Do xians think atheists have a mental disorder?

[Davebuck]

I'm trying to understand how most Christians perceive the many people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as Yaweh.

Everyone knows that if a person came to a shrink and said she sees ghosts all the time or that animals talk to her or that she is Joan of Ark, she'd be diagnosed with a schizoprhenic disorder.

We also would say the same for someone who doesn't think cars or other everyday objects exist. Even more relevent to my point, there are some folks who think they are fat when the are grossly underweight. They have a body imaging problem. Their beliefs do not match reality.

So, do xians think that non-believers have some type of mental disorder.

Or, do most xians understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?

Sincerely,

Dave

 

[Svt4Him]

What's a xian?

 

[jones_of_pbf]

I'm trying to understand how most Christians perceive the many people who aren't convinced that there is such a thing as Yaweh.

Everyone knows that if a person came to a shrink and said she sees ghosts all the time or that animals talk to her or that she is Joan of Ark, she'd be diagnosed with a schizoprhenic disorder.

We also would say the same for someone who doesn't think cars or other everyday objects exist. Even more relevent to my point, there are some folks who think they are fat when the are grossly underweight. They have a body imaging problem. Their beliefs do not match reality.

So, do xians think that non-believers have some type of mental disorder.

Or, do most xians understand it to be perfectly reasonable to doubt the stories of Yaweh?

Sincerely,

Dave

Personally, I don't think non believers are mental.
I am however.
Any way.
It's a choice. Nothing more, nothing less.
You either choose to believe, or choose not to.
We do think there's something wrong with not believing, but it's your choice.

 

[Davebuck]

What's a xian?

It is short for Christian. Every once and a while I run into folks who don't spell out god or christian because it offends them to see it that way. Plus, it's an abbreviation. So, I adopted xian and it became a habit. But, I can change my spelling to the full word if others prefer.

-Dave

 

[Davebuck]

Personally, I don't think non believers are mental.
I am however.
Any way.
It's a choice. Nothing more, nothing less.
You either choose to believe, or choose not to.
We do think there's something wrong with not believing, but it's your choice.

Well, I disagree. Do you think the mental patient 'chooses' to believe animals are talking to her?

Another way to look at it is this:

Suppose I told you I had an invisable mattress and I laid it over a pile of broken glass. Then I said, just flop on down here. Don't worry about the glass, the mattress will protect you. Could you 'choose' to believe me?

I'd say that you cannot choose. You either believe something, based on your knowledge of the world and previous experiences, or you don't. It's not a choice because you couldn't 'force yourself' to believe me.

Suppose I even said, "All that believe me will be given $10,000,000!" I bet I'd see all kinds of people flopping down on the glass.

But, I bet everyone, as they begin their downword flop, would be thinking "****, this is gonna hurt".

A third way to look at it is, could you personally, right now, choose not to believe in Yawah? I bet you couldn't. Sure, you could choose to stop going to church and tell people you were an atheist but I bet in the back of your mind you'd be feeling guilty because you'd still believe Yaweh is watching you. Or, right now, could you choose to believe thor exists? No way!

Nah, I think you would stop believing, not by choice, but if you continuisly saw more evidence or arguments that made you doubt the existence of Yaweh. Or, perhaps if your criteria changed for what counts as evidence or reasonable proof. Then you might stop believing. But, it wouldn't be a choice.

That's my thought experiment and analogy regarding 'choosing' to 'not' believe.

Oh, and, just to make the point more clear, if some god or demi-god appeared to all of us today and showed us all kinds of powers and explained everything clearly, and maybe showed us the history of mankind so that it explains everything we know today, then I couldn't help but believe. I couldn't choose 'not' to believe!

Do you see what I mean?

But thanks for giving me your answer. It's nice to know you don't think atheists are dillusional.

 

[Pseud]

Well, I disagree. Do you think the mental patient 'chooses' to believe animals are talking to her?

Another way to look at it is this:

Suppose I told you I had an invisable mattress and I laid it over a pile of broken glass. Then I said, just flop on down here. Don't worry about the glass, the mattress will protect you. Could you 'choose' to believe me?

I'd say that you cannot choose. You either believe something, based on your knowledge of the world and previous experiences, or you don't. It's not a choice because you couldn't 'force yourself' to believe me.

Suppose I even said, "All that believe me will be given $10,000,000!" I bet I'd see all kinds of people flopping down on the glass.

But, I bet everyone, as they begin their downword flop, would be thinking "****, this is gonna hurt".

A third way to look at it is, could you personally, right now, choose not to believe in Yawah? I bet you couldn't. Sure, you could choose to stop going to church and tell people you were an atheist but I bet in the back of your mind you'd be feeling guilty because you'd still believe Yaweh is watching you. Or, right now, could you choose to believe thor exists? No way!

Nah, I think you would stop believing, not by choice, but if you continuisly saw more evidence or arguments that made you doubt the existence of Yaweh. Or, perhaps if your criteria changed for what counts as evidence or reasonable proof. Then you might stop believing. But, it wouldn't be a choice.

That's my thought experiment and analogy regarding 'choosing' to 'not' believe.

Oh, and, just to make the point more clear, if some god or demi-god appeared to all of us today and showed us all kinds of powers and explained everything clearly, and maybe showed us the history of mankind so that it explains everything we know today, then I couldn't help but believe. I couldn't choose 'not' to believe!

Do you see what I mean?

But thanks for giving me your answer. It's nice to know you don't think atheists are dillusional.

Dude, the comparisons you make can't be applied to christianity. It doesn't work like that

 

[jones_of_pbf]

This may seem vague, but I'll try to keep it clear.
I could believe evolution, but I don't want to.
I could look at evolution, and believe only the half that sounds good, but ignore the rest.
I choose not to.
I chose to believe in, & follow, Jesus Christ.
Yes, you do take everything you know about something, into account.
But you still have a choice to make afterwards.

 

[Davebuck]

Dude, the comparisons you make can't be applied to christianity. It doesn't work like that

Why not? Can you personally choose to believe thor exists? You can't. You can read all the stuff about thor but it wouldn't lead to a belief. You couldn't 'try' to believe in thor and then just believe.

Honestly think about what you are able to 'choose' to believe. You can choose to act one way or another but your belief can't change by your will.

Just like you can't 'choose' to forget to ride a bike or to believe bikes don't exist. you have no 'choice' to do this.

That's why we have discussions because if something makes sense, it affects how a person makes decisions. It presents new evidence and all of a sudden your beliefs change, but not by choice.

And, to the original question, do you think atheists have a mental disorder?

 

[Svt4Him]

Do I think you're mental? No.

 

[Davebuck]

This may seem vague, but I'll try to keep it clear.
I could believe evolution, but I don't want to.
I could look at evolution, and believe only the half that sounds good, but ignore the rest.
I choose not to.
I chose to believe in, & follow, Jesus Christ.
Yes, you do take everything you know about something, into account.
But you still have a choice to make afterwards.

I hope you don't take my following statement as arrogant because its simple purpose is really just to get you to think about what it means to 'choose' something. Here goes:

I bet you're incorrect. Here's my rationale: I bet you have reviewed information and research and arguments regarding macro-evolution. Given what you learned, and your criteria for 'reasonable evidence', and your experience with christianity, you are unable to believe macro-evolution. You couldn't 'choose' to believe it.

OR,

you've done all this and you DO believe it but you tell us you don't believe it. That would be 'denying' a belief.

Too see what I mean, think about why you seriously doubt the existence of the god Isis. You don't choose to disbelieve. The idea is so ridiculus that you can't believe it.

Does that make sense?

 

[Pseud]

Why not? Can you personally choose to believe thor exists? You can't. You can read all the stuff about thor but it wouldn't lead to a belief. You couldn't 'try' to believe in thor and then just believe.

Honestly think about what you are able to 'choose' to believe. You can choose to act one way or another but your belief can't change by your will.

Just like you can't 'choose' to forget to ride a bike or to believe bikes don't exist. you have no 'choice' to do this.

That's why we have discussions because if something makes sense, it affects how a person makes decisions. It presents new evidence and all of a sudden your beliefs change, but not by choice.

And, to the original question, do you think atheists have a mental disorder?

You said earlier:

Well, I disagree. Do you think the mental patient 'chooses' to believe animals are talking to her?

Hardly a fair comparison. Comparing a Christian to a mental patient.

Suppose I told you I had an invisable mattress and I laid it over a pile of broken glass. Then I said, just flop on down here. Don't worry about the glass, the mattress will protect you. Could you 'choose' to believe me?

I'd say that you cannot choose. You either believe something, based on your knowledge of the world and previous experiences, or you don't. It's not a choice because you couldn't 'force yourself' to believe me.

Suppose I even said, "All that believe me will be given $10,000,000!" I bet I'd see all kinds of people flopping down on the glass.

But, I bet everyone, as they begin their downword flop, would be thinking "****, this is gonna hurt".

Again, not a fair comparison. You're a sinning mortal not a righteous God.

A third way to look at it is, could you personally, right now, choose not to believe in Yawah? I bet you couldn't. Sure, you could choose to stop going to church and tell people you were an atheist but I bet in the back of your mind you'd be feeling guilty because you'd still believe Yaweh is watching you. Or, right now, could you choose to believe thor exists? No way!

Well God does exist, so it's not really a case of choosing NOT to believe. We can no more choose NOT to believe in God than we can choose NOT to believe 2+2=4. It's a fact.

So that's why those aren't fair comparisons. Like I said, you can't compare it. It doesn't work like that. There will never be any comparison that you can use to 'bring it down to Earth', or to put it into perspective...

As for believing in Thor, no, I can't choose to believe he exists because he doesn't. I know he doesn't.

And no, I don't think atheists are atheists because they have a mental illness. I'm saddened that they don't see the actuality. The truth. The 2+2....

 

[Davebuck]

Do I think you're mental? No.

Well, the next question would be, is it completely understandable or natural to not believe in Yaweh?

 

[Davebuck]

You said earlier:



Hardly a fair comparison. Comparing a Christian to a mental patient.



Again, not a fair comparison. You're a sinning mortal not a righteous God.



Well God does exist, so it's not really a case of choosing NOT to believe. We can no more choose NOT to believe in God than we can choose NOT to believe 2+2=4. It's a fact.

So that's why those aren't fair comparisons. Like I said, you can't compare it. It doesn't work like that. There will never be any comparison that you can use to 'bring it down to Earth', or to put it into perspective...

As for believing in Thor, no, I can't choose to believe he exists because he doesn't. I know he doesn't.

And no, I don't think atheists are atheists because they have a mental illness. I'm saddened that they don't see the actuality. The truth. The 2+2....

Pseud,

Ok, you use 2+2=4 as an example. I'd say that someone could be diagnosed with a psychological dissorder or be severely mentally challanged if they believe 2+2 doesn't = 4.

Atheists, among others, don't believe Yaweh exists. Why is that? What is your explanation if it isn't due to a psychological disorder?

Secondly, I'm glad you do agree with me that it isn't a choice to believe or not to believe. I wish others would see this fact. Belief is simply the result of one's experiences, criteria of truth or evidence, and the facts that exist in the world.

I'm sure that you agree that there is some level of proof or evidence that would convince you that thor or other demi-gods existed, right. I bet it'd be something like, 'I'd need thor to come down here and talk to all of us and show us some god-like powers'. If he did that, you couldn't help but believe, right? But until then, there is no way you could believe in thor or other gods.

 

[Pseud]

Pseud,

Ok, you use 2+2=4 as an example. I'd say that someone could be diagnosed with a psychological dissorder or be severely mentally challanged if they believe 2+2 doesn't = 4.

Doesn't matter what the person believes 2+2 does = 4. Always. Forever.

Wood is hard when you touch it. Water is wet. Yahweh exists.

Atheists, among others, don't believe Yaweh exists. Why is that? What is your explanation if it isn't due to a psychological disorder?

How can a child who hasn't learned to count come to understand that 2+2=4?

(I don't mean that to be disrespectful, forget at about the nouns, focus on the meaning behind the words)

Secondly, I'm glad you do agree with me that it isn't a choice to believe or not to believe. I wish others would see this fact. Belief is simply the result of one's experiences, criteria of truth or evidence, and the facts that exist in the world.

I'm sure that you agree that there is some level of proof or evidence that would convince you that thor or other demi-gods existed, right. I bet it'd be something like, 'I'd need thor to come down here and talk to all of us and show us some god-like powers'. If he did that, you couldn't help but believe, right? But until then, there is no way you could believe in thor or other gods.

If God told me Thor existed, I'd believe in Thor. Otherwise, Thor doesn't exist.

 

[Davebuck]

Yes, you do take everything you know about something, into account.
But you still have a choice to make afterwards.

Jones,

notice that even a fellow christian doesn't agree that belief is a 'choice'. Pseud indicated that he cannot choose not to believe. He can't help but believe.

But, I understand why you think that its a choice. I would wager it is because many christians repeat over and over that it is a choice and that they choose Yaweh and jesus. But, they don't. They have been given certain arguments and information that make sense to them and they believe them. They can't stop believing them unless they are presented (or create on their own) decent arguments or reasons not to believe.

For example, a kid might believe that if he uses Yaweh's name in vain, Yaweh will smite him. Let's say the kid decides to test his theory and says Yaweh's name in vain. At first, he looks around nervous waiting for something to happen. He might even be nervous for quite some time. He may then try it many more times. Eventually, after however many tries, he no longer believes that Yaweh will smite him'.

-note, then there are beliefs you can't test like 'Yaweh will send the kid to hell'. Again, you can't 'choose' to believe them. You either: believe, think they are probably true, doubt they are true, or believe they are false. No choice in belief. Choice is for actions.

 

[Pseud]

Yeah, I agree with you. The choice comes in the acceptance of the matter.

 

[Svt4Him]

Actually 2+2 is an axiom, and there are cases where it can equal infinity.

Is it logical to look at a building and think "Wow, what a great work of evolution" or look at a painting and think "Wow, look at the way those colours appeared out of no where"? If we see laws, is that not indicitave that there was a law maker? The issue is about sin, as that's what keeps people away from God.

Dave, what are you getting at?

 

[Davebuck]

Doesn't matter what the person believes 2+2 does = 4. Always. Forever.

Well, you equate 2+2=4 with 'Yaweh exists'. 2+2 can be proven true both logically and observational. 'Yaheh exists' cannot. A person's proof for 'Yaweh exists' is no different than proof that 'Ra exists' or 'Mazda exists'. Most people agree with this.

Wood is hard when you touch it. Water is wet. Yahweh exists.

Same as above. I can see wood and there is an objective definition of hard. So, it can be tested. 'Yaweh exists' cannot be tested.

How can a child who hasn't learned to count come to understand that 2+2=4?

There really isn't any other way to take that but to presume you mean atheists are not cognitively advanced or sophisticated enough to see that 'Yaweh is real'. That does address my original question about mental disorder. Your reason is that atheists and those who believe in gods other than Yaweh are 'mentally retarded', in the clinical sense of the term, relative to believers. Is that what you mean?

(I don't mean that to be disrespectful, forget at about the nouns, focus on the meaning behind the words)

You need to express the meaning behind your words or we run the risk of misinterpretation or miscommunication.

If God told me Thor existed, I'd believe in Thor. Otherwise, Thor doesn't exist.

What if a 'god' appeared before us all and told you Yaweh didn't exist? Or what if you died and 'god' told you you had it all wrong?

Actually, I don't buy your answer because I'm sure there are tons of things you believe and none of them are because Yaweh told you to believe them.

 

[Davebuck]

Is it logical to look at a building and think "Wow, what a great work of evolution" or look at a painting and think "Wow, look at the way those colours appeared out of no where"? If we see laws, is that not indicitave that there was a law maker? The issue is about sin, as that's what keeps people away from God.

Dave, what are you getting at?

I know all about builders and painters so my first reaction when I see a building or painting is that it was made by a builder or painter. See, my experience leads me to those conclusions. But, if I see a rock or a pattern or even some complexity, I don't assume it was 'created' by some intelligent designer. It doesn't logically follow, and we also have evidence to the contrary. Studies of chaos and complexity show that many very complex processes and entities can arise from a few simple principles, just by chance.

But, your question of what am I getting at is good and to the point.

I often see posts that seem to put down atheists or agnostics and I can't understand why some folks can't see that atheists or agnostics are smart, reasonable people. So, I'm trying to get at how xians view the mulitudes of smart non-believers and resolve why they doubt the stories of Yaweh.

So, I'm finding that some folks think it is simply a choice. Other folks think that we are underdeveloped.

What are some other opinions?

 

[Pseud]

Well, you equate 2+2=4 with 'Yaweh exists'. 2+2 can be proven true both logically and observational. 'Yaheh exists' cannot. A person's proof for 'Yaweh exists' is no different than proof that 'Ra exists' or 'Mazda exists'. Most people agree with this.

Same as above. I can see wood and there is an objective definition of hard. So, it can be tested. 'Yaweh exists' cannot be tested.

There really isn't any other way to take that but to presume you mean atheists are not cognitively advanced or sophisticated enough to see that 'Yaweh is real'. That does address my original question about mental disorder. Your reason is that atheists and those who believe in gods other than Yaweh are 'mentally retarded', in the clinical sense of the term, relative to believers. Is that what you mean?

No, that implies inferiority. I don't claim superiority for Christians.

You need to express the meaning behind your words or we run the risk of misinterpretation or miscommunication.

What if a 'god' appeared before us all and told you Yaweh didn't exist? Or what if you died and 'god' told you you had it all wrong?

He'd be lying. He wouldn't.

Actually, I don't buy your answer because I'm sure there are tons of things you believe and none of them are because Yaweh told you to believe them.