Do you believe in hell?

[Sketcher]

From my many many pages and time of researching I've decided I'm a believer in a form of "Christian Universalism", or in other words, the view that all human beings and all fallen creatures will ultimately be restored to right relationship with God in Heaven through a temporary "hell" similar to the one believed by Judaism followers. So this thread has helped a bit. Thanks.

If that's the case, why did Jesus die and rise again, if people were just going to eventually get it?

 

[Jothman]

If that's the case, why did Jesus die and rise again, if people were just going to eventually get it?

To fulfill the prophecies for one and to repent for EVERYONE'S SINS.


It all depends on your interpretation of the bible. You can look at those and refuse to acknowledge, or "ignore" these as proof of the opposite of what you say:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 10:28 "Jesus answered, "I give them(my sheep/listeners/believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

John 11:40 ""Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

John 14:1-4 ""Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Hebrews 12:28 "Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe"

1 Peter 1:9 "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
　

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. "

And you know no one completely masters repentance(stops sinning), so you believe in a cutoff line for God's forgiveness? Remember:

Romans 3:23 "There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for allhave sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But:
Romans 3:24 "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

Or, I can mention the whole argument of there being no directly translatable place of "Catholic Hell"(so to speak) in any bible dating as little back as a couple hundred years ago all the way till their first writings.

Or, I can suggest that those are empty "scare threats" to force people into doing what is right instead of freely choosing. As when a father or mother says "I'll kill you", but loves you way too much to actually do it.

Or, I can tell you that the Jews were never taught of an eternal hell, why would God's chosen people not be told about a place where they would be eternally tortured? That doesn't sound right to me.

Your views are not 100% correct, they are just views/interpretation like everyone else's. And I'm saying this as a very faithful practicing Christian. I just don't see how an eternal hell is plausible. Do you really expect our judger (Jesus), the man who healed countless sinners, preached endless forgiveness, endless love, endless kindness, helped countless people, never personally turned away anyone that asked for his help, will send countless people to an eternal fiery torturous hell? You know how unbelievable and hypocritical that sounds? I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it, I can't fathom it occurring. And if it does occur, I can't foresee anything more than a small portion of people going there, no one logically deserves eternal punishment, and it's completely contradictory to Jesus's life living suggestions.

 

[Sketcher]

To fulfill the prophecies for one and to repent for EVERYONE'S SINS.

Jesus doesn't repent for anyone's sins. Do you know what "repent" means?

It all depends on your interpretation of the bible. You can look at those and refuse to acknowledge, or "ignore" these as proof of the opposite of what you say:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 10:28 "Jesus answered, "I give them(my sheep/listeners/believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

John 11:40 ""Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?"

John 14:1-4 ""Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Hebrews 12:28 "Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe"

1 Peter 1:9 "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
　

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. "

And you know no one completely masters repentance(stops sinning), so you believe in a cutoff line for God's forgiveness? Remember:

Romans 3:23 "There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for allhave sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But:
Romans 3:24 "and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

None of these disprove the verses that were posted earlier about Hell. It's not either/or, it's both/and.

Or, I can mention the whole argument of there being no directly translatable place of "Catholic Hell"(so to speak) in any bible dating as little back as a couple hundred years ago all the way till their first writings.

Being as the Church Fathers wrote about Hell, I'd say this claim has a very serious problem.

Or, I can suggest that those are empty "scare threats" to force people into doing what is right instead of freely choosing. As when a father or mother says "I'll kill you", but loves you way too much to actually do it.

Suggesting they are empty does not make them empty.

Or, I can tell you that the Jews were never taught of an eternal hell, why would God's chosen people not be told about a place where they would be eternally tortured? That doesn't sound right to me.

Why would God be obligated to tell them about that before sending the only way out of it?

Your views are not 100% correct, they are just views/interpretation like everyone else's. And I'm saying this as a very faithful practicing Christian.

Yeah, well that's just your opinion man. (Big Lebowski) - YouTube

And if it does occur, I can't foresee anything more than a small portion of people going there, no one logically deserves eternal punishment, and it's completely contradictory to Jesus's life living suggestions.

Like John 5:14?

"Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, 'See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.'"

 

[Jothman]

John 5:16 could mean a number of things. Obviously living a sinning lifestyle will take a toll on you in many ways so....



Nice Big Lebowski quote, because it is your opionion man. NOT A FACT, whether how much faith you have behind it. It's not a fact, it's a view/opinion. So don't try forcing unproven beliefs, especially with your non-sense rejections. I have my views with my reasoning, you have yours. NEITHER factually disprove the other even if your narrow mindedness thinks so and can't see the possibilities of otherwise. You talk like there is only one christian denomination, open your eyes and look around please. I don't mean to be demeaning, but seriously guy. lol

 

[Sketcher]

Nice Big Lebowski quote, because it is your opionion man. NOT A FACT, whether how much faith you have behind it. It's not a fact, it's a view/opinion. So don't try forcing unproven beliefs, especially with your non-sense rejections. I have my views with my reasoning, you have yours. NEITHER factually disprove the other even if your narrow mindedness thinks so and can't see the possibilities of otherwise. You talk like there is only one christian denomination, open your eyes and look around please. I don't mean to be demeaning, but seriously guy. lol

Do you know for a fact that what I am saying is no more than an opinion? Especially since you just said you cannot factually disprove what I am saying?

Honestly, you do not sound like someone who has read nearly as much on the subject as you are claiming. By the way, do you know what "repent" means?

 

[Jothman]

Do you know for a fact that what I am saying is no more than an opinion? Especially since you just said you cannot factually disprove what I am saying?

Honestly, you do not sound like someone who has read nearly as much on the subject as you are claiming. By the way, do you know what "repent" means?

Opinion definition= a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

And you can't factually prove anything you are saying, so.......Unless you can show me physical proof of this place of hell you are so confident about, it's nothing more than an opinion, belief, interpretation, NOT A FACT. Same as my opinion/interpreation/belief. Ok guy? It doesn't make your opinion a better one than mine, it's indifferent.

And again, stop acting so judgemental about your beliefs, they are beliefs just like anyone else's. NOT FACTS. Respect them, ignore them, but stop talking down towards people that don't agree with you, "it isn't very christian like". Again, there are countless christian denominations with different interpretations of scripture, accept and make peace with that. It's called faith for a reason.

 

[Sketcher]

Opinion definition= a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

And you can't factually prove anything you are saying, so.......Unless you can show me physical proof of this place of hell you are so confident about, it's nothing more than an opinion, belief, interpretation, NOT A FACT. Same as my opinion/interpreation/belief. Ok guy? It doesn't make your opinion a better one than mine, it's indifferent.

And again, stop acting so judgemental about your beliefs, they are beliefs just like anyone else's. NOT FACTS. Respect them, ignore them, but stop talking down towards people that don't agree with you, "it isn't very christian like". Again, there are countless christian denominations with different interpretations of scripture, accept and make peace with that. It's called faith for a reason.

I have faith, but my faith is founded on what Scripture says in context, rather than what I feel ought to be. I can justify my beliefs with Scripture. You have not shown yourself to be able to do that. While it ultimately does come down to faith, the basis for my faith, based on our interaction here is stronger because I am not discounting any Scriptural interpretation in the proper context if it seems to go against one of my preconceived notions. Scripture A says one thing, Scripture B says another, and rather than dismissing it as a contradiction, I accept them both and the logical conclusion of both of them being true. You have not shown yourself to be doing that in this thread. Your interpretation honestly appears sloppy and driven by emotionalism. If you haven't really read a lot about this topic (and it seems you have not) then just go ahead and say that rather than claiming you have read a lot. As it stands right now, you just appear to be dismissive without being able to defend your position.

 

[Jothman]

I have faith, but my faith is founded on what Scripture says in context, rather than what I feel ought to be. I can justify my beliefs with Scripture. You have not shown yourself to be able to do that. While it ultimately does come down to faith, the basis for my faith, based on our interaction here is stronger because I am not discounting any Scriptural interpretation in the proper context if it seems to go against one of my preconceived notions. Scripture A says one thing, Scripture B says another, and rather than dismissing it as a contradiction, I accept them both and the logical conclusion of both of them being true. You have not shown yourself to be doing that in this thread. Your interpretation honestly appears sloppy and driven by emotionalism. If you haven't really read a lot about this topic (and it seems you have not) then just go ahead and say that rather than claiming you have read a lot. As it stands right now, you just appear to be dismissive without being able to defend your position.

You are being dismissive of my beliefs. If you can't see a possibility that what I posted can override or nullify those . It's fine that you don't have to believe in mine, but ridiculing me with things saying I don't read the bible religously and an uninformed is false and condescending. I choose to just interpret it differently then you do. I could go back and forth with you over scripture and outside analysis, but essentially it would be a pointless back and forth because you have faith in your beliefs and I have faith in mine, while neither are physically provable to be true. But you still are being condescending and dismissive.

I'll end with you on 1 last note for this thread. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be respectful of others beliefs/interpretations of the bible, there are countless denominations/sects of christianity all with their own interpretations/rituals/etc. Respect them, but don't belittle them as "lack of knowledge or misinformed" because that is wrong in more ways than 1 and ignorance. Just because you don't agree with another's beliefs, doesn't mean they are wrong, their view/interpretation is just different. And that is exactly what is going on here, because there is no need for me to post more scripture and outside analysis to argue against your beliefs when NEITHER side is provable as fact. Thus, please stop calling others uninformed or unknowledgable on the subject. Have tolerance, judge less ignorantly, and show more kindness to others you "oppose" (I say this because you refuse to get this in your posts).

 

[Sketcher]

You are being dismissive of my beliefs. If you can't see a possibility that what I posted can override or nullify those . It's fine that you don't have to believe in mine, but ridiculing me with things saying I don't read the bible religously and an uninformed is false and condescending. I choose to just interpret it differently then you do. I could go back and forth with you over scripture and outside analysis, but essentially it would be a pointless back and forth because you have faith in your beliefs and I have faith in mine, while neither are physically provable to be true. But you still are being condescending and dismissive.

I'll end with you on 1 last note for this thread. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE be respectful of others beliefs/interpretations of the bible, there are countless denominations/sects of christianity all with their own interpretations/rituals/etc. Respect them, but don't belittle them as "lack of knowledge or misinformed" because that is wrong in more ways than 1 and ignorance. Just because you don't agree with another's beliefs, doesn't mean they are wrong, their view/interpretation is just different. And that is exactly what is going on here, because there is no need for me to post more scripture and outside analysis to argue against your beliefs when NEITHER side is provable as fact. Thus, please stop calling others uninformed or unknowledgable on the subject. Have tolerance, judge less ignorantly, and show more kindness to others you "oppose" (I say this because you refuse to get this in your posts).

Ignorant viewpoints are simply ignorant. There are positions other than mine which I can respect, and there are topics which I have no hard stance on because of good arguments on multiple sides. What you have presented is not one of them. I have already explained why. I am willing to have less negative conversations on this and other topics. But unfortunately, you are rejecting what I have to say without giving good backup for your stances, and relying on mere emotions without showing much depth.

 

[Mediate]

Do you believe in hell? Yes or no and why.

Yes and No.

I believe there is 'hell', but not in the manner that modern westerners believe.

The actuall word for 'hell' is either 'gehinnom' or 'shoel' & 'hades'.

And they are two distinct things.

Hades and shoel both mean 'grave'. Literally, the place where the body rests after death.

Then all men, at the day of judgement, rise at the resurrection in immortal bodies and become freed from human nature, and all men are judged. Each deed is rendered according to it.

'I tell you a secret truth, we shall not all die, but shall all rise immortal, changed in the blinking of an eye'.

'For I tell you, he who dies is freed from the state of sin'.

'All shall stand before God's judgement seat'.

'For christ died once for all; righteous for unrighteous'.

'For each shall be rendered according to its deeds'.

And this is where 'gehinnom', or 'hell' comes into freeing man of human nature.

It is a place of purification, where the deeds of men are met with absolute truth. Men are shown themselves 'as they are fully known' by God. God will 'sit as a refiner of gold and silver'.

And on that day, eventually, 'he shall make a covenent with his enemies' and 'he shall remember their sins no more'.

Then they, knowing all the truth of themselves, go as pure beings, void of sinful desire, onto 'Gan Eden' (the renewed Earth) in a mental state of 'heaven' (heightened mentality, or 'enlightened').

The truth is, Jesus died so that all men rise immortal. He paid the sacrifice for sin, for all men. And all men undergo the 'ageless judgement' (a judgement of eternal effect) and eventually, all bow willingly to God and live in the new Earth.

'I (God) put fothr an irrevocable (means God can't go back on it) decree; every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess'.

Rev; 'And in the end I saw all things in earth and in the sea and under the earth singing 'praise be unto God forever and ever'.

Gehinnom is a time of 'anguish'.

'Where the worm dieth not'. Where there is 'gnashing of teeth'.

Teeth, as a metaphor, denotes that which we eat with.

and eating, as a biblical metaphor, denotes the taking in of the truth.

'Eat this scroll' Said God = take in this information from Me.

So there will be a lot of chomping of teeth in that day. And it will be tireless.

But eventually everyone ends up with God.

'God, our Lifegiver, whose will is that none die (eternally), but that all come to the whole knowledge of Truth'.

The fire (the fire of God) is eternal. The truth of God is eternal. And the result of the ageless judgement is well, eternal.

But the time someone spends in 'Gehinnom', is not eternal, it's just that when they go there, they change for good.

 

[Mediate]

And in fact, it's interesting.

This concept of 'eternal torture' only seemed to come about in Christianity, and only around the time of the crusades.

Before that (and still today) Jews believed/believe, basically, what I just posted.

That life is just a journey for every person, that ends up at God.

 

[Mediate]

I mean think about it.

Everyone has sinful desire, yet God can't look upon sin. We ALL need rid of it somehow.

And also, what's the alternative belief when it's stripped down? A set of rituals?

Be baptized in water -> go to church -> sing 'praise the Lord'. YOu're saved mate .. come on.

Baptism actually, literraly means 'submerge' and 'repent' means 'undergo a change' or 'renew your mind'.

'Baptize and repent' means 'go under a change of mind'.

The point of the bible's teaching isn't 'getting to heaven 101', it's 'freeing yourself from the ways of the world' and 'learning who God is'.

God IS merciful, yet people call him the most unmerciful and hateful being to come into existence. Eternal torture? What can be worse than that?

And here Christians say 'love your enemies' and think that unltimately, God doesn't do the same!

'For God has handed all judgement to the son'.

And what did the son do at every opportunity? He taught people their errors, and forgave them.

Jesus is a very, very merciful judge. He has compassion for people, cause sin isn't just a choice, its a curse.

Even if we do turn from sins, we can NEVER get away from it in our mortal bodies. We're immersed in it. it's all around us.

'For God as imprisoned all in disobedience that he may have mercy on ALL'.

 

[Mediate]

This is my favourite verse at the minute;

'When I have wrought with you for my name's sake, then you shall know that I am the God'.

It means, 'when I have come to wrestle with your mindset for the sake of my reputation, then you'll see the real me'.

 

[Mediate]

If you see 'heaven' and 'hell' not as actualy physical places anyway.

They are the processes of mind concerning God.

'heaven' means, from the hebrew, 'heightened' or 'enlightened' and 'gehinnom' means the place of chastisement and purification, or 'anguish'.

You know like that moment when your parents explain to you why you shouldn't do something, you feel so guilty and stupid for doing it, yet so willing to change because now you know better.

That's what 'gehinnom' will be like.

 

[SeekerOfChrist94]

I personally do. If we are to be rewarded for obeying and doing good, shouldn't we be punished for disobeying and doing wrong? I'm not talking about a lake of fire and never-ending torture, but a place we go as a result of doing bad. It's like letting your kid go to the toy store if they're good and putting them in time-out if they're bad.

 

[Cearbhall]

I don't personally believe in an afterlife, but I think it's an interesting concept. I also feel that I can't be sure it doesn't exist, since I've never been dead, so I've thought about it. I think that if it exists, the afterlife allows for perfect clarity without the limitations of the body and the influences of other people, and whether this could be described as "heaven" or "hell" depends on the person's satisfaction with his or her life.

 

[takemeasIam1925]

Do you believe in hell? Yes or no and why.

Yes I do. I believe in hell because the Bible is 100% reliable