Do xians think atheists have a mental disorder?

[Davebuck]

No, that implies inferiority. I don't claim superiority for Christians.

Either you claim some kind of qualitative advantage or mental superiority by this statement:
'How can a child who hasn't learned to count come to understand that 2+2=4?' or you completely mistated yourself.

You used an analogy of a child not being able to count. So, one who, after hearing about these stories of Yaweh and thinks they are unlikely is unable to do what? What is the deficiency.

Look you may feel a little torn in that you know it's not nice to tell someone they are inferior in some way but don't worry about that. Perhaps that's what you really believe. Lets get to the root of that.

What if a 'god' appeared before us all and told you Yaweh didn't exist? Or what if you died and 'god' told you you had it all wrong?

He'd be lying. He wouldn't.

I'm trying to get at what is your criteria for believing something. So, even if you had proof of another god, you'd still believe the stories of Yaweh. I'll accept that. That means there is nothing that can change your belief.

I asked if you died and this Yaweh told you you had it all wrong, you said, he wouldn't. That seems so arrogant to me. By arrogant, I mean you don't seem to accept even the remote possiblilty that some of your beliefs, even some minor ones about Yaweh might be misinterpretation, through no fault of your own.

I feel I have a good understanding of why you have your beliefs and why they are unlikely to change.

I still don't know how you explain why so many reasonable people have different beliefs than your own.

 

[Pseud]

Either you claim some kind of qualitative advantage or mental superiority by this statement:
'How can a child who hasn't learned to count come to understand that 2+2=4?' or you completely mistated yourself.

You used an analogy of a child not being able to count. So, one who, after hearing about these stories of Yaweh and thinks they are unlikely is unable to do what?

I was saying that someone who has not been shown the truth doesn't believe.

What is the deficiency.
Look you may feel a little torn in that you know it's not nice to tell someone they are inferior in some way but don't worry about that. Perhaps that's what you really believe. Lets get to the root of that.

I told you earlier, that wasn't what I meant and there is absolutely no need to patronise me with statements like this one, which are in fact entirely based on your assumption. I'd appreciate it if you stop twisting my words.

I'm trying to get at what is your criteria for believing something. So, even if you had proof of another god, you'd still believe the stories of Yaweh. I'll accept that. That means there is nothing that can change your belief.

I asked if you died and this Yaweh told you you had it all wrong, you said, he wouldn't. That seems so arrogant to me. By arrogant, I mean you don't seem to accept even the remote possiblilty that some of your beliefs, even some minor ones about Yaweh might be misinterpretation, through no fault of your own.

I feel I have a good understanding of why you have your beliefs and why they are unlikely to change.

I still don't know how you explain why so many reasonable people have different beliefs than your own.

Well if he told me I had it all wrong, then it wouldn't be a slight misinterpretation!

 

[Davebuck]

I was saying that someone who has not been shown the truth doesn't believe.

Ok, so you have to teach someone about Yaweh before they can believe, right? I understand then. It's just like the fact that we aren't born with the ability to count or add but can be taught. We are born atheists so, we automatically can't believe in Yaweh or thor or jesus or Isis or any of the others unless we're taught.

Non-believers simply haven't been taught, right?

But, what about those who know the bible inside and out yet seriously doubt that it is a factual account of a deity named Yaweh?

Also, I'd say this same logic could be used to explain why some folks still don't believe in evolution. They haven't received the proper education. Evolution makes sense once you have mastered critical thinking skills and scientific methology and the basic principles of empiricism. I think I have an understanding of your position now.

I told you earlier, that wasn't what I meant and there is absolutely no need to patronise me with statements like this one, which are in fact entirely based on your assumption. I'd appreciate it if you stop twisting my words.

That wasn't my intention. You gotta admit though, you can see how the child analogy can be interpreted. But, I'm should have taken a more 'benefit of the doubt' postion.

I see know that you don't believe atheists are 'slow'. You just think they haven't had good religious education. Is that a fair assumption?

Well if he told me I had it all wrong, then it wouldn't be a slight misinterpretation!

Fair enough. But, don't you wonder if you got some of it wrong?


So, after this dialog, I think I got you figured out. If I can paraphrase: The reason many folks don't believe in Yaweh is through no fault of their own. They aren't born with the knowledge nor are the born to seek it out specifically. And even when folks encounter the bible, there is no gaurantee that it'll make any sense.

This makes me take a guess at why witnessing is necessary for your religion to survive. But, that leads to all kinds of other questions which are covered in other threads.

I'm hoping other folks put in their two cents. Is Pseud's belief inline with everyone elses?

 

[Pseud]

Ok, so you have to teach someone about Yaweh before they can believe. I understand. We aren't born with the ability to count or add but can be taught. We are born atheists so, you can't believe in Yaweh or thor or jesus or Isis or any of the others unless you are taught.

Non-believers simply haven't been taught.

But, what about those who know the bible inside and out yet seriously doubt that it is a factual account of a deity named Yaweh?

Well, I actually said shown the truth but I can expand on that by saying to know Christ is to know the truth.

That wasn't my intention. You gotta admit though, you can see how the child analogy can be interpreted. I see know that you don't believe atheists are 'slow'. You just think they haven't had good religious education. Is that a fair assumption?

Fair enough, yes I can, but I corrected you when the misinterpretation happened and still you persisted that direction. And for the last two sentances see my above comment.

Fair enough.

So, after this dialog, I think I got you figured out. The reason many folks don't believe in Yaweh is through no fault of their own. They aren't born with the knowledge nor are the born to seek it out specifically. And even when folks encounter the bible, there is no gaurantee that it'll make any sense.

This makes me take a guess at why you folks are so big into witnessing. But, it leads to all kinds of other questions but those are covered in other threads.

I'm hoping other folks put in their two cents. Is Pseud's belief inline with everyone elses?

 

[Rafael]

I'm trying to understand how most Christians perceive the many people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as Yaweh.

Everyone knows that if a person came to a shrink and said she sees ghosts all the time or that animals talk to her or that she is Joan of Ark, she'd be diagnosed with a schizoprhenic disorder.

We also would say the same for someone who doesn't think cars or other everyday objects exist. Even more relevent to my point, there are some folks who think they are fat when the are grossly underweight. They have a body imaging problem. Their beliefs do not match reality.

So, do xians think that non-believers have some type of mental disorder.

Or, do most xians understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?

Sincerely,

Dave

Having been a non-believer for quite a long period of time, I don't look back on that time as mental illness, but me doing what came natural to myself. Looking back with the proverbial 20/20 hind-sight(chuckle), rebellion, selfishness, and just plain not having a clue was my problem.

The old saying, "there but by the grace of God goes me" is a true saying. God's power of omniscience and ability to control and direct outside of the barriers of time and dimension allow Him to use everything to make His will known to man, and use even the darkness of evil to define and show forth the light of truth about Himself and us. The rules and recipe required to create life and universes is privy to His own mind, but the call of God and desire to seek Him out after the call is obviously thought to be important to Christians when they are told to carry the good news to all mankind.
I see myself in those that don't accept righteousness by Gods own sacrifice and plan as I was when I didn't, and hope the best for them - that they will not be deceived into a broad path of loss and destruction, as I was, but rather take the less traveled road that challenges us to learn Agape love which the world certainly seems to be lacking of.
The evidence of God is all around us. Not one bit of life or color perceived comes from our hand, but from Him. Each breathe taken is one given, but indeed, the pride of man is such that life and waking to the morning is enough to convince them that they are the captains and genesis of all they survey. The Bible calls it "the pride of life".
The Bible calls not being able to see the forrest for the trees as having eyes that cannot see. I would say that pride has much more to do with unbelief than mental illness. I guess it doesn't take long to lose a childlike awe of the very life we possess and the beauty of life and extreme order of creation we see all around ourselves.
More evidence? Well death isn't really as natural as we have been led to believe, and the scientist are discovering this. Another compelling evidnece is the histoory of God's chosen messengers, the Jews and the supposed 10 lost tribes. If a person is inclined to prove God and seek Him without slothfulness, they will discover that the prophecies are very accurate concerning Jerusalem and the nations of power that have had influence over her throughout the centuries of time. Even today, this is playing out before our eyes and the prophecies are fulfilled at a quickening rate as the enemies and powers choose sides in the Middle East where Israel has returned as prophecied some 2 to 3 thousand years ago by many different prophet who lived at different times, but were in agreement.
If a person wants truth, they have to check out their heritage as men too, and not just rely upon science, which is actually a friend to Christianity when applied without theory. We are getting better at putting names to things already created, just as Adam gave names to all the animals while in the garden. He has time to do that before Eve showed up (chuckle again).

This is how this Christian thinks. I can't speak for others, but I hope this helps you understand how.

 

[Davebuck]

Well, I actually said shown the truth but I can expand on that by saying to know Christ is to know the truth.



Fair enough, yes I can, but I corrected you when the misinterpretation happened and still you persisted that direction. And for the last two sentances see my above comment.

"To know Christ is to know the truth." That may be untrue. I mean, it's not reasonable or logical to just believe it without any evidence. Secondly, it isn't a logical statement. Many folks claim to know other gods and 'know the truth'.

And, most importantly, I'm also saying that the statement has no meaning from a grammatical point of view. It is unclear at best. I'm sure it doesn't mean, 'to know jesus is to be omniscient'. So, how much truth does one know if they 'know jesus'. I'd wager that all it means when someone says it is that you believe you 'know Jesus'. Another explanation is that you interpret your meditations as 'a relationship with jesus'.

I mean, what if someone sincerely says, 'to know Budha is to know the truth'. How would you interpret that?

 

[Davebuck]

Having been a non-believer for quite a long period of time, I don't look back on that time as mental illness, but me doing what came natural to myself. Looking back with the proverbial 20/20 hind-sight(chuckle), rebellion, selfishness, and just plain not having a clue was my problem).

Raphe, Do you think this is the explanation for the majority of folks who have doubts about Yaweh?

I suspect that you would only apply this reason atheists and not to believers of all the other gods besides Yaweh. Is that correct?

What do you think Yaweh decided to do with the non-believers he created? and, why do you think it wouldn't be more fair for this Yaweh to come visit in a clearly discernable form? Why all this covert stuff?

 

[Rafael]

Raphe, Do you think this is the explanation for the majority of folks who have doubts about Yaweh?

I suspect that you would only apply this reason atheists and not to believers of all the other gods besides Yaweh. Is that correct?

What do you think Yaweh decided to do with the non-believers he created? and, why do you think it wouldn't be more fair for this Yaweh to come visit in a clearly discernable form? Why all this covert stuff?

First question - no. Second question - no.

Being able to not just be limited to linear thought and not trapped in a world of time and death, Yaweh sees the begining from the end and is able to use all things that He created in a order that pleases His self. His purpose is fellowship and to be known as He knows. To do this, He had to create a contrast to His light of being in order to be perceived, but will not suffer it forever.
Why be caught in the same old small limited station and dimension of sure death, when the spiritual dimension and eternity are not only able to be imagined, but are becoming more probable with each day of discovery. Open your eyes and see, my friend.
Every day new things are discovered about the possibility of more than the three dimensions and specualtions of what they may be; time, considered a probable fourth, and nine required, so far, for any of the unified theory mathematics to work in the string theory. I mentioned the current events already, but you are going to tell God how to develope faith and character in His elect, run His universe, and get the fellowship He desires because you have folded your arms and said, "so, show yourself", while you reside inside of Him and have the life He has given. Well, others will seek and knock on the door till it opens for them, and be grateful for the testimony He has given them and the blood of the lamb, His Son, which is the only plan He had from the begining to be known, gather His people for fellowship that have His image and have learned from His character, and then go on to things we may not have words for yet.
Have you noticed the rich and productive imaginations of a child and how, as they grow older and "know" more about the world, they lose this imagination and become dogmatic and stiff in their knowledge? Well, God gives us these imaginations and many of the imaginations of science fiction writers of the past are science fact today. Nothing good imagined is even close to what God has in store for those that love Him, and He gives us imaginations to make for interesting fellowship when the harvest is finished and done. Evil imaginations are stuck in the mud, death, and corruption of this world and its curse of death and need to be saved from it. My imaginations about God are exciting. I don't see any of them as silly or even close to being as wonderful as what He is capable of. Again, just look around yourself with eyes that see the awesome power, beauty, and order that is in His creation, and you will see that He is not covert at all in this reality, but beyond even our best efforts to understand and emulate any of the His creation of life or processes of order. I can't wait to see Him peel the sky back like a scroll and return, as I'll be glad to see Him and expect Him soon - maybe in my lifetime, although time is of no importance to eternity. You will find that most Christians just want to share, gratefully, what has been given to themselves at great cost, and instead of them being narrow minded, as I suspect those who don't believe think we are, our minds and spirits are set free from the grasp of the narrow mindedness of this dimension and world and its death. As Jesus said, Himself, "if the Son shall make you free, you are free indeed". (John 8:38)..

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him

 

[jones_of_pbf]

Sorry I'm late, but I had to work.
One other thing that makes me think it's a choice.
The devil was in the presence of God every day.
He knew for a fact that godhood is unattainable.
He still tried to throw down God.
He did this because he made a choice.
Also, I want to make it clear that I am not trying to force you to agree with me.

 

[Davebuck]

Sorry I'm late, but I had to work.
One other thing that makes me think it's a choice.
The devil was in the presence of God every day.
He knew for a fact that godhood is unattainable.
He still tried to throw down God.
He did this because he made a choice.
Also, I want to make it clear that I am not trying to force you to agree with me.

But this devil guy believes in Yaweh, right? He just chooses to disobey. So, this devil fellow isn't an atheist. I'm talking about folks who doubt these stories about Yaweh. These folks are similar to you because you doubt the stories of other gods.

My position is, it's not a choice to believe or not to believe. I can't believe in thor any more than I can believe this stuff about Yaweh or a devil. These old scriptures are really the only evidence for Yaweh in particular. And, that's just not enough to convince me. But, it's not that I choose not to believe. I'm simply not convinced.

But, I believe that I got a cup of coffee on my table. I could not believe otherwise even if I tried. It's not a choice. Do you agree?

 

[Davebuck]

First question - no. Second question - no.

Being able to not just be limited to linear thought and not trapped in a world of time and death, Yaweh sees the begining from the end and is able to use all things that He created in a order that pleases His self.

Yeah, I get it, you believe in an all powerful god named Yaweh. But, what about those who don't believe this? How do explain their disbelief?


His purpose is fellowship and to be known as He knows. To do this, He had to create a contrast to His light of being in order to be perceived, but will not suffer it forever.

I'd be able to 'perceive' this Yaweh just fine if he just appears to all of us, talks, shows us some crazy tricks and all that. That is simply the honest way to do it. I mean, that's how I'd make folks believe I existed.

Why be caught in the same old small limited station and dimension of sure death, when the spiritual dimension and eternity are not only able to be imagined, but are becoming more probable with each day of discovery. Open your eyes and see, my friend.

My eyes are open. I learn more and more each day and the likelihood of there being some vengeful/all-loving god named Yaweh becomes less and less. Study any other religions or scriptures and you'll discover other myths that are as equally vague or convoluted as yours.

Every day new things are discovered about the possibility of more than the three dimensions and specualtions of what they may be; time, considered a probable fourth, and nine required, so far, for any of the unified theory mathematics to work in the string theory.

And many take these as non-supernatural explanations for how the world works. Yaweh scriptures never mentioned all these dimentions. (Yaweh scriptures even slowed down science many times but so did other religons).

I mentioned the current events already, but you are going to tell God how to develope faith and character in His elect, run His universe, and get the fellowship He desires because you have folded your arms and said, "so, show yourself", while you reside inside of Him and have the life He has given.

It is completely reasonable to demand that some god show him/herself if there is a requirement to believe. This is basic criteria for belief.

Well, others will seek and knock on the door till it opens for them, and be grateful for the testimony He has given them and the blood of the lamb, His Son, which is the only plan He had from the begining to be known, gather His people for fellowship that have His image and have learned from His character, and then go on to things we may not have words for yet.

There are other scriptures of other religions that tell of even greater sacrifices than jesus dying. Heck, Yaweh imposed much harsher penalties on millions of other folks than you claim he did to his son.

Have you noticed the rich and productive imaginations of a child and how, as they grow older and "know" more about the world, they lose this imagination and become dogmatic and stiff in their knowledge? Well, God gives us these imaginations and many of the imaginations of science fiction writers of the past are science fact today. Nothing good imagined is even close to what God has in store for those that love Him, and He gives us imaginations to make for interesting fellowship when the harvest is finished and done.

I don't know. I've heard many other religions that seem a lot nicer than yours. There are many that completely abhor violence of any kind and are nice to everything, even animals. And, how do you know this yaweh has a plan that isn't even close to what people imagine. Maybe it's only slightly better. I bet you base the belief on some dusty old scripture.


Evil imaginations are stuck in the mud, death, and corruption of this world and its curse of death and need to be saved from it.

If death is a curse, who imposed the curse? That is, who created death? Again, I could imagine a much better scenario.

My imaginations about God are exciting. I don't see any of them as silly or even close to being as wonderful as what He is capable of. Again, just look around yourself with eyes that see the awesome power, beauty, and order that is in His creation, and you will see that He is not covert at all in this reality, but beyond even our best efforts to understand and emulate any of the His creation of life or processes of order. I can't wait to see Him peel the sky back like a scroll and return, as I'll be glad to see Him and expect Him soon - maybe in my lifetime, although time is of no importance to eternity. You will find that most Christians just want to share, gratefully, what has been given to themselves at great cost, and instead of them being narrow minded, as I suspect those who don't believe think we are, our minds and spirits are set free from the grasp of the narrow mindedness of this dimension and world and its death.

how do you explain all those that read and see the same stuff as you but believe something else, often with as much ferver as you?


As Jesus said, Himself, "if the Son shall make you free, you are free indeed". (John 8:38)..

This is a circular statement and meaningless. Does it perhaps imply that no one is free unless they ask Jesus to make them free? Well, if they aren't free, how are they free to ask Jesus to make them free? or, were they free all along. It's quotes like this that, while they may appear poetic, are truly meaningless from a grammatical point of view.


Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Didn't this Yaweh guy make his wrath shown all the time? I guess he's not wrathful anymore.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Basically means: Yaweh is worthy to receive power because he had the power to create everything. Not very good writing and it makes no sense. It's circular.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Still doesn't explain why Yaweh doesn't come talk to folks face to face. I bet there is no Yaweh.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him

But, this doesn't mean that things will be wildly better as you claim. perhaps they are only slightly better than you imagine. or, maybe not better but 'different' because you haven't seen it yet.

 

[Serapha]

I'm trying to understand how most Christians perceive the many people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as Yaweh.

...

So, do xians think that non-believers have some type of mental disorder.

Or, do most xians understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?

Sincerely,

Dave

Hi there!



If you are asking me what I "think". I think everyone believes in a "god" of some sort. If not the One, True God, than a god of materialism, or a god of spirituality, or a god of humanism (self).

Since you posted that you "understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?" ....

That is where we part ways... because I don't doubt any of the accounts given in the Old or New Testament. Ninety percent of the Bible can be proven by history or archaeology. I can accept that the other 10 percent is truth since there is nothing to prove otherwise. And... as time passes, more historical findings and archaeological evidences may someday "prove" the other 10 percent.


People who don't believe in God aren't mentally disturbed, but spiritually lacking in truth.


~malaka~

 

[Davebuck]

Hi there!

Hi!

If you are asking me what I "think". I think everyone believes in a "god" of some sort. If not the One, True God, than a god of materialism, or a god of spirituality, or a god of humanism (self).

that's a very loose/broad definition of a god and perhaps, invalid. I'd say that many are spiritatual but don't believe in any god. And, many folks who are humanist don't think there is anything supernatural that dictates their beliefs. They look at evidence and use reason to come up with the best ways to be good people. No gods.

Since you posted that you "understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?" ....

That is where we part ways... because I don't doubt any of the accounts given in the Old or New Testament. Ninety percent of the Bible can be proven by history or archaeology. I can accept that the other 10 percent is truth since there is nothing to prove otherwise. And... as time passes, more historical findings and archaeological evidences may someday "prove" the other 10 percent.

Yeah, I'd disagree. I'd say the major stories (flood, creation, miracles, timeline, angels, devil, hell, supernatural events, etc..) have no historical or archeological evidence. Also, much of the bible is telling folks how they ought to live (laws, commandments, etc...) but these could very well be the writings and beliefs of men, and not some supernatural god. No evidence for the latter except for the writings themselves but that is circular reasoning.

People who don't believe in God aren't mentally disturbed, but spiritually lacking in truth.
~malaka~

What about people who believe in other gods, but not Yaweh? How do you explain that?

And, how do you explain your lack of belief in any of those 1000s of other gods that have many things written about them? Do you agree that it is reasonable for folks to be skeptical about their existence? Or, is it reasonable to say perhaps those who don't believe in them are 'spiritually lacking the truth'?

 

[SolomonVII]

I'm trying to understand how most Christians perceive the many people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as Yaweh.
..........................

So, do xians think that non-believers have some type of mental disorder.

Or, do most xians understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?

Sincerely,

Dave

I think that most athiests don't believe in a god of any kind because it doesn't fit into their current world view. Like everybody else, the plethora of stimuli- cognitive, sensory and emotive, and any other type that may come to mind- must be interpreted and filtered based on their own individual manner of making sense of the reality that is revealed to them. They do not believe in God because the idea of a god does not fit into the limitations that their world view sets for them. Any contrary data must be filtered out to maintain their own organic integrity.
Christians have similar mechanisms to filter out stimuli that would disorient their way of experiencing the world. For example, reincarnation runs contrary to our belief system, so when presented with stories of reincarnation, we either regard them as untrue, or fantasy, or remarkable coincidence, or even spirit possession and the work of the devil. We cannot regard them as true and remain true to our Christian belief. Nor can an athiest regard stories of God as true and still be an athiest.
Insanity implies that someone is not capable of processing everyday reality in a manner that allows them to become fully functioning members of their respective societies. Athiests are as capable of being fully functional as any other population in this regard.
As Christians, we have come to realize what a truly enriching experience that a relationship with God can be. The difference between being a Christian and an athiest, as I see it, is that an athiest belief system cannot afford him such a postive experience as a personal relationship with the Divine.

 

[Davebuck]

I think that most athiests don't believe in a god of any kind because it doesn't fit into their current world view. Like everybody else, the plethora of stimuli- cognitive, sensory and emotive, and any other type that may come to mind- must be interpreted and filtered based on their own individual manner of making sense of the reality that is revealed to them. They do not believe in God because the idea of a god does not fit into the limitations that their world view sets for them. Any contrary data must be filtered out to maintain their own organic integrity.
Christians have similar mechanisms to filter out stimuli that would disorient their way of experiencing the world. For example, reincarnation runs contrary to our belief system, so when presented with stories of reincarnation, we either regard them as untrue, or fantasy, or remarkable coincidence, or even spirit possession and the work of the devil. We cannot regard them as true and remain true to our Christian belief. Nor can an athiest regard stories of God as true and still be an athiest.
Insanity implies that someone is not capable of processing everyday reality in a manner that allows them to become fully functioning members of their respective societies. Athiests are as capable of being fully functional as any other population in this regard.

Thanks for the great reply! I agree and think your assessment is very valid.

The difference between being a Christian and an athiest, as I see it, is that an athiest belief system cannot afford him such a postive experience as a personal relationship with the Divine.

I disagree here in that I afford myself positive experiences all the time. I love my life and hanging with my family and friends and my work too. I love it.

I think it'd be cool if there were some supernatural beings, gods or demi-gods. Imagine playing poker or raquetball with them or getting into philisophical discussions. But, alas, there aren't any around.

My criteria for believing a spectacular claim that goes against common sense is to be given some spectacular undisputible evidence.

Other folks have a different criteria and are quicker to believe some pretty wild things with much less evidence.

 

[SolomonVII]

Thanks for the great reply! I agree and think your assessment is very valid.

and thank you for your kind words as well.

I disagree here in that I afford myself positive experiences all the time. I love my life and hanging with my family and friends and my work too. I love it.

I think it'd be cool if there were some supernatural beings, gods or demi-gods. Imagine playing poker or raquetball with them or getting into philisophical discussions. But, alas, there aren't any around.

My criteria for believing a spectacular claim that goes against common sense is to be given some spectacular undisputible evidence.

Other folks have a different criteria and are quicker to believe some pretty wild things with much less evidence.

Just to make sure that there is no misunderstanding, I am in no way implying that people who do not believe in God cannot have fulfilling lives. Speaking personally only, I would say my own acceptance of the divine into my life has enriched my own experience of life. This is not to say that my existence was a wretched and miserable affair before I lived it without the benefits of the Church.

In addition, my experience of God is not such that I am playing cards with angels with wings, or carrying on a conversation with an old guy with a white beard who occasionally zaps people in the butt with a lightning bolt when they are misbehaving. I would consider such a being to be a false idol.

When I speak of God, I am speaking of He who is the foundation of value and my own sense of worth. It is common sense for me to believe that such a foundation does exist, even without empirical proof. To understand that our lives are worth living is to implicitly agree that there is a solid foundation upon which such an understanding is based . To accept God is to accept that our lives have an intrinsic purpose. Being a member of the Church is to accepts its guidance and to accept the self-sacrifice necessary to build our society into a that proverbial 'City of God'.
Such a belief is hardly exciting or spectacular, but in my view, it is worthwhile.

 

[Davebuck]

In addition, my experience of God is not such that I am playing cards with angels with wings, or carrying on a conversation with an old guy with a white beard who occasionally zaps people in the butt with a lightning bolt when they are misbehaving. I would consider such a being to be a false idol.

When you say 'false idol', do you mean that even if you saw it and talked to it, you wouldn't believe in it? Or, do you mean that it could exist but shouldn't be worshiped or loved more than Yaweh? That is, would you not trust your senses? Or, do you believe that your bible states that no other supernatural beings could exist?

When I speak of God, I am speaking of He who is the foundation of value and my own sense of worth. It is common sense for me to believe that such a foundation does exist, even without empirical proof. To understand that our lives are worth living is to implicitly agree that there is a solid foundation upon which such an understanding is based . To accept God is to accept that our lives have an intrinsic purpose.

Just a note, I and millians of others accept that our lives have intrinsic purpose, yet we don't believe in Yaweh. I mention that because the sense of purpose in no way relies on acceptence of Yaweh or any other deity.

I suspect you understand this because you sound like you had a sense of purpose or a different 'foundation' before this.

So, to others who think life would be meaningless without the idea of a deity, it's not true. I enjoy everyday because this is the only life ya got (imo).

But, your last sentence does seem to imply that accepting Yaweh is equivelent to 'having an intrinsic purpose'. I'd say that's not true. Intrinsic is an 'internal' purpose. That means it is you and not someone else. Yaweh is not you. Folks like to say Yaweh is in them but that doesn' t mean Yaweh IS them. So, perhaps you want to restate your thought.

Edited to add: I reread your post and you were clear that you don't believe that atheist's lives are meaningless. So, maybe you mean that your life would be without meaning or purpose if you didn't have your belief. Is that what you meant?

But, I doubt that too. I bet your life would be full of meaning just like everyone else. You'd find plenty of meaning, just like I do.

 

[SolomonVII]

When you say 'false idol', do you mean that even if you saw it and talked to it, you wouldn't believe in it? Or, do you mean that it could exist but shouldn't be worshiped or loved more than Yaweh? That is, would you not trust your senses? Or, do you believe that your bible states that no other supernatural beings could exist?.

I gathered from your original reply that you found the idea of a god that would sit around playing cards is a rather childish belief. I am agreeing with you, that yes, it is a rather childish belief.

Just a note, I and millians of others accept that our lives have intrinsic purpose, yet we don't believe in Yaweh. I mention that because the sense of purpose in no way relies on acceptence of Yaweh or any other deity. .

What is the basis of that acceptance of the intrinsic purpose of live? How have you come to accept that your life has meaning and purpose? Moreover, even if your claim that millions have accepted that their lives have intrinsic meaning and purpose without God is true, it is also true that western secular society is experiencing a crisis of meaning in which more and more people are having the inner experience that their lives are devoid of meaning. And I will add that Christians are members of this society as well. The ascendancy of empirical scientific reasoning as the only criteria of truth at the expense of believing that our feelings and motivations can be rational and can lead us to truth affects us all.

But, your last sentence does seem to imply that accepting Yaweh is equivelent to 'having an intrinsic purpose'. I'd say that's not true. Intrinsic is an 'internal' purpose. That means it is you and not someone else. Yaweh is not you. Folks like to say Yaweh is in them but that doesn' t mean Yaweh IS them. So, perhaps you want to restate your thought.

Even if it is not true for you, how can you possibly make that decisioin for me?.... Oh, I guess according to your edit, you can't.

Edited to add: I reread your post and you were clear that you don't believe that atheist's lives are meaningless. So, maybe you mean that your life would be without meaning or purpose if you didn't have your belief. Is that what you meant?

But, I doubt that too. I bet your life would be full of meaning just like everyone else. You'd find plenty of meaning, just like I do.

But again, certainly an athiest can find meaning in his life and yes I do agree that purpose is intrinsic to all of human life. But in your view, what is the basis of that intrinsic purpose? How do you prove to yourself that your life has intrinsic purpose? Or more succintly, how do you demonstrate to the members of our society, christian, athiest or otherwise, that their lives do have intrinsic worth, value and meaning? I am not aware of any empirical evidence that our lives in an impersonal, elemental universe could possibly have intrinsic value. If science is to be the only yardstick by which these questions are measured, how do you know what you most definitely do know?
What is the basis for your belief that your life has a purpose and a meaning?

 

[Davebuck]

I gathered from your original reply that you found the idea of a god that would sit around playing cards is a rather childish belief. I am agreeing with you, that yes, it is a rather childish belief.

No, I didn't mean it as a belief. It was in response to a point about atheists not desiring a relationship with some kind of god. That point was false and I indicated as such by saying how I bet anyone would think it would be cool to hang out with gods all day and chit-chat or go for a vacation. But, alas, they aren't around.

What is the basis of that acceptance of the intrinsic purpose of live?

It is simple, you're alive, so live and enjoy. We each have definitions of 'live' though. For me, it means to experience as much as I can and to satisfy my curiosity (if that's possible). But, living also involves being in this very real world with other living folks. Thus, living involves respecting the rights of others to live to. If you don't, you can't expect others to respect your rights. But, bottom line is to understand our basic potentials as humans and to reach them.

How have you come to accept that your life has meaning and purpose?

Through examining life and developing my critical thinking skills.

Moreover, even if your claim that millions have accepted that their lives have intrinsic meaning and purpose without God is true, it is also true that western secular society is experiencing a crisis of meaning in which more and more people are having the inner experience that their lives are devoid of meaning.

I see no evidence that more people are in a crisis of meaning than 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 5000 years ago. The meaning of life has been the basis for novels, songs, and poetry since people began to write. It was probably the basis for all mythology and religions.

Perhaps we are more sophistaced than our ancestors and have more time to ask the question and have access to others who ask the question so you perceive it to be a crisis but I don't think it is.

 

[seebs]

I don't think atheists as a group have any kind of mental disorder. I have met people who clearly had attitude problems, but others whose experiences happened to lead them a different way.