Do you actually believe that a loving God will torture people in Hell forever?

[mmksparbud]

Would you please provide a quote where I say such a thing?
Have you read Romans 9 yet? You are coming across much like the people Paul addresses. Here's the passage, since you don't seem to want to read it.


But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."


Why are you such a hater of the God of the Bible? What makes you think and demand that He acts as you wish him to act. God tells us very, very clearly that He chooses and elects. Who are you to argue with His will? Why do you desperately pluck a couple verses out of their context to maintain your will when God is shining many passages for you that speak otherwise? Why do you hate God's will being greater than your own?

I am not a hater of God--I am not the one that says God has created people for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. I do not argue with God, I argue with your version of salvation! Only the "elect" get saved according to you. Only those that God has already decided will be saved, and you give no chance for them to be saved at all. You said that is their purpose to burn in hell forever. God sends us out to all the world, it says to all the world not to only those who will hear. God gives a chance for everyone to be saved, but they choose not to be. You do not give them an option, it is not their choice to follow or reject God. You say there is no free will. Everything has been predetermined. Salvation is for all who will choose it. That is the God of the bible. He offers it to everybody, the price of salvation has been paid through the cross and the choice is theirs. But you want to make God into some monster that has brought people into the world who will never have a choice in their salvation!! It doesn't say that! God knows who will and will not choose Him, but He does not force that choice on anyone!! The bible clearly says "all", "world" but you insist that it doesn't mean all or world---it says what it menas and means what it says--it may be you that hears this
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Eze_18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Mat 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

LOL, I am sure you don't see your glaring contradiction and logic fail.
If God predestined humans for adoption, what are the others predestined for? There are only two options.
Second, no one chooses God. The Bible tells that all have gone astray and each one goes his own way. All humanity chooses to flee the presence of the Holy God. It takes His work of calling and choosing for anyone to respond. See the garden with Adam and Eve as the first example.

You have an evil view of God and teach others to have that evil view. The forum rules here do not allow me to say what I feel. It is probably best I not come back! This view of God is vile and ugly. He doesn't torture forever, not does He bring into the world for the purpose of torturing for eternity.

1Co_10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[MennoSota]

I am not a hater of God--I am not the one that says God has created people for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. I do not argue with God, I argue with your version of salvation! Only the "elect" get saved according to you. Only those that God has already decided will be saved, and you give no chance for them to be saved at all. You said that is their purpose to burn in hell forever. God sends us out to all the world, it says to all the world not to only those who will hear. God gives a chance for everyone to be saved, but they choose not to be. You do not give them an option, it is not their choice to follow or reject God. You say there is no free will. Everything has been predetermined. Salvation is for all who will choose it. That is the God of the bible. He offers it to everybody, the price of salvation has been paid through the cross and the choice is theirs. But you want to make God into some monster that has brought people into the world who will never have a choice in their salvation!! It doesn't say that! God knows who will and will not choose Him, but He does not force that choice on anyone!! The bible clearly says "all", "world" but you insist that it doesn't mean all or world---it says what it menas and means what it says--it may be you that hears this
Mat_7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat_23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Eze_18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Mat 24:14 This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.





You have an evil view of God and teach others to have that evil view. The forum rules here do not allow me to say what I feel. It is probably best I not come back! This view of God is vile and ugly. He doesn't torture forever, not does He bring into the world for the purpose of torturing for eternity.

1Co_10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I have shown you God's word, in the context of the passage. You are willfully rejecting God's word in order to cling to your created opinion.
You quote verses out of context as a proof text for your pretext. That is horrible exegesis on your part.
I understand that I cannot change your mind. I rest on God's word to speak on my behalf. If you think my view is evil, then you think God's view is evil because I have done nothing but show you Ephesians and Romans to display what God clearly says.
I have asked you to show the context of your verses and you refuse. It is clear why you do so. To look at the context would force you to admit that your verses have nothing to do with salvation and thus they don't make the argument you wish them to make.
So be it. Live in denial of God's clear truth.
As for 2 Peter, thanks for showing a verse that supports my point. The "all" in this passage refers to all the elect. How do we know? Because God would be weak if he couldn't keep people from perishing. Do you also believe in universal salvation? You would have to, if the "all" means all humanity. The context, however, very clearly reveals the "all" to be the elect. Once again, thank you.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God gives a chance for everyone to be saved, but they choose not to be.

So everyone born since the cross of Christ has heard the gospel proclaimed in an easy to understand manner, in his own language, and by a skilled teacher?

You are projecting a 20/21st century western experience on the entire world. Billions have been born, lived and died without ever hearing the gospel. If your God gives everyone a fair shot at it, he's not doing a very good job. . .

The God of the Bible, however, lets none escape from his hand.

Your presuppositions are wrong, which is why you don't get this.

 

[mmksparbud]

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I know you won't see this in any way but your own way---but for others---I hope they see the real God of salvation by grace not predetermination and open the door.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."

Know Him, and Him crucified---if you do not know Him, who He is, His character, no one's theology will be of any good. We go through Jesus Christ, not because you have no choice.

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
BYE------

 

[MennoSota]

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I know you won't see this in any way but your own way---but for others---I hope they see the real God of salvation by grace not predetermination and open the door.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."

Know Him, and Him crucified---if you do not know Him, who He is, His character, no one's theology will be of any good. We go through Jesus Christ, not because you have no choice.

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
BYE------

Revelation 3:20 is about the church in Laodacia, it has nothing to do with salvation.
John 14 actually makes my point.
Romans 10 makes my point.
Romans 3 refers to the elect. Remember, Paul is writing to those who are saved, not to all humanity.
Acts 4:12 is a great verse, but it has nothing to do with free will.

How long do you intend on using one verse, here and there, as your prooftext for your pretext, out of context? Do you ever read the Bible in the context of the passage, or is that something foreign to your way of reading?

Hopefully you actually are done posting. I grow tired of poor exegesis on your part.
If you wish to believe in your own pretense rather than the Bible, so be it, but don't pretend that the Bible supports your view because that is far from the truth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

a) who was this letter addressed to?

b) is salvation mentioned anywhere in context?

 

[mmksparbud]

Yup--there comes a time to" brush the dust off your feet" and move on. You just end up saying the same things over and over basically, yes, no, yes, no, yes, no----Had to with the Adam was formed on the 3rd day post, the Christ never does come physically, only spiritually, flat earther's,.......they can quote scripture till the cows come home for their believes and it just ends up rehashing the same things over and over. No one is going to change their minds, everyone has said all they can, all the scriptures have been posted------soooooo....

 

[Bible2+]

MennoSota said in post 519:

The New Covenant is not a New Law as you mention above.

Actually, it is: The law of Christ:

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21 . . . being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ . . .

-

Jesus said:

John 14:15 ¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me . . .

-

And Jesus shows in the Sermon on the Mount how his New Covenant, Christian commandments are even stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while his New Covenant, Christian law is even stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed his disciples to work on the sabbath and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus' New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

MennoSota said in post 519:

There are no new laws to obey in order to maintain salvation.

Christ's new laws must be obeyed in order to obtain ultimate salvation. For:

Hebrews 5:9 . . . he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him . . .

Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings . . .

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath . . .

*******

MennoSota said in post 520:

Why do you teach maintaining salvation by works? You were saved by grace . . .

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Bible2+]

mmksparbud said in post 521:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9b means that God isn't willing that any of the elect perish, but that all the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us", which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing that the nonelect perish, for he purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and he gives it only to the elect. For he isn't willing that the nonelect repent (Romans 9:18-22).

God doesn't love everyone; he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known to both humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of his wrath.

--

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

mmksparbud said in post 521:

You have an evil view of God and teach others to have that evil view.

Actually, no, it is not an evil view. And note that, as mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God himself has chosen to reveal all he is (Romans 9:20-24): both a loving being (1 John 4:8, John 15:13, Matthew 26:28) and a vengeful being (Hebrews 12:29, Luke 12:49; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). We mustn't say that it is evil for God not to elect and save everyone, but to send the nonelect and unsaved into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11). For by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and his wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23).

No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isaiah 14:12-14), so important that God would never even think of not saving all of us and casting some of us into hell forever (Isaiah 14:15, Revelation 20:10,15), we must always remember that it is God's right to do whatever he wants with his creatures (Romans 9:21-23), and that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth less than nothing compared with God (Isaiah 40:17-18, Daniel 4:35). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (James 4:7-10; 1 Peter 5:6-8), pleading that he might have mercy on us sinners (Luke 18:13-14).

Satan would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject YHWH God of the Bible as evil, so that we will end up in the lake of fire forever with Satan and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:43-44). The future Antichrist, who will be empowered by Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And no doubt one of his chief blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh: 2 John 1:7.) During the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, the world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") instead (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9).

It is the ultimate proof of the humility of believers (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46) without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things. For it means that believers have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH God (Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of humanity together (Isaiah 40:17, Daniel 4:35).

*******

mmksparbud said in post 524:

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Note that Revelation 3:20 wasn't addressing unbelievers, but people who were already saved, already part of the church (Revelation 3:14,22). But after entering into initial salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), those addressed had became so lukewarm in their works (Revelation 3:15-16) that they were in danger of ultimately losing their salvation (Revelation 3:16). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30). Also, those addressed had become sinful (Revelation 3:17-18), so that they were warned that they needed to repent (Revelation 3:19). For those who have been initially saved can ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sinfulness (Hebrews 10:26-29).

So the shut door in Revelation 3:20, separating the initially-saved people from Jesus, can represent the danger they were in of ultimately losing their salvation. Their hearing Jesus' knockings, his warnings to them (Revelation 3:19,16), and their getting up to open the door to him, can then represent their repenting from their laziness and sinfulness, and entering back into an ultimately-saving relationship with Jesus.

Jesus' eating in Revelation 3:20 can represent his obedience to God the Father, his doing good works for the Father (John 4:34). The believer in Revelation 3:20 eating with Jesus can then represent that believer having real fellowship with Jesus, and God the Father, by his obedience to Jesus (John 14:21,23, John 12:26).

 

[Rick Otto]

"Initial salvation" isn't salvation in any sense.
It is a euphemism for "probation" in a workspel, not a gospel.

 

[Bible2+]

Rick Otto said in post 530:

"Initial salvation" isn't salvation in any sense.

Actually, it is. For ultimate salvation isn't possible apart from initial salvation, just as adulthood isn't possible apart from being born.

That is, initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

That is, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Rick Otto said in post 530:

It is a euphemism for "probation" in a workspel, not a gospel.

The gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

-

Also, it should always be remembered that it is impossible to believe or continue to believe all the right things apart from God's miraculous gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2) and some measure of his Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16), just as it is impossible to perform or continue to perform all the right actions as believers apart from God making it possible for believers to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if believers continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus judges the church at his 2nd coming, he will give obedient believers some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify saved people (e.g. Romans 8:30).

 

[ScottA]

Actually, it is. For ultimate salvation isn't possible apart from initial salvation, just as adulthood isn't possible apart from being born.

That is, initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

You are misrepresenting what it means to be born again of the spirit of God.

Romans 2:6-8 is not about being born again, but about the fate of those who seek "righteousness" compared to those who seek "unrighteousness."

Hebrews 3:6 is not about being born again, but about "belief" compared to "unbelief."

1Cor 9:27 is simply about the "certainty" of the salvation of those who are born again, and the "confidence" it should give us.

..."Salvation" is "life." Being "born again of the spirit of God", is "life." They are one and the same. And there is no "initial" birth in being born again. If you are born, you are born. One is either born, or he is not...on which, there is no "condition", for they have already been met in Christ.

 

[clemenslee]

There hasn't been a more damaging teaching to the character of God and to the Christian faith then the teaching: God is Love and Loves You, BUT if you do not love him and accept him, he will burn you and torture you or your loved ones in the flames of Hell for trillions and trillions and trillions of years? This is a God that is FAIR and JUST and WISE? and worthy of worship?

Does "For ever and ever" mean eternity? Its quoted over and over in the Book of Revelation alone. In the greek it simply means "Ages of the Ages". It does not give the impression of eternity, but of time that does end at one point. Also does the word torture really mean what we think of in the english, Which by most would me a state of pain or agony etc. for no apparent reason. In the original Greek it mean to Test to prove genuine. A metal worker would test Gold against a testing stone, which was black. They would strike the gold against the stone to check the genuiness of the Gold. Could it be that "Hell" is a place of testing to prove Genuine?

 

[MennoSota]

Does "For ever and ever" mean eternity? Its quoted over and over in the Book of Revelation alone. In the greek it simply means "Ages of the Ages". It does not give the impression of eternity, but of time that does end at one point. Also does the word torture really mean what we think of in the english, Which by most would me a state of pain or agony etc. for no apparent reason. In the original Greek it mean to Test to prove genuine. A metal worker would test Gold against a testing stone, which was black. They would strike the gold against the stone to check the genuiness of the Gold. Could it be that "Hell" is a place of testing to prove Genuine?

Suppose I grant you the idea that Hell is a place of testing to prove genuine.
The Bible says that their are NONE that are righteous, not even one. Hell will, therefore, prove the genuineness of our wickedness. It will prove, beyond the shadow of doubt, that God is good and just in sending sinners to Hell. It will also reveal God's immense grace if He chooses to pardon even one sinner, let alone a multitude.
All who are pardoned and invited to heaven, enter only by the shed blood of Yeshua, our Messiah. We have no merit or standing on our own. We enter solely by the mercy and grace of God. Sola Gracia.

 

[clemenslee]

Suppose I grant you the idea that Hell is a place of testing to prove genuine.
The Bible says that their are NONE that are righteous, not even one. Hell will, therefore, prove the genuineness of our wickedness. It will prove, beyond the shadow of doubt, that God is good and just in sending sinners to Hell. It will also reveal God's immense grace if He chooses to pardon even one sinner, let alone a multitude.
All who are pardoned and invited to heaven, enter only by the shed blood of Yeshua, our Messiah. We have no merit or standing on our own. We enter solely by the mercy and grace of God. Sola Gracia.

I agree that none are righteous, and its only by Gods grace that we are saved not our own doing. Its by the Blood that he shed only, that we have salvation and redemption. I can also agree that he is just in sending sinners that are not saved by the Blood of Christ to hell. But at the same time I'm not going to box God in and say that he doesn't also have the right to pardon anyone who does go there by his Mercy and Grace. Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;. Does "Every" mean every or not? I guess I'm trying to say: I don't believe in universelism as in there is no Hell or punishment. But at the same time, If Hell does have a ending point and is not for eternity, then who am I to say God cannot redeem them as well.

 

[MennoSota]

I agree that none are righteous, and its only by Gods grace that we are saved not our own doing. Its by the Blood that he shed only, that we have salvation and redemption. I can also agree that he is just in sending sinners that are not saved by the Blood of Christ to hell. But at the same time I'm not going to box God in and say that he doesn't also have the right to pardon anyone who does go there by his Mercy and Grace. Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;. Does "Every" mean every or not? I guess I'm trying to say: I don't believe in universelism as in there is no Hell or punishment. But at the same time, If Hell does have a ending point and is not for eternity, then who am I to say God cannot redeem them as well.

Who could ever box God in?

I simply do not see any second chances given when God makes His just judgment. I will not argue for something that God's word does not present as a reality.

 

[Bible2+]

clemenslee said in post 535:

If Hell does have a ending point and is not for eternity, then who am I to say God cannot redeem them as well.

Note that in Matthew 25:46, in the original Greek the same word (aionios: G0166) is used to refer to the "everlasting" punishment of the unsaved as is used to refer to the "eternal" life of the saved. So to claim (as is sometimes done) that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved can't be everlasting, but must be only temporary, would suggest that the eternal life of the saved can't be everlasting either, but must also be temporary. So trying to give everyone the assurance that they will eventually obtain eternal life only ends up removing from everyone, even the saved, the assurance that eternal life is truly eternal.

Also, it is by the fear of God that people depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6, Proverbs 3:7, Proverbs 14:27). So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved (Mathew 25:46, Mark 9:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15) can't be everlasting, but must be only temporary, is very dangerous. For it could lead some believers to lose their fear of God and his ability to ultimately cast them into the eternal hell (Luke 12:5, Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:43-44) if they disobey God to the point where they ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46). For they could decide that they can handle an only-temporary punishment, and are willing to handle it, if it means that they can go ahead and live it up and enjoy all the pleasures of sin without repentance for the rest of their lives.

So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved can't be everlasting could cause some believers to actually suffer everlasting punishment, whereas they would have repented from their sins and not ultimately lost their salvation had they continued to believe that the loss of their salvation would mean their everlasting punishment.

clemenslee said in post 535:

Philippians 2:10 - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth

Philippians 2:10-11 doesn't mean that everyone will be saved, for even the unsaved will call Jesus Lord (Matthew 25:44) before they are sent away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46,41).

Even some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Rick Otto]

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I know you won't see this in any way but your own way---but for others---I hope they see the real God of salvation by grace not predetermination and open the door.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.
Joh 14:7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."

Know Him, and Him crucified---if you do not know Him, who He is, His character, no one's theology will be of any good. We go through Jesus Christ, not because you have no choice.

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
BYE------

You confuse "all" to mean every individual, whereas in context, it is meant in contradistinction to "only Jews" which was the then current understanding of who salvation was for.

 

[Rick Otto]

You are misrepresenting what it means to be born again of the spirit of God.

Romans 2:6-8 is not about being born again, but about the fate of those who seek "righteousness" compared to those who seek "unrighteousness."

Hebrews 3:6 is not about being born again, but about "belief" compared to "unbelief."

1Cor 9:27 is simply about the "certainty" of the salvation of those who are born again, and the "confidence" it should give us.

..."Salvation" is "life." Being "born again of the spirit of God", is "life." They are one and the same. And there is no "initial" birth in being born again. If you are born, you are born. One is either born, or he is not...on which, there is no "condition", for they have already been met in Christ.

Thank you.

 

[clemenslee]

Note that in Matthew 25:46, in the original Greek the same word (aionios: G0166) is used to refer to the "everlasting" punishment of the unsaved as is used to refer to the "eternal" life of the saved. So to claim (as is sometimes done) that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved can't be everlasting, but must be only temporary, would suggest that the eternal life of the saved can't be everlasting either, but must also be temporary. So trying to give everyone the assurance that they will eventually obtain eternal life only ends up removing from everyone, even the saved, the assurance that eternal life is truly eternal.

Also, it is by the fear of God that people depart from evil (Proverbs 16:6, Proverbs 3:7, Proverbs 14:27). So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved (Mathew 25:46, Mark 9:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15) can't be everlasting, but must be only temporary, is very dangerous. For it could lead some believers to lose their fear of God and his ability to ultimately cast them into the eternal hell (Luke 12:5, Matthew 10:28, Mark 9:43-44) if they disobey God to the point where they ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46). For they could decide that they can handle an only-temporary punishment, and are willing to handle it, if it means that they can go ahead and live it up and enjoy all the pleasures of sin without repentance for the rest of their lives.

So claiming that the everlasting punishment of the unsaved can't be everlasting could cause some believers to actually suffer everlasting punishment, whereas they would have repented from their sins and not ultimately lost their salvation had they continued to believe that the loss of their salvation would mean their everlasting punishment.



Philippians 2:10-11 doesn't mean that everyone will be saved, for even the unsaved will call Jesus Lord (Matthew 25:44) before they are sent away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46,41).

Even some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Without getting into a Long winded debate about things, Is the heaven NOW eternal meaning Everlasting?