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do we really have free will?

DamianWarS

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God knows everything, whatever happens it is because of his direct control no matter how "good" or "bad" we may judge them. God knows all things and he knows what it will take for me to do something such as perform an act of sin or be obedient to Him.

God knows that if he places an object in front of me what it will take for me to touch it or to resist touching it. Maybe I need a person I respect to physically tell me to touch it or not to touch it. Maybe I need to feel a desire toward the object and so some part of the environment is changed to allow me to desire that item... for example a glass a water on a hot day, vs a glass a water on a rainy day. Whatever it is God knows all the scenarios and how I will react in each scenario.

You may argue saying that in the end we make the choice but what happens when the environment that we make the choice in is out of our control no matter how much we think it is in our control. For example if a leaf falls from a tree, then a bird swoops down and picks up the leaf for a nest, then a cat jumps at the bird, then a car serves to misses the cat and hits a transformer, the power goes out on the street... etc... etc. Think of all the chain reactions that can occur from a little thing like the falling of a leaf. Something that small may even cause an earth quake on the other side of earth. Maybe that sounds absurd to you but God would know what it would take for something like that to happen... he would know the exact precise time for a leaf to fall and the exact precise way and spot to create a domino effect that causes a major thing.

What if one day a man is sitting on a park bench then all of a sudden catches the scent of a flower that reminds him of some happy memory that causes him to sit on the bench longer that causes him to feel happier and in the end causes him not to murder a man on the street that night out of desperation. That may sound absurd again but for someone hanging on the edge of mental stability something as little as smelling a flower may be enough to get him thinking straight again.

Well think of the billions of smells that flowers make and billions of leaves that fall or billions upon billions of small insignificant things happening around us all the time. Who controls them? We may be able to prove each item scientifically but if you are a christian than you believe at the very least God is one who pushed the first domino and God is the one who set up the dominos in the first place. And God knows the end before the beginning happened. He knows every countless scenario and what needs to be done to have them happen.

God knew what it would take for eve not to take the fruit and he knew what it would take for adam also not to take it. But even with all his knowledge he still placed the tree in the middle of the garden and allowed them to partake of anything they wanted... but maybe that day the flowers smelt a certain way or the food they normally ate tasted a little off leading them to the center of the garden where the fall of man happened.

Is there free will... or are we just pawns in a game of chess blinded by own limitations and literally just blowing in the wind as things happen.
 
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DamianWarS

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Why would God knowing how we will freely choose mean that we don't freely choose? And why if the smallest choice has a chain reaction in the world mean we don't have free will? I lost you there.

sometimes the smallest choice makes a dramatic outcome in our lives. Our lives in a sense are dictated by the choices we make. If I choose to go to a different school, or I choose to work at a different job, or I choose to marry a different person... sometimes these things can be traced back to the smallest of choice. For example maybe you met your spouse sitting on a bus that you never take but for some reason you chose to take a bus that day.

Sometimes the way we are influenced to make these choices are based on small little things like our moods or what just happened to us moments before or how sunny of day it is or how cold of day it is. All these little things that influence us are happening all the time in the smallest of ways. Think of billions of little small things like the wind blowing, the smell of trees, a car speeding past us, or clouds covering up the sun and making it not a bright and think of how all these things affect how you make your decisions. Maybe at the end of the day everything put together changes our moods or the way we think about a certain thing.

All of that seems very random and it seems like it has nothing to do with nothing but God has the power to control all these elements and manipulate them all at once billions of times over. It leaves us thinking we had a choice but maybe in reality God only puts us in circumstances where the choice we make is controlled and directed by all these things we don't have control over. He may essentially direct us where he chooses by hitting us with billions of little elements knowing what the right formula is for us to make the decision he wants. If all these elements are compounded over years and years of our lives we may think we have made the choices to get us where ever we are but maybe we really have no control over any of it.
 
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MrPolo

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sometimes the smallest choice makes a dramatic outcome in our lives. Our lives in a sense are dictated by the choices we make. If I choose to go to a different school, or I choose to work at a different job, or I choose to marry a different person... sometimes these things can be traced back to the smallest of choice. For example maybe you met your spouse sitting on a bus that you never take but for some reason you chose to take a bus that day.

Sometimes the way we are influenced to make these choices are based on small little things like our moods or what just happened to us moments before or how sunny of day it is or how cold of day it is. All these little things that influence us are happening all the time in the smallest of ways. Think of billions of little small things like the wind blowing, the smell of trees, a car speeding past us, or clouds covering up the sun and making it not a bright and think of how all these things affect how you make your decisions. Maybe at the end of the day everything put together changes our moods or the way we think about a certain thing.

All of that seems very random and it seems like it has nothing to do with nothing but God has the power to control all these elements and manipulate them all at once billions of times over. It leaves us thinking we had a choice but maybe in reality God only puts us in circumstances where the choice we make is controlled and directed by all these things we don't have control over. He may essentially direct us where he chooses by hitting us with billions of little elements knowing what the right formula is for us to make the decision he wants. If all these elements are compounded over years and years of our lives we may think we have made the choices to get us where ever we are but maybe we really have no control over any of it.
I agree there are influences in our lives that influence our decisions. I also agree that even small choices can result in large consequences. Where I disagree is that external influences trump our capacity to choose otherwise.

If I put two quarters on a table side by side and ask you to pick one of them up, do you feel you have the capacity to choose either the one on the right or the left? I certainly would.
 
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2ndRateMind

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Whether we have free-will or not, it is one of the axioms on which we base our society. If we do not have free-will, we are not responsible for our actions. If we are not responsible for our actions, we can rape, pillage and murder free of accountability. And I am not at all sure that that situation would be a social arrangement condusive to the civilisation most of us value.

We may not have free-will. We may be constrained by God's knowledge, based on our characters and His plan, to act as we are predetermined to act. But let us maintain the fiction, if only to contrive an environment within which our lives seem to matter, and are not trivial exercises limited as if we were actors constrained by the script of a play.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Love is love because one person feels compassion for another and acts in their best interest. I can see how people would love within determinism, but I cannot see how anything can be called love if it is not rooted in a compulsion placed upon the will by the heart, and we do not choose how our heart feels.
 
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ittarter

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Is there free will... or are we just pawns in a game of chess blinded by own limitations and literally just blowing in the wind as things happen.
If you want to have a better understanding of the question of free will, read War and Peace. Or, if you're more of film buff, try Momento.

It seems to me, when I read the book of Genesis (as well as other bits of the Hebrew Bible), that God is capable of being surprised. By the time we reach the New Testament, believers found it too frightening to go without a God completely in control, and so we lose that sense of spontaneity, of an open-ended future. I am sad to see it go.
 
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Epiphoskei

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That could just as easily be explained through anthropomorphism. To describe a God who interacts with the created world, even if he has foreknowledge, will sometimes produce language where that interaction may be confused with discovery on the part of God.
 
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rcorlew

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Do we have free will.....

Acts 13:7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This one having called Barnabas and Saul to him, he sought to hear the Word of God.

We absolutely do, talking of the 'elect" means that God only elects those who are willing to accept this election.
 
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Epiphoskei

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The question is not do people will, but why do people will? You can quote hundreds of verses about people wanting to do something, but the question of free will adresses the why of the wanting, not the wanting itself.

The defenders of every system explaining why we will believe that their system (and only theirs) leaves man free, but the differences between systems are huge, and in many exhaustive and unconditional election is not only compatable, but necesarry, for free will.
 
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sk8Joyful

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God knows everything,
whatever happens it is because of his direct control.

You may argue saying that in the end we make the choice.

Is there free will... or are we just pawns in a game of chess blinded by own limitations
God controls many objects & situations, that He chose not to allow us the resources to control.

All the internal resources, including free will, God did give us control over, how well do we function :) using these?
 
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Harry3142

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Damian-

It looks to me like you have been in a philosophy class where the lecturer 'pushed' hard-determinism. That is what you are describing in your post.

In hard-determinism the person has absolutely no control over his thoughts, words and actions. All these have been programmed into him through a combination of genetics, environment, and societal status. Even when the person believes himself to have free will, that thought has been programmed into his psyche so that he simply has the delusion of having free will.

One argument against this teaching is very simple; it's the lecturer. If he states that we are to trust him to be correct, then he is telling us that he does have free will. If he did not have free will, then his entire lecture series would have to be weighed against his own genetic makeup, his own environment, and his own societal status to that point, since by his own admission his words would be nothing more than the combination of all those elements.

Another argument against this is the 5,000-year history of societies gravitating toward law rather than anarchy. We are a legalistic society, as have been all the societies going back to the dawn of history and The Code of Hammurabi. Certain acts will be approved of; certain acts will bring punishment. This necessitates that people have the free will necessary to live as a cohesive unit under these laws. Their actions are not willy-nilly. Instead their actions conform to a set of rules which they accept as rules to live by.

St. Paul was definitely a person who believed that we had free will. We choose how we are to behave. For this reason he could write Galatians 5:16-26, telling us that there is a code of conduct which God expects us to comply with. And for this reason we can succeed in complying with that code of conduct, stumbling occasionally, but still recognizing it as the way in which we are to live our lives as Christians.
 
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Epiphoskei

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One argument against this teaching is very simple; it's the lecturer. If he states that we are to trust him to be correct, then he is telling us that he does have free will. If he did not have free will, then his entire lecture series would have to be weighed against his own genetic makeup, his own environment, and his own societal status to that point, since by his own admission his words would be nothing more than the combination of all those elements.
You are mistaking action for cause of action. A lecturer is to be appraised on the substance of what he teaches; why he teaches it is irrelevant to whether it is to be believed.

Another argument against this is the 5,000-year history of societies gravitating toward law rather than anarchy. We are a legalistic society, as have been all the societies going back to the dawn of history and The Code of Hammurabi. Certain acts will be approved of; certain acts will bring punishment. This necessitates that people have the free will necessary to live as a cohesive unit under these laws. Their actions are not willy-nilly. Instead their actions conform to a set of rules which they accept as rules to live by.
This makes me wonder if you understand what determinism is. Determinism in short is an understanding of the will wherein someone's action is the consequence of his nature meeting his circumstances. If that is the case, obviously the existance of law in no way creates a problem for determinism. By modifying our circumstances by warning of us of the consequences of carrying out actions we might otherwise want to carry out, a law code becomes a prominent determining factor compelling all but those few with unusually strong lawless desires to abide by it.

St. Paul was definitely a person who believed that we had free will. We choose how we are to behave. For this reason he could write Galatians 5:16-26, telling us that there is a code of conduct which God expects us to comply with. And for this reason we can succeed in complying with that code of conduct, stumbling occasionally, but still recognizing it as the way in which we are to live our lives as Christians.
You are making an unfounded jump from "will" to "free will," or more accurately what is called Libertarian Free Will here. Determinism and Libertarianism differ over why people will, not whether they will. So to say that because we choose how we believe we must have "free will" in the Libertarian sense does not follow.

But moreover, no, our own will is obviously not enough to allow us to generally suceed in complying with God's code of conduct. We have the need of the transforming grace of God in order to obey anything other than our own sinful lusts. The notion that free will is sufficient to allow us to obey God without grace is called Pelagianism and has been recognized as error for over 1500 years.
 
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Harry3142

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I learned about determinism by attending the classes the lecturer taught in the winter quarter of 1964. The first day that he lectured us he told us this: "By the time this quarter is over 1/3 of you will be agnostics, and another 1/3 will be atheists." He then proceeded to attack all religious belief systems, with particular vitriol for Christianity.

At the end of the quarter he stated that we were not to see anything as either good or evil. Since the individuals had absolutely no control over their actions, nothing they did could be classified in this manner. This was not a lecturer teaching what he himself had learned elsewhere. This was an evangelical atheist 'beating the drum' for his belief system.

As for our not having free will, Paul states that it is ultimately up to us to decide how we will behave:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

With God there is no such level as 'good enough'. Either we are perfect or we are condemned. Butwe cannot be perfect. For this reason God had to send his Son so that through his perfection, his sacrifice, and his resurrection we are able to attain perfection vicariously.

But neither are we to see our salvation as 'fire insurance' entitling us to wallow in sinfulness. We have been given a gift from our best friend, God the Father Almighty. It is his just due to expect that we will in turn respect both the gift and the Giver sufficiently to choose to have our thoughts, words, and actions conform as much as humanly possible to what he approves of.

Joshua told the Hebrews that it was they who had the power of choosing their own path. What he said to them applies equally to us as Christians:

"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua 24:14-15,NIV)
 
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