Do you agree with this statement?

[Knee V]

But I don't believe in glorifying any person at all.

God does. Man's glorification is why Christ came in the first place.

This seems to what Paul rebukes the Corinthians for.

He rebukes them for factioning in the name of a particular teacher.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Yes,

Pope Francis is accurate and true in his statement.

 

[miamited]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

Hi lionking,

It isn't fair debate to ask two questions and allow only one answer.

However, according to the the Scriptures, Jesus existed when the foundations of this realm of creation were set in place. The Scriptures declare that it was through him that all things were made. So, no, since Mary didn't come along until some 4,000 years after the creation event she is not the first cause of Jesus the Christ. She was, however, honored to be the singular woman through whom God would incarnate His Son in flesh.

As to the second, I'm not aware that there is a 'mother' church. So, I guess my answer is no to that one also. I honestly don't find anything in the Scriptures that tell of Mary starting a 'church'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

God does. Man's glorification is why Christ came in the first place.

He rebukes them for factioning in the name of a particular teacher.

Why do we not see Mary glorified in the writings of the Apostles? Why do they never mention her in prayer, song or sermon? Surely Mary is important, she is the fulfilment of Prophecy concerning the birth of Christ. But after that she isn't mentioned. Abraham is mentioned many times as well as others but no Mary. If she was to be glorified then why isn't She glorified by the Apostles?

 

[By Faith Alone]

God does. Man's glorification is why Christ came in the first place.

Glorification is more illuminated by suffering. The Mount of transfiguration featured Moses and Elijah, who were The law and prophets represented, who spoke of Him AND His sufferings. When Moses and Elijah disappeared (Jesus only) He glowed brighter than the sun. It is His SUFFERING that led to Glory. He took up HIS Cross as He asks us to take ours and not faint in persecution.

Job 23:10 But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.

Just a side bar. Carry on Mates

 

[Restoresmysoul]

1 Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”[c]

 

[By Faith Alone]

Why do we not see Mary glorified in the writings of the Apostles? Why do they never mention her in prayer, song or sermon? Surely Mary is important, she is the fulfilment of Prophecy concerning the birth of Christ. But after that she isn't mentioned. Abraham is mentioned many times as well as others but no Mary. If she was to be glorified then why isn't She glorified by the Apostles?

They knew BETTER??

 

[By Faith Alone]

1 Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”[c]

Phil 4:11-14
11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

Paul is running a race for reward in that book.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Couldn't pick a better Subject to hijack a thread with...huh?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Phil 4:11-14
11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

Paul is running a race for reward in that book.

Yes, and those words really help me in life. Praise the Lord.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Yes,

Pope Francis is accurate and true in his statement.

And just who is Pope Francis that he may be right without question? Mary was blessed AMONG women. God could have done without her. Not being disrespectful to Mary either.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And just who is Pope Francis that he may be right without question? Mary was blessed AMONG women. God could have done without her. Not being disrespectful to Mary either.

Pope Francis is a bishop in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church of God. He happens to be right on this occasion. Your post poses objections to things nobody has said. Mary is in fact the mother of Jesus the Christ the Son of God and as such she is worthy of blessing and so we give it to her.

 

[By Faith Alone]

Pope Francis is a bishop in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church of God. He happens to be right on this occasion. Your post poses objections to things nobody has said. Mary is in fact the mother of Jesus the Christ the Son of God and as such she is worthy of blessing and so we give it to her.

So. You are saying the Almighty God could not have chosen another woman? Well. I really may agree on that due to the FAMILY line, but not to elevate her into the clouds.
The Blessing is OK as long as it does not go too far in denying her being blessed AMONG women.

The church Jesus was building was the nation Israel. If you say the "apostolic church", then you must be saying the GENTILE church revealed to Paul in AD 63. Right? It can ONLY be that church which was revealed through the gentile apostle, Paul. If you are talking of the church in Matthew, He was here for ISRAEL. Is this "Mother church" the CATHOLIC church?

Just asking.

 

[Knee V]

Why do we not see Mary glorified in the writings of the Apostles? Why do they never mention her in prayer, song or sermon? Surely Mary is important, she is the fulfilment of Prophecy concerning the birth of Christ. But after that she isn't mentioned. Abraham is mentioned many times as well as others but no Mary. If she was to be glorified then why isn't She glorified by the Apostles?

So only those Old Testament folk mentioned in the New Testament will be glorified?

What does Paul mean when he says, "and whom he justified, these he also glorified."? Man's glorification is the culmination of our salvation; it is the reason we are saved.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Jesus said there are none good accept God. Mary would not be a Catholic and she would not want to be glorified. Neither would Peter. Peter would never allow a man to bow to him, never.

 

[Restoresmysoul]

So only those Old Testament folk mentioned in the New Testament will be glorified?

What does Paul mean when he says, "and whom he justified, these he also glorified."? Man's glorification is the culmination of our salvation; it is the reason we are saved.

No, of course not. I was only showing how the Apostles spoke and what they spoke of. And its God who gives glory through Christ, we don't have that right to give any one person glory. No one can glory in His presence because none are good, not one. Mary will share in the Glory of Christ as every other saint will, but if you are suggesting that Paul was glorifying Abraham then you miss the point I think. And we are all saints if we belong to Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

]So. You are saying the Almighty God could not have chosen another woman? Well. I really may agree on that due to the FAMILY line, but not to elevate her into the clouds.

The Blessing is OK as long as it does not go too far in denying her being blessed AMONG women.

The church Jesus was building was the nation Israel. If you say the "apostolic church", then you must be saying the GENTILE church revealed to Paul in AD 63. Right? It can ONLY be that church which was revealed through the gentile apostle, Paul. If you are talking of the church in Matthew, He was here for ISRAEL. Is this "Mother church" the CATHOLIC church?

Just asking.

I said that Mary is in fact the mother of Jesus the Christ the Son of God. That is sufficient to explain why Mary receives blessings from all the faithful from her day to this. Catholics cannot elevate Mary; the idea is absurd because it is God who elevated Mary and who calls on all generations to call he blessed. Luke chapter one explains this - see verses forty six to fifty six.

The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church is catholic, that means that she is not merely Jewish nor merely of the descendent of Abraham but that she is for all and of all who have true faith in Jesus Christ. The mystery of the church was revealed in Jesus Christ, why you would attribute this to saint Paul I do not know because it is obvious that saint Paul received his gospel from Jesus Christ. The Church has received the gospel from Jesus Christ through the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ and through saint Paul and any other to whom God gave the task of preaching it and of writing sacred scripture.

 

[miamited]

Pope Francis is a bishop in the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic church of God. He happens to be right on this occasion. Your post poses objections to things nobody has said. Mary is in fact the mother of Jesus the Christ the Son of God and as such she is worthy of blessing and so we give it to her.

HI mc,

Actually, Mary herself said that people would 'call her blessed', not that people would or should bless her. I agree with Mary absolutely that she was blessed of all the women who have ever lived to carry the Son of God. So, I call her blessed. However, since she is dead there isn't much I can do to bless her. If she were alive and poor I could bless her by sharing some of the bounty that God has given me. If she were alive and in need of some other sustenance I could also bless her with the abundance that God has given me, but I don't find anywhere in the Scriptures that we are taught, or can make some argument that we, the living, can bless the dead.

However, that's largely going to depend on whether one derives spiritual truth from the Scriptures or from the teachings of men.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[childofdust]

"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

Are you asking if Yeshua would have come from Mary if she were not a virgin?
If you are, I have no answer to that.

Are you asking if Mary did not exist whether YHWH would not have used someone else like, perhaps, a Virgin Stephanie?
If you are, I have no answer to that.

Or are you asking something else?

Well yes, God didn't exactly shoot a lightning bolt to the ground and Jesus was suddenly there now did he?

Well, now, here's the rub – history happened in a particular way – and we can say “look, history went like this.” Thus, if part of that event was missing, we can logically say things wouldn't have happened the way they did. Yet sometimes that detail could be a direct response to something that already existed and, thus, even if that particular detail didn't happen, some other detail would have because of the cause-and-effect nature of our universe. However, God exists outside our universe. Therefore, who is to say what God might or might not do if history were different?

God could have chosen another person if he wanted to.

That's an awful big assumption to make about a reality that doesn't exist. Do you really know the mind and heart of god to know how he would or would not have acted in different realities about which you know nothing? I don't even understand the day-to-day occurrences in my own reality sometimes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel less sure about anything when it comes to hypothetical what-ifs. I feel more sure about things that I can point to and say "there - for this reason - thus." I can point to the person Mariam who, by all accounts, was a virgin or was believed to be a virgin when she gave birth to Yeshua. Shocking to be sure. And I don't fault Joseph for his second-thoughts on the matter. And so from her came Yeshua. I don't think her virginity adds to or subtracts anything from Yeshua, but it seems to be there at the time. I don't have any reason to think the early Jewish believers were so insane or stupid that they would simply believe someone was born of a virgin if anyone made the claim. Now, whether she remained a virgin is hard to say too, but it seems likely that she did not (not that that necessarily means anything in terms of Yeshua). Because Yeshua was born from the virgin Mary, Yeshua existed to found the Church. That is what happened. That is how it happened. And that's about all I know.

 

[MoreCoffee]

HI mc,

Actually, Mary herself said that people would 'call her blessed', not that people would or should bless her. I agree with Mary absolutely that she was blessed of all the women who have ever lived to carry the Son of God. So, I call her blessed. However, since she is dead there isn't much I can do to bless her. If she were alive and poor I could bless her by sharing some of the bounty that God has given me. If she were alive and in need of some other sustenance I could also bless her with the abundance that God has given me, but I don't find anywhere in the Scriptures that we are taught, or can make some argument that we, the living, can bless the dead.

However, that's largely going to depend on whether one derives spiritual truth from the Scriptures or from the teachings of men.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Please accept my apologies for sloppy English. Mary is blessed by God and Catholics affirm her state as blessed. This was my meaning even though my words were rather sloppy.