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Do we support Israel?

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Desertdancer

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Are we supposed to support Israel? I had a long discussion with someone recently. This all started over the whole Obama news about the pastor of his church saying we are at fault for many things, for several reasons including that we have supported Israel. I think what my problem in this is that I do not know any scripture from the bible to support/not support this fact. Anyone have any suggestions? any verses you know of? thanks!
 

LamorakDesGalis

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Are we supposed to support Israel? I had a long discussion with someone recently. This all started over the whole Obama news about the pastor of his church saying we are at fault for many things, for several reasons including that we have supported Israel. I think what my problem in this is that I do not know any scripture from the bible to support/not support this fact. Anyone have any suggestions? any verses you know of? thanks!

It depends on what you mean by supporting Israel. On the one hand, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East with an actual democracy. On the other, we should never turn a blind eye to injustice. Support should never be blind - and opposition should never be blind, either.

The Scripture passages used are Gen 12:3 where the LORD swore to Abraham that He would treat others according to how they treated him. Abraham is regarded as the father of the Jews:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

This idea is echoed in Gen 27:29, where Isaac blessed Jacob in a similar way. Jacob's name was later changed to Israel - and he was the father of the tribes of Israel.

Genesis 27:29 May peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you; Be master of your brothers, And may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be those who curse you, And blessed be those who bless you."

The point is that some believe God will treat others according to how they treat the people of Israel.


LDG
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Are we supposed to support Israel? I had a long discussion with someone recently. This all started over the whole Obama news about the pastor of his church saying we are at fault for many things, for several reasons including that we have supported Israel. I think what my problem in this is that I do not know any scripture from the bible to support/not support this fact. Anyone have any suggestions? any verses you know of? thanks!
The rulers over the nation of Israel are not at this time acknowleging YHWH as their God. They are, in the main, athiests and secularists and they are the enemy of YHWH. But there are among them those of the "Name" of God [who is now come in flesh of the second creation, which name is Israel] who, though they do not know their Christ/Messiah is come and that He is YHWH in flesh of second human creation [as Isaiah 59 teachs], and is, Himself, the One who gave His New Man name to Jacob as a sign of the adoption to come [for all in Adam to be redeemed by], are yet loyal to the Torah, and believe YHWH is the only true God, and that all the promises of the creator are true.

They, themselves, are being persecuted in their own nation by the non-religious Jews, and are being denied equal rights among the people of the nation, and are even made subservient to the enemies of God's name, who want to wipe that name from the face of the earth.

God's name as YHWH come in flesh is "Israel" [Isaiah 49; Genesis 32; Hosea 12:3-5], so the war against that name is from the rulers of darkness, and all who fight against the promises of God given to His namesake people are enemies of YHWH, and will not be blessed.

Christians [those who are truly born again into the name of the One Living Spirit, which is Christ], are to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and give YHWH no rest until He establishes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isa 62:6¶I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, [which] shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,Isa 62:7
And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
There will never be peace on earth until Jerusalem is established and is a praise in the earth. Maranatha!

When God raises Himself up for His own namesake people -when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled- then the world will know that YHWH is the only true God, and those who are wise will seek Him, and those who seek will find Him, in His only begotten Son.

The fact of His being the only begotten Son is missed by many people who are truly born again and yet do not understand that to be born again is to be joined to the Living Spirit of the second human being creation. Adam is the first creation human being son of God [Like 3:38], and we are all born as the seed of Adam and are born fallen because we are what he became: dead in spirit; not a son of God; cut off from access to the heavenlies' assembies of the sons of God. Adam is the first son of God of the human kind [we are all called Adam, by the Creator; Genesis 5:2, in the Hebrew] and just as Ishmael is the first son of Abram and is not the son of promise, even so Adam is the first son of God and is not the son of promise [because of the fall]. In Genesis 32, God told AbraHAm to "take now thy son, thine onlybegotten/monogenes" -which is the Greek Septuagint translation...and in the NT Jesus is called, in the Greek, the onlybegotte/monogenes son of God. This speaks to the creation of the second Man as the Living Son of God of human kind, through whose coming as second Man the worAtonement AbraHAm saw and rejoiced in, in Genesis 32, BTW, and that was over four hundred years before the Torah was given]. Psalm 118 speaks of the Day of YHWH, in which our God/EL is bound to the altar of sacrifice as our "Salvation" and as the entrance to the City of God. AbraHAm saw this, and the Psalmist saw this.

In other words, Salvation is of the Jews, and only through the return of Israel to YHWH will the world be blessed, and only when Jerusalem is established as a praise in the earth will Peace reign over all the earth. By that time of peace, many sons will be born in Adam -as seed of the first, dead in spirit human being son- who will be born again in Christ, the Living Spirit, and then they too, will be adopted sons of God, who will be part of the regeneration of the heavens and earth.


We who believe in Jesus will be part of the first harvest ingathering os the sons of God to the heavenlies, and that gathering is what we await the call for, as Psalm 50 describes; but after we are departed from the midst of the earth [ which is when we are taken to the heavenlies, to celebrate our consecration as sons/priests of God in the New Man/Firstborn's name, for the "week" of consecration celebration -which is typed in Lev 8], then YHWH begins the cleansing process to prepare the earth for the planting of the second growth crop of sons of God of earth, which harvest will be ingathered in the final harvest, at the end of the thousand year reign of peace.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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One way to test dispensationalism would be to give a nuke to Iran.
Iran was part of the Parthian empire which is spoken of in Enoch as being stirred up in the last days by the angels' released. India is also included in that kings of the east stirring against Israel who come across the dried up Euphrates against Israel. In Rev the "kings of the east" are those same whom Enoch named, The Medes and Parthians, as being stirred up.
 
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stone

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Are we supposed to support Israel? I had a long discussion with someone recently. This all started over the whole Obama news about the pastor of his church saying we are at fault for many things, for several reasons including that we have supported Israel. I think what my problem in this is that I do not know any scripture from the bible to support/not support this fact. Anyone have any suggestions? any verses you know of? thanks!

What do you think the two witnesses are doing in jerusalem? Maybe god will speak to them, "save my people"?
 
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Biblewriter

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There can be no doubt that the present nation of Israel is in rebellion against their God, and as such, is under His discipline. This discipline includes the enmity of all surrounding nations, and of the world at large.

According to Zechariah 13:8 this will eventually lead to an attack in which two-thirds of all in the land will be killed. But the next verse clearly states that God himself will bring the third part of them through "the fire" and bring them finally to faith in Himself.

So we support the hope of Israel, and remember the blessings and curses already mentioned in this thread. But that does not mean that we need to support the present government of Israel in everything they do.
 
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HolyGuardianAngels

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Are we supposed to support Israel? I had a long discussion with someone recently. This all started over the whole Obama news about the pastor of his church saying we are at fault for many things, for several reasons including that we have supported Israel. I think what my problem in this is that I do not know any scripture from the bible to support/not support this fact. Anyone have any suggestions? any verses you know of? thanks!


:wave:

Yes, but w/ :eek: TOUGH LOVE !!


Maybe EVERYBODY should get Tough Love and NOT just some . . .




Happy Easter
:angel:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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There can be no doubt that the present nation of Israel is in rebellion against their God, and as such, is under His discipline. This discipline includes the enmity of all surrounding nations, and of the world at large.
How are they in rebellion against their own God :confused:
 
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lincolngreen50

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The Jews are Gods people and Israel is their land.
Christians are grafted in with the Jewish people and we must support them.
God promised the Jewish people their own land and it was foretold in the Bible that after being scattered they would return to their land.
God has punished Israel throughout History for their transgressions against God but the Lord will never forsake them.:)
 
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Biblewriter

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How are they in rebellion against their own God :confused:
Deuteronomy 31:24And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 27For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

Hosea 7:1When I would have healed Israel, then the iniquity of Ephraim was discovered... 13Woe unto them! for they have fled from me: destruction unto them! because they have transgressed against me: though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against me. 14And they have not cried unto me with their heart, when they howled upon their beds: they assemble themselves for corn and wine, and they rebel against me. 15Though I have bound and strengthened their arms, yet do they imagine mischief against me. 16They return, but not to the most High: they are like a deceitful bow: their princes shall fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue: this shall be their derision in the land of Egypt.

There can be no doubt that the leaders of present day Israel do not even pretend to be obeying God, or even to believe in him, for that matter. And even the faithful Jews, of whom there are many there in that land, do not in truth obey Him, for they do not honor his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Biblewriter

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The Jews are Gods people and Israel is their land.
Christians are grafted in with the Jewish people and we must support them.
God promised the Jewish people their own land and it was foretold in the Bible that after being scattered they would return to their land.
God has punished Israel throughout History for their transgressions against God but the Lord will never forsake them.:)

Jeremiah 23:33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD. 34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. 37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

The promise that "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee" is made to those that obey Him. But those that forsake him will be forsaken. And no, I am not talking about the security of a believer. I am talking about the sure fate of all unbelievers, whether they are Israelites or of any other nation.

God has promised that He will eventually bring that rebellious nation to repentance. And when He does that, they will indeed be blessed. But for not, they are under discipline.
 
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Notrash

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It depends on what you mean by supporting Israel. On the one hand, Israel is the only nation in the Middle East with an actual democracy. On the other, we should never turn a blind eye to injustice. Support should never be blind - and opposition should never be blind, either.

The Scripture passages used are Gen 12:3 where the LORD swore to Abraham that He would treat others according to how they treated him. Abraham is regarded as the father of the Jews:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless those who bless you, And the one who curses you I will curse. And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

This idea is echoed in Gen 27:29, where Isaac blessed Jacob in a similar way. Jacob's name was later changed to Israel - and he was the father of the tribes of Israel.

Genesis 27:29 May peoples serve you, And nations bow down to you; Be master of your brothers, And may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be those who curse you, And blessed be those who bless you."

The point is that some believe God will treat others according to how they treat the people of Israel.

LDG

How does Pauls transferral of the Blessings of Abraham (which you mention above) to believing Gentiles alter this asessment? Gal 3 and Rom 4.

Where is it said in Daniels Chapter 7 visions that after the kingdom is given to the saints of all peoples, nations, tongues, that it is take from them and given back to a genetic descendancy?
 
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RND

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All the promises God made to Abraham are available by promise, through faith in Jesus Christ to everyone, Jew or Gentile. God never saves by law but by promise.

Abraham the Gentile

How many times have you heard someone call Abraham a Jew? And yet, it almost goes without saying that one of the most fascinating, indeed awe inspiring, glimpses into Bible prophecy can be found in the story of Abraham - the gentile. The story of Abraham is a story for anyone and everyone that places their trust in Jesus. When you examine this story of Abraham it is, in all reality, the story of the gentiles and how the gentiles are saved.

First the basics. Abraham was a direct descendant of Noah's son Shem. We know that the whole world was populated from the offspring of Noah. Shem we are told in Genesis 10:21 was father of all the children of Eber, who was the father of the Hebrew nation which simply means that Abraham was a Hebrew and not a Jew. Jews didn't come along until Abraham's great-grandson Judah began to have children of his own.

According to the Strong's Hebrew means: "a region across" which fits perfectly when we are told that Abraham was from Ur of the Chaldees in Genesis 11:31. The area of the Chaldees was located between the Tigris and Euphrates in what is commonly known as Mesopotamia. Obviously, I'm offering all this information to simply point out that Abraham was a gentile, no matter how we look at it, but that's not the fascinating part. This is. That very same promises that God gave to Abraham are available to us! In fact, those promises, which were accepted by Abraham by his faith in God are the same promises we receive from God and accept by faith.

In Romans 4 Paul asks us to consider father Abraham and that his justification, if it was through works, would have given him something to boast about - but not before God. Abraham was not saved by works. Paul tells us plainly that Abraham believed God and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. Paul goes on to explain to us that if we work then the wages we earn are not a gift but what is due to us (Romans 4:4) whereas if we trust the one who "justifies the ungodly" then our faith is reckoned for righteousness, just like Abraham (Romans 4:5). To confirm this point Paul quotes David in the Psalms (Psalms 32:1-2).

This is getting good!

Now, Paul asks rather pointedly, "How then was it (faith) reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised?" Another way we could look at this question is this, was Abraham reckoned unto God before he was "set aside" by God or after? And the answer Paul? "It was not after, but before he was circumcised." (Romans 4:10).

What a tremendous blessing this is giving us! That God accepts our faith, even before our hearts are fully circumcised (See Romans 2:28-29) just as He did for Abraham is a wonderful way to picture God building trust with us!

Paul tells us that Abraham "received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them" (Romans 4:11). What Paul is illustrating for us is that "the promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith." (Romans 4:13). No covenant, or special dispensation, but by faith. And this is exactly how we receive the promises that God makes to us! Not through the law, but by the "righteousness of faith." No covenant, or special dispensation, but by faith! Paul goes on to tells us that if those that adhere to the law are heirs, then "faith is null and the promise of God is void."

Paul tells us plainly in verse 16, "That is why it (the promise) depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants--not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,"

So the promises that God made to Abraham, that were counted to him as faith due to his righteousness are ours to claim as well! Paul tells us that, "It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification." (Romans 4:24-25).

Wow!

The very same promises God made to Abraham belong to us as well. We will be reckoned by our faith in Him that raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead! What an awesome promise and an awesome glimpse as to how this prophetic vision expressed first in the gentile Abraham is now available to those gentiles that accept the God that raised Jesus from the dead. As our faith is counted for righteousness in God so too is our faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:26).

Something that illustrates this point for us and solidifies the truth of this promise made to the gentiles is the story of the tremendous faith displayed by the centurion that led to the healing of his servant in Matthew 8:5-13.

He didn't question, he just believed. He just had faith. As a result, Jesus makes an absolutely staggering comment that regards the faith of the gentiles, "I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." Matthew 8:11-12.

The promise here is obvious. The gentiles, those from the east and from the west, will sit with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven based on their faith and trust in Jesus, the Messiah while those that do not display faith in the Messiah by placing their trust in Him will be on the outside looking in.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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How does Pauls transferral of the Blessings of Abraham (which you mention above) to believing Gentiles alter this asessment? Gal 3 and Rom 4.

The question is invalid since the Abrahamic covenant blessings were never "transferred" to believing Gentiles. The Bible states that believing Jews and believing Gentiles are co-heirs together. That does not support any kind of "transfer" or "replacement" idea. Acts 10-11 shows that new covenant promises were expanded to include the believing Gentiles. That supports the idea of co-heirs together.


Where is it said in Daniels Chapter 7 visions that after the kingdom is given to the saints of all peoples, nations, tongues, that it is take from them and given back to a genetic descendancy?

Your question does not make sense, because Daniel 7 never says a kingdom was given to the saints. Here is what it says:

Daniel 7:14 He [the Son of Man] was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Its clearly the Son of Man's kingdom...



LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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All the promises God made to Abraham are available by promise, through faith in Jesus Christ to everyone, Jew or Gentile. God never saves by law but by promise.

So where do you get the idea that anyone is saying God "saved by the law?"

No one is saying that....

All dispensationalists hold that people are saved by grace through faith, regardless of the dispensation.

LDG
 
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RND

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So where do you get the idea that anyone is saying God "saved by the law?"

No one is saying that....

All dispensationalists hold that people are saved by grace through faith, regardless of the dispensation.

LDG

The vast majority of dispensationalist that I have heard believe that the "land" of Israel belongs to Israel by "covenant" which isn't true. The land promise was to Abraham through faith, before Abraham was circumcised.

The consistent message of most dispensationalist's is that Israel must be protected in order to be attacked for Bible prophecy to be fulfilled. This is simply not the case and Paul explains the situation quite succinctly and quite clearly.

Roams 4: 13-14 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

This promise was given to Abraham by God by God's promise, not by covenant.

Genesis 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Paul tells us in Galatians that this promise was not for multiple "seeds" but for "One" seed, Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
 
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