Do you agree with this statement?

Albion · Sep 25, 2014

Kristos said:
While the lineage is important because her lineage made her who she was, the fact remains that God took flesh from Mary, and only Mary, and it was that flesh that made Him Jesus of Nazareth and not Jesus of Jerusalem or Jesus of Tyre, etc. .

Right. And as a result of that, we ought to honor her. Not a problem. The problem comes in with all the myths and legends that presume to attribute qualities and powers to her that are near to those that only God has.

Lion King · Sep 25, 2014

Kristos said:
While the lineage is important because her lineage made her who she was, the fact remains that God took flesh from Mary, and only Mary, and it was that flesh that made Him Jesus of Nazareth and not Jesus of Jerusalem or Jesus of Tyre, etc. The Son was incarnate precisely as He was, which is mystery itself and more that who He was, is the son of Mary specifically.

According to the flesh, God is the Son of David.

What does this mean to you?

Kristos · Sep 25, 2014

Lion King said:
According to the flesh, God is the Son of David.

What does this mean to you?

To me? I don't a private doctrine, so this question is meaningless. To the Orthodox I think it means exactly what I have already said. His genealogy is through David as given in the gospel.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Lion King · Sep 25, 2014

Kristos said:
To me? I don't a private doctrine, so this question is meaningless. To the Orthodox I think it means exactly what I have already said. His genealogy is through David as given in the gospel.

The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

Does the fact that God took on David's flesh make David special in your eyes?

Guess, what I'm trying to ask is; does sharing Christ's human DNA make someone special to you?

Kristos · Sep 25, 2014

Lion King said:
Does the fact that God took on David's flesh make David special in your eyes?

Again, my eyes are not really important. The Church recognizes David as "special" - one of the Holy Forefathers, King, writer of the Psalms. He is remember at Christmas time every year for this very reason.

This is getting a bit off subject.

Lion King · Sep 25, 2014

Kristos said:
Again, my eyes are not really important. The Church recognizes David as "special" - one of the Holy Forefathers, King, writer of the Psalms. He is remember at Christmas time every year for this very reason.

This is getting a bit off subject.

Why do you consider Mary to be special?

Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

Thekla · Sep 28, 2014

Lion King said:
Why do you consider Mary to be special?

Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

The two are not divided ...

Albion · Sep 28, 2014

Thekla said:
The two are not divided ...

She IS God, in other words.

Wanna think that one over?

prodromos · Sep 28, 2014

Albion said:
She IS God, in other words.

Wanna think that one over?

neither being mother to God nor being obedient to God makes Mary God.
You surely are

Albion · Sep 28, 2014

prodromos said:
neither being mother to God nor being obedient to God makes Mary God.

You surely are

Then let me clear up your confusion for you. What you responded to here was not what had been written. THAT was the following...

The two are not divided

Get it? The two are not divided, which suggests that they are the same. Nothing was said by her, or by me, about anyone being a mother or being obedient to anyone.

By the way, I don't think that Thekla believes that the two are not literally divided, so that's why I asked if she might not care to think twice about what she wrote.

mmksparbud · Sep 28, 2014

Lion King said:
Why do you consider Mary to be special?

Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

That was the question, I am assuming that this is the answer to that question:

Thekla Originally Posted by Lion King

Why do you consider Mary to be special?

Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

The two are not divided ...

I didn't think that Thekla meant that God and Mary are not divided--but that her bearing the Son and her obedience are not divided----

Kristos · Sep 29, 2014

Lion King said:
Why do you consider Mary to be special?

Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

Both as Thekla said.

The contemplation of this mystery is IMHO very important for many reasons. It brings into play a tension between God and creation, human will and divine sovereignty, even the very definition of Christ. The point isn't necessarily to answering these question - that would be a rather short contemplative exercise, but rather to explore the questions. Unfortunately, it seems to me, that many detractors in these "Marian" threads have never really attempted such contemplation and thus have difficulty understanding those who have.

Tallguy88 · Sep 29, 2014

MOD HAT ON

This thread has had some responses cleaned up. Please remember to address the content of the post and no the poster personally.

MOD HAT OFF

justinangel · Oct 24, 2014

chapmic said:
No, I don't agree with either statement. God could have chosen another person if he wanted to. Mary was a vessel for Jesus, and we all can be used to be God's vessel is his choice and there is no way any person can stop God's plans

God honours our free will. God is love. And love always involves a choice. If Mary had no choice in becoming the mother of our Lord, then God could not be love. God desires that we freely love Him and put our faith in Him when we do what He asks of us. There is no coercion in love. Nor is God coercion.

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice,
the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6, 6

The passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ was no empty formal ritual. Or do you think that his heavenly Father used him as well and regarded his body as just a vessel designed for the sake of gratifying His omnipotence?

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.
John 10, 17-18

It wasn't the Father's will to use Jesus, but that he lay down his life freely because of his love for the Father. Likewise it was God's will that Mary freely consent to be the mother of His divine Son because of her love for Him. When we freely observe the will of God solely for the sake of His love, we abide in His love. How could we if we acted strictly out of divine coercion for fear of His wrath?

"If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Fathers commandments and abide in his love."
John 15, 10

He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
1 John 4, 8

PAX

Thekla · Nov 16, 2014

Albion said:
She IS God, in other words.

Wanna think that one over?

If you read the question I responded to:
Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

then of course it is clear that the subject was Mary, and these events in her life.

I'm not sure how one confuses events and ontology ...

Albion · Nov 16, 2014

Thekla said:
If you read the question I responded to:
Is it because she bore the Son of God in her womb or is it because she obeyed the LORD?

then of course it is clear that the subject was Mary, and these events in her life.

I'm not sure how one confuses events and ontology ...

Just saying' you could have worded your answer a bit differently, Thekla. I'll try to remember hereafter that we aren't supposed to be friendly enough that we could share a little joke.

Thekla · Nov 16, 2014

Albion said:
Just saying' you could have worded your answer a bit differently, Thekla. I'll try to remember hereafter that we aren't supposed to be friendly enough that we could share a little joke.

As linguists, scientists, mathematicians, and those of a philosophical bent would note, there are potentially an infinite 'number' of ways to express anything.

What makes the way I stated the response to a particular question "suspect" in your reading ... well, who knows. The default assumptions, the framing tool ?

For sure, I missed that your response was meant in jest ...

Albion · Nov 16, 2014

Thekla said:
As linguists, scientists, mathematicians, and those of a philosophical bent would note, there are potentially an infinite 'number' of ways to express anything.

Thekla · Nov 16, 2014

Albion said:

Is that another "joke" ?

xTx · Nov 24, 2014

Lion King said:
"Without the Virgin Mary, there would be no Jesus Christ. Without the Virgin Mary there would be no Mother Church."

Yes or No?

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Do you agree with this statement?

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