline]

No

Very profound. Care to let us in on the rest of your thinking?

Simonline.

 

[Girly3302]

I noticed your faith icon is Messianic Judaism. It is interesting to note that Judaism for the most part does not agree with you. Scholars of Judaism agree with you that the death penalty is permissible by bible standards, [obviously since they don’t follow the teachings of Jesus] but do not believe it is applicable to the modern world today, since you would have to have a near perfect justice system to justify it’s application. The justice system in the US is far from perfect. Israel has not executed anyone since 1962. As a matter of fact it was the only execution ever to take place in modern Israel. The person was a Nazi war criminal, Adolph Eichmann. He was responsible for the extermination of 6 million Jews. The evidence in the case was overwhelming, unlike 99 percent of the death penalty cases in the US. From your post you obviously disagree with the scholars of Judaism on this issue.

Seek

Main article: Corporal punishment (Judaism)
While allowing for the death penalty in some hypothetical circumstances, scholars of Judaism are broadly opposed to the death penalty as practiced in the modern world.

Wow that's amazing that the scholars of Judaism, men who know the old testament inside out, oppose the death penalty. I guess that basiclly ends the debate. Jesus says a life for a life from the old testament is no longer in effect. The men who have spent a life studying the old testament say that you can't apply the death penalty to the modern world.That doesn't leave much left for pro death penalty. But I guess there are always weekend theologians who think they understand old testament law better than all the scholars of Judaism in the world and who don't take much salt in what Jesus said.

 

[Simonline]

Wow that's amazing that the scholars of Judaism, men who know the old testament inside out, oppose the death penalty. I guess that basiclly ends the debate. Jesus says a life for a life from the old testament is no longer in effect. The men who have spent a life studying the old testament say that you can't apply the death penalty to the modern world.That doesn't leave much left for pro death penalty. But I guess there are always weekend theologians who think they understand old testament law better than all the scholars of Judaism in the world and who don't take much salt in what Jesus said.

I'm sorry but this is an unbelievably spurrious argument.

It does not follow that Jewish scholars 'who know the Old Testament inside out' are de facto correct simply because they happen to be Jewish scholars who just happen to know the Old Testament inside out'?! It is a well known fact (especially amongst the Jews) that if you put three Jews together in a room and get them to discuss theology you will end up with a major debate with at least five different points of view?! It simply is not true that all Judaism is monolithically anti-capital punishment and it certainly isn't true that the Scriptures themselves are anti-capital punishment.

As for your assertion that 'Jesus says that a life for a life from the Old Testament is no longer in effect' (?!) means that you must believe that the Messiah's atonement on the cross ('one life for millions of lives') was a monumental mistake on God's part (did Jesus forget to send him the memo to update Him)?!

I'm sorry but your argument is nothing short of laughable. You have, quite literally, ripped the words of the Messiah out of all context and used them to try and substantiate your own theological presuppositions. That is eisegesis (reading into the Scriptures what you think they should say or what you want them to say) rather than exegesis (reading from the Scriptures (in their original context) what they actually do say for themselves).

The context (which you have so conveniently ignored) shows that the Messiah was teaching His disciples (rather than the crowds as is popularly, but erroneously, assumed), as the first members of of His soon to be new ekklesia or Church (Matt.5:1-2). The context therefore was conduct for believers within the ekklesia. It is within this context that the Messiah declares "You have heard that it was said 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matt.5:38-39).

Indeed, the Messiah also declares (within the same passage (Matt.5:21-22)) "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother 'Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says 'you fool' will be in danger if the Lake of Fire." Far from abolishing the Divinely instituted punishments for murder (Gen.9:6; Ex.21:12; Rom.13:1-7) the Messiah is, for His disciples at least, raising the standard of holiness even higher to include what a person thinks in the heart as well as what they act out with their bodies, the punishment for which will be far worse than just physical execution. In other words, it is no longer a case of just being judged by civil authorities for one's outward actions, it is now a case of being judged by God for one's inward thoughts and passions as well, the consequences of which will be far worse and, unlike physical execution at the hands of civil authorities, will last forever.

There is absolutely no mention by the Messiah anywhere in this passage of capital punishment for capital crimes being abolished (Matt.5:17-21).

So who is really treating the Messiah with contempt by conveniently manipulating and/or ignoring his words when it doesn't suit them and then trying to justify themselves on the basis of spurrious arguments (Jas.1:22-25)?!

Simonline.

 

[Girly3302]

I'm sorry but this is an unbelievably spurrious argument.

I'm sorry but your argument is nothing short of laughable.

So who is really treating the Messiah with contempt by conveniently manipulating and/or ignoring his words when it doesn't suit them and then trying to justify themselves on the basis of spurrious arguments
Simonline.

In a previous post you said people who are against the death penalty were ignorant and had a mindless attitude. Now you are saying anyone who disagrees with you on this topic is treating the Messiah with contempt? As if calling people stupid and bad makes you right and them wrong, on the contrary it makes people less prone to listen. Why do people always resort to insults when their arguments fall apart?

I am not a good debater but I have read some very strong biblically sound arguments against the death penalty and very little in defence of it but secular arguments and some completely illogical arguments. The only strong argument is old testament scripture but now I find even the jewish scholars who study thoroughly only follow the old testament don’t support it.

 

[Girly3302]

Excellent posts!!!!

I'm against it.

I don't believe it's our place to punish someone, even if they've murdered someone. God will handle those who wrong us.

The word says, "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: 'It is mind to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord." - Romans 12:19

No one can argue with the word of God. That includes ALL wrongdoings, even those that people come up with to put criminals through the death penalty.

Besides, why waste our time killing someone when we can try to help them change or see what they did with the word of God?

You can't say that everyone would want to kill them. That's each persons choice. Yeah it is a horrible crime, but there are people out there who have mercy on those who do crimes like this. More mercy needs to be spread around because we're commanded by God to have mercy on others. We don't deserve mercy, but God gives it to us anyways, we should be able to do the same and set an example of how God's love works.

If people are going to be killed for murder and whatever else crimes, then we might as well all be put to death because we're all guilty of crimes against God. Murder is a crime against God because it's against His creation and yet we're all guilty of crime against God's creation somehow, even if it's lying or being hateful. No sin is worse than another because it's simply sin.

Jesus didn't die on the cross so we'd be vengeful towards others, He died so that we might actually have mercy for each other. Jesus' blood covered everyone's sin, and that does not exempt murderers. Jesus died so that we might act like brothers and sisters in Christ and not be hateful or vengeful towards each other, even if those people aren't Christians, they deserve our love and God commands us to love them. The world isn't perfect, but that doesn't mean we have to go down with it.

Jesus didn't allow the woman in John 8 to be stoned because of her adultery. Murderers shouldn't be put to death because of their sin. Every sin is darkness and it's all bad. None of us can point fingers or say that someone deserves to die because we want vengeance or something of the sort.

God did say that Genesis 9:6, I remember reading it and it came to mind when replying to this, but Jesus' blood covered that because His blood covered all sin. No one is exempt from the blood of Jesus and if we have that attitude, then we need to check it and fast.

In most countries the Death penalty is used against murderers.

Jesus tells us if we get angry at a brother or sister we have comitted murder. Hence we are all murderers.
We should all be executed seeing as we have all murdered.
I am against the DP

 

[Girly3302]

Excellent post!!!

Hello-

No, I don't believe in the death penalty. Here's why:

If some of the reasons given for supporting that idea are that some people are just "born evil," I would like to bring to mind the concept of original sin. Technically, we are all born "fallen" in this case. There is the age of accountability (which I, too, believe in), but as it stands we are a fallen human race. For the most part, we all sin -babies do not sin; hence, the age of accountability. In the Bible, it states that because of this, because we are sinful, we all deserve death. This is why we must believe in Christ's sacrifice for us in order to become re-born and attain eternal life with the Father.

Someone might add that some sins are just different than others. According to whom? Us? Yes, there are certain crimes that are just too horrific for words, but in God's eyes I believe that He sees all sin as equivocable. If some sins were more or less offensive to Him, there would be an issue of pride or comparison with others ("Well, I may have had an affair with a married woman, but at least I didn't kill my wife like that one guy did!")

There are verses which speak of God's immense love for children, so I don't doubt that God is beyond-hurt when crimes are committed against His children. But, justice is the the Lord's. When we kill for retribution, we take that away from Him, figuratively-speaking. We are saying -in a sense- that God cannot handle certain affairs on His own. He needs us to butt-in and do some butt-kicking for Him. There are plenty of verses in the Bible which call for peace and look down upon acts of vengeance. God doesn't want us being about that. After all, for some crimes, there is no retribution. I mean, is there? Will killing someone else who killed someone else really bring about any peace? Would killing a convicted pedophile who later murdered his prey create any real peace or bring about any true sense of resolution? No amount of lethal injections could possibly be enough. See what I'm getting at?


Anyway, hope that helped!

Mercy, compassion, empathy, humility, forgiveness and Christ-like love

I am not your typical opponent of capital punishment. I have read so much about capital punishment that I have heard just about every argument for and against and every pro and con. Most opponents of capital punishment have one or more of the following objections to the institution:


1.) Unequal meting out of the death penalty. Low-income people, minorities and men receive a disproportionate number of death sentences. And murders of white people are punished by death at a greater rate than murders of minorities.

2.) Injustice. Low-income people don’t get adequate legal representation. Their cases are handled by overworked court appointed defense attorneys. And similar disparities in justice between low-income and wealthy people, minorities and white people, etc.

3.) The risk of executing innocent people. The death penalty is irreversible.

4.) Losing the moral high ground. The death penalty brings everybody down to the level of the murderers.

5.) It doesn’t bring back the murder victims.

6.) Expense. The death penalty costs more than life incarceration.

7.) Uncivilized. The death penalty is barbaric.

8.) Cruel and inhumane. The condemned suffers no matter what known method is used.

9.) Revenge. The death penalty is retribution.

10.) Life is precious. Even the worst killer can still live a productive life and do some good.

11.) It is not a deterrent. It doesn‘t prevent other murders.

12.) It incites murder. There have been exceptional cases where people have killed to be killed by the state.


...And many others that I have probably left out.

Let’s suppose, however, that we could eliminate all unequal application of the death penalty. Meanwhile, let’s suppose that we could eliminate all disparities in legal representation. And let’s suppose that we could make executions completely painless and free of any suffering for the condemned. Even if we could eliminate those problems; eliminate all human error and never again convict an innocent person; and take care of all the other common objections to capital punishment, I would still be opposed to capital punishment.

I don’t care if revenge motivates death penalty supporters or not. I don’t care what convicted killers can and cannot do with the rest of their lives. I don’t care if capital cases are more expensive, less expensive or cost the same as non-capital cases. I don’t care if capital punishment is refined or is “barbaric”.

I don’t care who does or does not end up on the moral high ground; people don’t care about the moral high ground in most of their conduct, so why should they suddenly care about the moral high ground when dealing with a convicted murderer? The moral high ground should be where everybody wants to always be, never mind capital murder cases.

I don’t care if executions dissuade no murderers or are so effective a deterrent that they end all murder. Even if executions were to end all killings legally defined as murder, I suspect that ecological reality would mean that the same number of people would be killed some other way.

Even if executing a killer could somehow miraculously bring back his victims, what would that accomplish? We would still be without a life--the only difference being that it’s the life of the one convicted in a court of law of committing murder rather than the life/lives he was convicted of taking. Either way, we all lose.

No, I don’t oppose capital punishment for those reasons. Those objections are really objections to things like racism, inequality, injustice, waste, inefficiency, cruelty, inhumanity, incivility, disorder, anarchy, moral relativity, amorality, deviance and public danger.

What I object to is the conceit, arrogance, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, mean-spiritedness, hard-heartedness, and irrationality of most supporters of and participants in state sponsored executions.

I’ll say it again: I have never detected an iota of humility in a supporter of and participant in state sponsored executions.

I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are unfortunate. I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are a tragedy that they wish could have been avoided. I have never heard a death penalty proponent say that executions are a necessary evil.

What I have gotten from supporters of state sponsored executions is that they find such executions to be very satisfying. They love an execution. They act like it is cause for celebration. They even go as far as saying that an execution would give them pleasure.

And they go out of their way to make it known that they never have and never will feel sorry for a condemned killer. Never.

Hmm. I have never heard of a condemned killer wanting anybody’s sympathy anyway. I have never heard of a defender of a condemned killer calling for sympathy. The fact that those who relish the death penalty go out of their way to make it known that they don’t feel sorry for the condemned shows how irrational their thinking is. Sympathy is irrelevant.

What is not irrelevant is mercy. And compassion. And empathy.

What is not irrelevant is humility.

What is not irrelevant is forgiving.

What is not irrelevant is love. Christ-like love. Nails-driven-in-your-sinless hands-so-that-sinners-can-be-forgiven love.

Capital punishment applied with mercy, compassion, empathy, humility, forgiveness and Christ-like love would be the death penalty.

But we don’t have a death penalty. We have a murder penalty.

[/quote]

 

[Simonline]

In a previous post you said people who are against the death penalty were ignorant and had a mindless attitude. Now you are saying anyone who disagrees with you on this topic is treating the Messiah with contempt? As if calling people stupid and bad makes you right and them wrong, on the contrary it makes people less prone to listen. Why do people always resort to insults when their arguments fall apart?

I am not a good debater but I have read some very strong biblically sound arguments against the death penalty and very little in defence of it but secular arguments and some completely illogical arguments. The only strong argument is old testament scripture but now I find even the jewish scholars who study thoroughly only follow the old testament don’t support it.

Excuse me?! I did NOT say 'anyone who disagrees with me is treating the Messiah with contempt'?! You are deceitfully twisting what I have said and trying to put words in my mouth so I'll thank you not to come the sanctimonious 'holier than thou' attitude with me?!

I implied that you are guilty of treating the Messiah with contempt by deliberately ignoring and manipulating the Scriptures in order to try and justify your own theological presupposition that capital punishment is 'anti-Biblical', 'anti-Christian' and 'just plain wrong'.

As I have already shown (Q.E.D.), such a position as yours cannot be substantiated on the basis of the Scriptures and is postulated solely on the basis of either raw emotion, secular humanism or (as in your case) the deceitful manipulation of the Scriptures.

Unlike yours, my argument has far from 'fallen apart'. It is actually based upon what the Scriptures do say rather than the usual 'anti-capital punishment' arguments either from silence, emotion or out of context.

With respect, based on your arguments on this thread alone, I don't think you're competent enough to determine what is 'Biblically sound' and what is not 'Biblically sound' (N.B. it isn't just what agrees with one's own personal theological presuppositions), since your argument against capital punishment is anything but 'Biblically sound' coupled with the fact that you are totally ignoring my argument that is actually Biblically sound (and the fact that, by your own admission, you are not skilled in debating, does not entitle you to do so).

The whole point of these forums is to come to a topic with an open mind and heart and with a willingness to concede that, in the event that someone can demonstrate a better argument (rather than a more bombastic or popular one) for an opposing view to that of your own, one's own argument and point of view could actually be wrong?!

I am quite willing to concede that capital punishment is wrong in principle as well as practice if someone can show me from the Scriptures in their original (correct) contexts that that is the case, but I have yet to come accross anyone who can do that, since all the evidence to date is that all the 'anti-capital punishment' arguments are Scripturally unsound and since the Truth (rather than emotionalism or humanism) is the only basis for such an argument then, by definition, that makes all 'anti-capital punishment on principle' arguments false?! This is why, for example, I am opposed to Amnesty International's stance on capital punishment because it is based on a false humanistic valuation of human life.

I can assure you that my arguments are definitely NOT secular or illogical (as you would discover if you bothered to honestly consider them).

The only 'strong argument' is that based on the whole Bible and not just the Old Testament, since "ALL Scripture is Divinely inspired" (2Tim.3:16-17) and it isn't just the Old Testament that has something to say about capital punishment (as I have already demonstrated).

I'm not holding my breath though, since it has been my experience that few opponents of capital punishment actually honestly consider the opposing argument and change their stance as a result?! I honestly don't expect the majority of people on this forum in general and this thread in particular to be any different (though I'm willing to be proved wrong)?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Excellent posts!!!!

You obviously think that because those posts agree with your own theological presuppositions but objectively those posts are dishonest because the Scripture quotes are ripped out of any theological context and deceitfully used in support of an argument that is completely contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach and therefore, those posts are completely contrary to the Truth.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Excellent post!!!

Same again. AquaFINEa's argument (like all other 'anti-capital punishment' arguments) is irrelevant because he/she is still ignoring what the whole Bible actually does say about capital punishment?!

As for the second argument, it simply is not true that all supporters of capital punishment are 'unfeeling, uncaring sadistic 'sub-human' monsters'?! Anyway, the entire argument is also irrelevant because it is based exclusively on the subjective opinion of one human being instead of the objective Truth of the Word of God, in other words, the argument totally ignores all that God has already said on the subject of capital punishment (does the author of this spurrious argument also think that God is an 'unfeeling, uncaring sadistic 'sub-Divine' monster' for supporting capital punishment)?!

Any and all arguments that ignore the objective evidence of Biblical Truth are, by definition, invalid and false.

Simonline.

 

[WalksWithChrist]

This thread has become a train wreck. I wish the moderators would actually moderate this one.

*unsubscribing*

 

[Girly3302]

You obviously think that because those posts agree with your own theological presuppositions but objectively those posts are dishonest because the Scripture quotes are ripped out of any theological context and deceitfully used in support of an argument that is completely contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach and therefore, those posts are completely contrary to the Truth.

Simonline.

 

[Girly3302]

You obviously think that because those posts agree with your own theological presuppositions but objectively those posts are dishonest because the Scripture quotes are ripped out of any theological context and deceitfully used in support of an argument that is completely contrary to what the Scriptures actually teach and therefore, those posts are completely contrary to the Truth.

Simonline.

As I said you seem to be implying that anyone who disagrees with you is treating the Messiah with contempt, dishonest, and deceitful. Do you actually think that your interpretation is infallible and anyone who has a different interpretation is dishonest?
You say when Jesus was giving the sermon on the mount that it was only for his present disciples. I think he was talking to everyone when he said an eye for and eye was no more. Does that make me and other Christians who believe his words dishonest and twisting scripture? I admit my theological knowledge is weak but I can recognize a discerning spirit. I don’t have much to offer but I suggest you pray for discernment and listen to more mature Christians like the ones I quoted on this matter. They seem to walk in the spirit.
God bless you.