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Do "works" matter?
- Thread starter Chris†opher Paul
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Following you around, huh? Harassing you by posting in the same threads you do?
That's a bit egotistical souljah. Or paranoid.
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Kirisutokyoo-shinja
Stage Ninja
Eh, despite the recent quarrel, I will still voice what I think if there is anyone still interested in this post.
I will try this from a job perspective. One proclaims "I am an architect", ok, now...here comes pay day (aka judgement day)- one's boss (God goes) so...what is your Job? One replies "I am an architect" alright, how do you know you are an architect?
One Replies: Because I have taken the necessary courses and studided the proper fields, I also have a Job at your work place do I not? Boss (God) replies: Show me your work.
Now the faith came in at "how one knows they are an architect", he knows because he took the proper courses and studied the proper fields (aka...he knows the word of God and has taken the necessary steps to become an architect "child of God" for symbolism's sake)
When he (God) says show me your work....here comes the separater.
Sure...one knows the word/text information (aka the studying of proper fields) and one has completed the required courses to qualify one for this position (aka, aquiring salvation by faith, and is instantly achieving the status "child of God") or "architect" in symbolic references.
But...does the title remain? Perhaps one are "capable" of exemplifying one's ability to maintain a position but...if the effort or proper steps are not continuously followed, status/position fails, as in anything.
Example 1: The Boss (God) has asked you the predominant question of "where are you works?" or stated: "Show me your works"
In either scenario there are two courses of action. In the first situation present, conclude that the architect is a good one and has fruits to show for it. Therefore the architect, shows his boss his designs and his buildings. In the symbolic form...now in literal terms the christian has been a faithful one and has exemplified Christ by christian actions. The Christian has works such as converting others, being a help to others, and more. The boss (God) says to the architect (christian), I see that you have performed well (well done, my good and faithful servant in the case of God) and the Boss pays the architect the money. (and God allows the Christian into the kingdom of heaven along with any rewards he has stored in heaven and not on Earth)
In the second scenario, the architect has no proof of his profession. (the christian has nothing going for him/her to indicate a christian lifestyle) The only declarations are by word of mouth.
The Boss (God) asks the preeminent question:
The architect is speechless, and can say nothing. (The Christian can show no good works, or anything that aligns itself with God in one's life whcih conformed to God's will, one is speechless and shameful)
The Boss (God) says: Get out of here! You worthless imposter! (God says: Depart from me!)
The reason for this is because the architect has the title, has the status, has the resources, has the ability to produce...but has not. $100 is pointless unless it is put to use correct? An architect with nothing to show is worthless correct? A christian who claims to be what he/she is not and has no "christ like" works to solidify their "christ likeness" is worthless to God.
Becoming saved and then living the same way as always is not a fruitful life. Nor is being a bum, then taking architect courses...becoming the valedictorian...then goes back to being a bum after attaining a degree.
If one loves God and Believe in him...one will demonstrate one's "faith"...if one has "faith" (aka...believe in the unseen, love God, and believe in him) then one will do his will...and his will is great works for one's life...now...
If one does not conform to God's will...then they are not exemplifying Christ...therefore...if one is not PRO-GOD they are indefinitely anti-GOD (lukewarm, in the case of faith without works being defined as "cold" or ANTI-GOD also) If one is not pro-God then they lack the faith God refers to, if one lacks faith...they also do not love God or believe in him...so that brings us down to..."nothing" again.
There for Works DO Matter.
I will try this from a job perspective. One proclaims "I am an architect", ok, now...here comes pay day (aka judgement day)- one's boss (God goes) so...what is your Job? One replies "I am an architect" alright, how do you know you are an architect?
One Replies: Because I have taken the necessary courses and studided the proper fields, I also have a Job at your work place do I not? Boss (God) replies: Show me your work.
Now the faith came in at "how one knows they are an architect", he knows because he took the proper courses and studied the proper fields (aka...he knows the word of God and has taken the necessary steps to become an architect "child of God" for symbolism's sake)
When he (God) says show me your work....here comes the separater.
Sure...one knows the word/text information (aka the studying of proper fields) and one has completed the required courses to qualify one for this position (aka, aquiring salvation by faith, and is instantly achieving the status "child of God") or "architect" in symbolic references.
But...does the title remain? Perhaps one are "capable" of exemplifying one's ability to maintain a position but...if the effort or proper steps are not continuously followed, status/position fails, as in anything.
Example 1: The Boss (God) has asked you the predominant question of "where are you works?" or stated: "Show me your works"
In either scenario there are two courses of action. In the first situation present, conclude that the architect is a good one and has fruits to show for it. Therefore the architect, shows his boss his designs and his buildings. In the symbolic form...now in literal terms the christian has been a faithful one and has exemplified Christ by christian actions. The Christian has works such as converting others, being a help to others, and more. The boss (God) says to the architect (christian), I see that you have performed well (well done, my good and faithful servant in the case of God) and the Boss pays the architect the money. (and God allows the Christian into the kingdom of heaven along with any rewards he has stored in heaven and not on Earth)
In the second scenario, the architect has no proof of his profession. (the christian has nothing going for him/her to indicate a christian lifestyle) The only declarations are by word of mouth.
The Boss (God) asks the preeminent question:
The architect is speechless, and can say nothing. (The Christian can show no good works, or anything that aligns itself with God in one's life whcih conformed to God's will, one is speechless and shameful)
The Boss (God) says: Get out of here! You worthless imposter! (God says: Depart from me!)
The reason for this is because the architect has the title, has the status, has the resources, has the ability to produce...but has not. $100 is pointless unless it is put to use correct? An architect with nothing to show is worthless correct? A christian who claims to be what he/she is not and has no "christ like" works to solidify their "christ likeness" is worthless to God.
Becoming saved and then living the same way as always is not a fruitful life. Nor is being a bum, then taking architect courses...becoming the valedictorian...then goes back to being a bum after attaining a degree.
If one loves God and Believe in him...one will demonstrate one's "faith"...if one has "faith" (aka...believe in the unseen, love God, and believe in him) then one will do his will...and his will is great works for one's life...now...
If one does not conform to God's will...then they are not exemplifying Christ...therefore...if one is not PRO-GOD they are indefinitely anti-GOD (lukewarm, in the case of faith without works being defined as "cold" or ANTI-GOD also) If one is not pro-God then they lack the faith God refers to, if one lacks faith...they also do not love God or believe in him...so that brings us down to..."nothing" again.
There for Works DO Matter.
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Jesus says that if you dont feed the hungry, etc, then you go to Hell. Do you really think works dont matter? If it was automatic, then why does he warn us so much about not doing works?
--
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.
Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
--
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.
Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'
Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'
He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
Amen Souljah.
Back to the original question....Do works matter?
Ofcourse
BTW....I do follow you around a lot. Your one of the "good" guys That reads the Bible like myself....what it says matters not what some think it means. Thanks for the scriptures.
Love and God Bless.
Back to the original question....Do works matter?
Ofcourse
BTW....I do follow you around a lot. Your one of the "good" guys
That reads the Bible like myself....what it says matters not what some think it means. Thanks for the scriptures.Love and God Bless.
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question Souljah,
if works matters in the way you described, how does a Christian know when he has done enough works to prove his faith or IOW know that he has qualified for heaven?
works does matter yes. but it comes after faith. it is only an outward sign that the faith within is genuine. so we are still saved by grace (God initiated it all) through faith. and then we work OUT our salvation with that faith implanted by God as a gift.
the simplest example is this: "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
where is the "work" here? Confession. Saying it out. One cant say that he is a Christian but never wanna talk abt or confess it to others. that shows his faith is dead -- not faith at all.
Do you know what this whole passage that you gave in support of your argument for works is about?
Note that He separates goats from sheep IOW non-believers and believers. In the Bible, the saved are ref to as sheep, never goats. and you cant be a sheep one moment and then turn into a goat the next.
so the condemnation in the passage is for the unbelieving. some scholars also believe that the passage addresses people of nations that did not help the Jews during the tribulation period (after the rapture) but that is another topic altogether.
anyway, the passage you posted does not support the idea that works saves or as you said "esus says that if you dont feed the hungry, etc, then you go to Hell." Jesus never said that too.
if works matters in the way you described, how does a Christian know when he has done enough works to prove his faith or IOW know that he has qualified for heaven?
works does matter yes. but it comes after faith. it is only an outward sign that the faith within is genuine. so we are still saved by grace (God initiated it all) through faith. and then we work OUT our salvation with that faith implanted by God as a gift.
the simplest example is this: "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
where is the "work" here? Confession. Saying it out. One cant say that he is a Christian but never wanna talk abt or confess it to others. that shows his faith is dead -- not faith at all.
Do you know what this whole passage that you gave in support of your argument for works is about?
Note that He separates goats from sheep IOW non-believers and believers. In the Bible, the saved are ref to as sheep, never goats. and you cant be a sheep one moment and then turn into a goat the next.
so the condemnation in the passage is for the unbelieving. some scholars also believe that the passage addresses people of nations that did not help the Jews during the tribulation period (after the rapture) but that is another topic altogether.
anyway, the passage you posted does not support the idea that works saves or as you said "esus says that if you dont feed the hungry, etc, then you go to Hell." Jesus never said that too.
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Originally posted by Messenger
Amen Souljah.
Back to the original question....Do works matter?
Ofcourse
BTW....I do follow you around a lot. Your one of the "good" guys
Love and God Bless.
Thanks man. I feel bad for them, because it does matter in the long run. "Why do you call me Lord and not do what I tell you?"
Its not like God is an accountant seeing if you did enough good works to get into Heaven. We should simply do what He tells us because He tells us to do it. And leave the judgement up to Him. Thats right, you WILL be judged.
People that think they just "believe" and say the sinners prayer and are saved are going to be in for a suprise.
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Nope, He is talking about believers not doing what He tells them to do.
"Why do you call me Lord but dont DO what I tell you to Do?"
That is directed to people calling Him Lord, ie, believers.
If you dont want to read what is plainly written, that is your option. God is not the author of confusion. It doesnt get any simplier than, "Do what I tell you to do, or else."
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Faith is not simply acknowledging that Jesus and God exsist, nor is it just believing the Jesus is teh only begotten Son of GOD who now riegns with his father in Heaven. Faith is believing and following the teachings given to us both in the O.T. and in the N.T. This means that part of Faith is sharing the good news with others, or 'works of Faith'. Faith without the works will not get you into heaven since you did not openly know the Lord in life, why should he claim to know you in death.
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I think he got it from READING and BELIEVING the BIBLE, but I might be wrong....... he could of had a good Bible teacher. Maybe he attended a Church that believes and teaches the Bible as the Final Authority for the Child of God. Who knows?
Most people who doubt their salvation do so because they they are confused by the simplicity of salvation.
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from THE SIMPLICITY that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
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Warrior-
Exactly.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
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Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Exactly.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Who is James writing to?
James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
All things in Gods word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally.
Keep in mind that God spoke the words recorded in the Bible in "sundry times and diverse manners" (Heb. 1:1): to different people at different times. Thus the Scriptures were not written only for believers in the present Church Age, they were written for believers (and unbelievers) of all the ages.
The Bible was written FOR everyone for their learning (Rom. 15:4) but not addressed TO everyone in every age for doctrine. True, every verse in the Bible applies doctrinally somewhere, but many verses found in it do not apply doctrinally today. Can you understand this?
Of course, any Bible passage can be used inspirationally in any dispensation to help teach a present truth, but doctrine is another matter.
For instance, most will agree the laws God gave to Israel through Moses do not apply doctrinally to Christians. The Israelites had strict religious, social, and dietary laws they had to comply with (Lev. ch. 1-15), but none of these laws, as laws, apply to believers today (Col. 2:14). A Jew at that time even had to have a human priest to work in his behalf towards God; today, every Christian is a priest himself (1 Peter 2:9). If one doesn't rightly divide the word of truth he can't help but wrest it, no matter how "sincere and devoted" he is.
Who is James writing to?
James 1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
All things in Gods word have spiritual application to you, but not all things have doctrinal application to you personally.
Keep in mind that God spoke the words recorded in the Bible in "sundry times and diverse manners" (Heb. 1:1): to different people at different times. Thus the Scriptures were not written only for believers in the present Church Age, they were written for believers (and unbelievers) of all the ages.
The Bible was written FOR everyone for their learning (Rom. 15:4) but not addressed TO everyone in every age for doctrine. True, every verse in the Bible applies doctrinally somewhere, but many verses found in it do not apply doctrinally today. Can you understand this?
Of course, any Bible passage can be used inspirationally in any dispensation to help teach a present truth, but doctrine is another matter.
For instance, most will agree the laws God gave to Israel through Moses do not apply doctrinally to Christians. The Israelites had strict religious, social, and dietary laws they had to comply with (Lev. ch. 1-15), but none of these laws, as laws, apply to believers today (Col. 2:14). A Jew at that time even had to have a human priest to work in his behalf towards God; today, every Christian is a priest himself (1 Peter 2:9). If one doesn't rightly divide the word of truth he can't help but wrest it, no matter how "sincere and devoted" he is.
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What basis do you have for the claim that what applied to James and the other Christians in the New Testament, no longer applies now?
Did Martin Luther receive a new Gospel from God? Of course not.
Did Martin Luther receive a new Gospel from God? Of course not.
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Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Study of Gods Holy words and rightly dividing them.
When I was saved God put me into the BODY OF CHRIST.
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
What if we later BELIEVE NOT?
My salvation is so secure even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
Study of Gods Holy words and rightly dividing them.
When I was saved God put me into the BODY OF CHRIST.
"For we are MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, of his flesh, and of his bones." Ephesians 5:30
"Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular." 1 Corinthians 12:18
What if we later BELIEVE NOT?
My salvation is so secure even if we BELIEVE NOT after we're saved, because we become part of Him (the body of Christ), ". . .yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF."
"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF." 2 Timothy 2:13
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
One way or another Works matter.
Many believe Works come as a sign of Salvation some believe they come as being a humble servant to God....regardless to how or why we have works they matter. Children of God live for God not the world.
Love and God Bless
Let your light Shine!!!
Many believe Works come as a sign of Salvation some believe they come as being a humble servant to God....regardless to how or why we have works they matter. Children of God live for God not the world.
Love and God Bless
Let your light Shine!!!
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Man, this is a blatant twisting of God's Word by taking it completely out of context.
Did you read the lines before that Jephunneh?
"This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us."
And how about a few lines later?
"Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose since it harms those who listen."
"Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation."
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Messenger
Simplicity of Life
This thread seems silly to me....
Its like Do works matter??? Do we have to have works to have salvation?
It remindes me of a child getting told to Brush their teeth....But Do I have to Mom? No don't brush them but don't come crying to me when they rot.
Regardless to wether we need works or not we should grow up and do what is right....we shouldn't need someone to make us or be told we'll lose salvation if we don't as loving humble servants of God we should live as Jesus lived and not make his life mean nothing.
Jesus lived so we would know how to live and Jesus died so we could be saved the 2 go hand in hand. Why would Jesus teach us how to live if all we needed was a simple prayer?
Love and God Bless.
Its like Do works matter??? Do we have to have works to have salvation?
It remindes me of a child getting told to Brush their teeth....But Do I have to Mom? No don't brush them but don't come crying to me when they rot.
Regardless to wether we need works or not we should grow up and do what is right....we shouldn't need someone to make us or be told we'll lose salvation if we don't as loving humble servants of God we should live as Jesus lived and not make his life mean nothing.
Jesus lived so we would know how to live and Jesus died so we could be saved the 2 go hand in hand. Why would Jesus teach us how to live if all we needed was a simple prayer?
Love and God Bless.
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