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Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

Eternally Grateful

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When one stands God on Judgment Day, will God ask, "Were you baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?" Will you be confident when replying, "Lord, I did not get baptized because I was not sure how to do it correctly and if it mattered for salvation."
this just points to the whole issue

God is not going to ask us if we got baptized anyway, for one God knows the answer. for 2. How we get baptized does nto matter (well if we were not immersed. we were not baptized anyway (in water)

But God will speak of those who scream they were baptized in his name and did all these other things. And jesus will say depart for I never knew you.

because we are saved by grace through faith, not works..

As paul said, not by workS of righteousness (good works or deeds) WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT BY his mercy HE saved (A COMPLETED ACTION) us. THEOUGH THE washing (SPIRITUAL BAPTISM) and renewing (REGENERATION OR NEW BIRTH BORN AGAIN) of the HO(LY SPIRIT
 
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Doug Brents

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it is if the person has called out to God. John 3 makes this clear. as does John 6 to name but a few
Just calling out to God does not save (Matt 7:21-23). If just calling on His name saved, then there would be none at Judgement who think they are saved but He never knew. Gal 4:29 substantiates this when it says that, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, ..". It is not in knowing God, but in Him knowing us that salvation occurs. He does not adopt us unless we are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27).
No. This would be a works based Gospel. My salvation is completed when I call out to God and God himself baptizes me into himself. where my sins are washed away (romans 6, 1 cor 12, gal 3 and Col 2 with the spiritual baptism done without hands
Wrong again. The baptism in which we are saved requires that man do the baptizing (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16). It must be in water (1 Pet 3:21).
acts 2: 38 is the most mistranslated verse in scripture.

Peter told everyone to be repent and they would receive the gift of the spirit . He only told a select few to get baptized in the account they had received remission of sin
What perverted translation are you reading? Acts 2:38 says, "Peter said to them, “Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Now, there is no way, grammatically in English or in Greek, to separate "repent" and "be baptized" from their shared relationship to "for (in order to receive) the forgiveness of your sins". Both of these relate to "for the forgiveness of sins" in exactly the same way. And it is clear from Acts 3:19 that that relationship is "in order to receive", not "because you have already received".
instead of focusing on water, why don;t we focus on God. he is the author and finisher. not water
Certainly He is the author and finisher of our faith. And He is the one giving salvation. But who does He say He gives it to? Heb 5:9 says that He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. Not just to those who have an intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel, but those who do what He says.

It is not those who are saved that do what He says.
It is those who do what He says that are saved.
 
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Dan Perez

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This is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and repentance have been done.

Again, this is true, and is on the way toward receiving salvation, but salvation is not yet received just because belief and confession have been done.

Water baptism does indeed follow after belief, repentance, and confession, and is the point at which sins are actually removed (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Your fixation on the "belief only" verses causes you a blind spot in relation to salvation. You must remember, Dan, that ALL Scripture is equally true at the same time. This means that while John 3:18 does indeed only mention belief, it does not override, overrule, or negate Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, or Acts 2:38, all of which place a human action as a prerequisite for receiving salvation. If you really believe (have faith) then you will do what God says leads to receiving His gift. If you don't do what He says, then you really don't believe.

Agreed.
And when I read Col 2: 12 , it read , having been BURIED together with Him in the BATISMA is in the DATIVE case , in the

Singular , in the Neuter , meaning Male and Female .

The Greek word is NOT BAPTISM and the Greek for WATER // HUDOR is not in the Greek text !!

dan p
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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God is not going to ask us if we got baptized anyway, for one God knows the answer. for 2. How we get baptized does nto matter (well if we were not immersed. we were not baptized anyway (in water)
Are you sure that everybody who wasn't submerged under water is not baptised?
But God will speak of those who scream they were baptized in his name and did all these other things. And jesus will say depart for I never knew you.
God promises he will be kind and will bless those who served others kindly in this life, those who helped the poor, starving, those in prison, and the others mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46.

I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
because we are saved by grace through faith, not works..
Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. (Matthew 25:34-36 DRB)

What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food: And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way? For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26 DRB)

As paul said, not by workS of righteousness (good works or deeds) WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT BY his mercy HE saved (A COMPLETED ACTION) us. THEOUGH THE washing (SPIRITUAL BAPTISM) and renewing (REGENERATION OR NEW BIRTH BORN AGAIN) of the HO(LY SPIRIT
For when we are in union with Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor the lack of it makes any difference at all; what matters is faith that works through love. (Galatians 5:6 GNB)
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Just calling out to God does not save (Matt 7:21-23). If just calling on His name saved, then there would be none at Judgement who think they are saved but He never knew. Gal 4:29 substantiates this when it says that, "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, ..". It is not in knowing God, but in Him knowing us that salvation occurs. He does not adopt us unless we are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27).

Wrong again. The baptism in which we are saved requires that man do the baptizing (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16). It must be in water (1 Pet 3:21).

What perverted translation are you reading? Acts 2:38 says, "Peter said to them, “Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Now, there is no way, grammatically in English or in Greek, to separate "repent" and "be baptized" from their shared relationship to "for (in order to receive) the forgiveness of your sins". Both of these relate to "for the forgiveness of sins" in exactly the same way. And it is clear from Acts 3:19 that that relationship is "in order to receive", not "because you have already received".

Certainly He is the author and finisher of our faith. And He is the one giving salvation. But who does He say He gives it to? Heb 5:9 says that He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. Not just to those who have an intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel, but those who do what He says.

It is not those who are saved that do what He says.
It is those who do what He says that are saved.
You and I have had battles. I agree with your assessment of the distinction between "for " and "because" in Acts 2:38. At least we can agree on something.
 
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rturner76

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The last time I counted, there were exactly 199,349,297,110 different Protestant denominations. Or approximately 16 denominations per person in the world.
That's exactly what I am referencing. If one is a Protestant (and in all fairness, there are many well-educated leaders within the Protestant discipline). My question is with nearly 200,000 different ways of determining the interpretation of scripture and further dogmas that were propped up by one man who may be trusted with all of the truth of God's message determining 199,000 different ways to interpret God's word, why would we trust a Pentecostal interpreter, a Luthern, a Calvinist, or any other denomination that is centered upon a single man's interpretation. When the original Church was founded by Christ and the leadership of it was passed to St Peter, when the doctrine was to be established, why would the interpretation have more validity than the global Catholic (meaning universal cchurch} which would include Bishops of Africa, Asia, Europe, and the leaders of the worldwide church of the world have less insight as a global community be stricken with a lower understanding of the official and universal church, why would these people who started their own churches as a single individual have more understanding of scripture than the world assembly of Bishops who voted on what was sacred scripture while the individual Protestants who created new churches 1500 years later with their own interpretation of the scripture that was canonized about 1200 years previous to this newly interpreted Bible that was already agreed upon in the 4th-5th century? What insight did Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and others like Arminiism which is the complete opposite of Calvinism? I mean, how do we know who was right? Are we to believe in predestination or free will? If there was a global community of Bishops debating this, we would find a much better system of how to determine what is right in a single-minded Church that Jesus founded the thousands of different denominations, each with their individual leader, none being appointed by Christ but their own individual misinterpretations of the New Testament.

So to me it comes down to do we follow what Jesus said as he passed the leadership to St. Peter, or do we base our salvation on someone born 1500 years later like Calvan or Zwiengly or Armininan. None of who had any contact with Jesus Christ, just their own logic and goes against the Church Jesus founded and the same Church that Cannonized the Same New Testament that they claim is all you need to learn the path of Christianity. I would think that the Apostles who sat at the feet of the Son of God would have a good enough understanding of scripture than some guys that came `1500 years later, each with their own interpretation of scripture. What I'm getting at is would the teachers trained by the Son of God have less understanding than people who came with their own ideas 1500 years later?


I do want to acknowledge that some Protestant churches are great and right on point. I'm thinking of the Holiness Movement started in the Methodist Church and Lutheranism. Even though Martin Luther was Excommunicted, he never renounced his Cathlic faith. He believed in it but he wanted The Church to reform, mostly based on the purchase of indulgements but he remained true to the faith and Litheranism sprouted up by his followers, not him, and they still believe in the Real Presence of Christ in Communion. It was his followers and other radicals that thought they were more educated in scripture thN The actual; writers of scripture.
 
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Apple Sky

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:confused:


a babtism.jpg
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Even though Martin Luther was Excommunicted, he never renounced his Cathlic faith. He believed in it but he wanted The Church to reform
Lutheranism is the historic Western Evangelical church purified by the Word of God.
 
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Danthemailman

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Those passages do not state it.
These passages of Scripture state that salvation is received when one believes. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Nothing here about moving towards salvation but not there yet/more is requited.
But Scripture is additive.
So, if you don't like what these verses say (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..) just "add" to them in order to make them say what you wish in order to accommodate your biased church doctrine? You turn these complete statements into incomplete statements and "add" to them. That is flawed hermeneutics.
If two passages say that different things (repentance, confession, and baptism) lead to one destination (salvation), then even if there is no passage that says so, it is not received until all of them are accomplished, or else the passages that say the excluded action is required become a lie.
I already explained to you that repentance "precedes" saving belief/faith in Christ (two sides to the same coin) and does not need to be mentioned in those verses above because from other Scriptures we can see that it's already implied or assumed. (Acts 11:17,18; 20:21) Also, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10) so it does not need to be mentioned either. It's already implied or assumed. Water baptism "follows" salvation through believing in Him. (Acts 10:43-47) The Bible states that we are saved the moment that we believe in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel. (John 3:18; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16 etc..) but according to your erroneous 4-step plan of salvation, the moment one believes (only step 1) but are still lost and then they repent after that (step 2) but are still lost and they confess after that (step 3) but are still lost then they are water baptized after that (step 4) and are finally saved which is not in harmony with numerous passages of Scripture. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9;16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..) which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications."
I do not reverse the order.
Yes, you do, and you even switched the order in post #342.
That is a common formula (order of events) taught in the church of Christ. Example:
Belief and confession, confession and belief are both required BEFORE salvation is received, for both of them RESULT IN salvation being received (the result ALWAYS comes after the condition).
No worries. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER. (Romans 10:8) Confession is an expression of faith and not a work for salvation. 1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
No Dan, there is no eisegesis. What does the Word of God say?
Your interpretation of these passages of Scripture below negates multiple passages of Scripture which make it clear that man is saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..)
 
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Danthemailman

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1 Pet 3:21 - baptism (in water as the Flood) now saves you through the actions of the Holy Spirit giving you a clean conscience.
Rom 6:1-7 - in baptism we die to sin, and are united to Jesus' death and resurrection through our faith.
Col 2:1-14 - in baptism our sin is cut from us by the Holy Spirit, and He unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection.
Gal 3:26-27 - in baptism we are clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God.
John 3:5 - without being born again (which requires both water and the Spirit) we cannot enter the kingdom of God (be saved).
In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when he uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household).

*The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

Romans 6 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification) and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.


Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean that the Israelites were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:12,14) This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well. (Romans 13:14) Right? NO. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6:11)

The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor he is imitating his superiors and trainers, is revealing himself to be a soldier. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Then once one is made a soldier one is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14. If one sets out to put on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

In John 4:10-14, Jesus mentions "living water" and connects it with receiving eternal life. Take note that in verse 13, Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, (plain ordinary H20) 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them (living water) will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” This goes beyond plain ordinary H20.

In John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" here is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If that sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the sign/symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no sign/symbol/picture.
 
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Danthemailman

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Dan, faith without action is dead and useless. Actions/works are the soul, the life of faith, and without them faith doesn't really exist James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).
Classic misinterpretation of James 2:20-26 which culminates in salvation by works. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You need to stop putting the cart before the horse.
Wrong, I have a fixation on Scripture, and the proper understanding of it.
If that were true, then you would properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. But you don't.
The Temple in Jerusalem, and the Tabernacle before it, was a symbol of the real thing in Heaven (Heb 8:5). But were the only place in which to worship God (make sacrifices, etc.) for over fourteen hundred years. The symbol can very much be real for as long as it is relevant. There will be no further Testament/Covenant beyond the New Covenant in Jesus' blood, so baptism will not cease to be the point at which we enter into union with Christ until the world ends.
You continue to confuse the symbol with the reality.
To everyone who HAS FAITH (pistis in the Greek). And again, faith is not real if it does not include actions, and specifically the actions that God has said result in receiving His blessing of forgiveness/salvation.
If faith is genuine then actions will follow but we are saved through faith at it's origin and not by works which are produced afterwards. James said "show" faith by works and not establish faith by works. You are putting the cart before the horse again. In Ephesians 2:8, the verb "saved" is considered a perfect tense in Greek which means it refers to a completed action in the past, with ongoing present results. Saved through faith, not works and good works follow as the fruit of salvation but not the cause of it.
Could Naaman have gone and conquered some great army, or shaved his head and eaten only grass, or stripped naked and run through town, or just thought in his head that he was cleansed in order to receive cleansing of his leprosy? No. He was required to do what, and only what, the prophet of God told him to do. And he was not cleansed when he turned off the road to head toward Jordan. He was not cleansed when he believed that if he went to Jordan he would be healed. No, he was cleansed when he had dipped the seventh time, just as the prophet told him he would be.
I have often heard those who support salvation by water baptism use the healing of Naaman when he dipped in the Jordan river 7 times as an example of receiving cleansing of sins in water baptism. Yet in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. We can read about it in Luke 5:12-15. No water is found here.

Second, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him. (vs. 17) If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, and not salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with cleansing of sins in water/salvation by H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)
It is the same with us and the reception of salvation.
False. Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan.
I have perfectly harmonized Scripture with Scripture excluding nothing, negating nothing, and overriding nothing.
Absolutely false.
You, and the others all around the world who teach the "easy believeism", "belief only", "faith only", "get baptized AFTER you are saved" false gospel have not properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture, and do indeed exclude, negate, and override many Scriptures in order to arrive at that false doctrine.
Is that what bothers you? Salvation is a free gift that is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone and that sounds too easy? You want to work for and earn your salvation? That would be harder. Saved by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to accept. You seem to prefer hard believism/salvation by works/works righteousness because then you receive merit for all of your hard work. We must never allow human pride to keep us from accepting the truth. You need to stop confusing "faith only" in James 2:24 (empty profession of faith, dead faith that produces no works - James 2:14) with faith that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone" for salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

"Water baptized or condemned" is a false gospel that works-salvationists promote. Ever notice how Scripture says unless you repent you will perish (Luke 13:3) and whoever does not believe will be condemned (John 3:18) but NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. We must properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
 
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Classic misinterpretation of James 2:20-26 which culminates in salvation by works. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In regard to "faith without works is dead," (James 2:20) James does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You need to stop putting the cart before the horse.

If that were true, then you would properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. But you don't.

You continue to confuse the symbol with the reality.

If faith is genuine then actions will follow but we are saved through faith at it's origin and not by works which are produced afterwards. James said "show" faith by works and not establish faith by works. You are putting the cart before the horse again. In Ephesians 2:8, the verb "saved" is considered a perfect tense in Greek which means it refers to a completed action in the past, with ongoing present results. Saved through faith, not works and good works follow as the fruit of salvation but not the cause of it.

I have often heard those who support salvation by water baptism use the healing of Naaman when he dipped in the Jordan river 7 times as an example of receiving cleansing of sins in water baptism. Yet in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. We can read about it in Luke 5:12-15. No water is found here.

Second, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him. (vs. 17) If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, and not salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with cleansing of sins in water/salvation by H2O but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)

False. Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan.

Absolutely false.

Is that what bothers you? Salvation is a free gift that is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone and that sounds too easy? You want to work for and earn your salvation? That would be harder. Saved by grace through faith, not works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to accept. You seem to prefer hard believism/salvation by works/works righteousness because then you receive merit for all of your hard work. We must never allow human pride to keep us from accepting the truth. You need to stop confusing "faith only" in James 2:24 (empty profession of faith, dead faith that produces no works - James 2:14) with faith that "trusts in Jesus Christ alone" for salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

"Water baptized or condemned" is a false gospel that works-salvationists promote. Ever notice how Scripture says unless you repent you will perish (Luke 13:3) and whoever does not believe will be condemned (John 3:18) but NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. We must properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works based false gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4; Galatians 1:6-9)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.
Credobaptists believe baptism is a human work. Paedobaptists believe baptism is a means of grace....the two can never be harmonized. It is the distinction between law and gospel.
 
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Danthemailman

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Credobaptists believe baptism is a human work. Paedobaptists believe baptism is a means of grace....the two can never be harmonized. It is the distinction between law and gospel.
More anti-baptist rhetoric. We have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) and not by water baptism. In Matthew 3:15, we see that just before Jesus was baptized, He said, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.

Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5) Also, the washing of regeneration refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Water baptism (H20) has no power to cleanse the heart from sin.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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More anti-baptist rhetoric. We have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) and not by water baptism. In Matthew 3:15, we see that just before Jesus was baptized, He said, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.

Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5) Also, the washing of regeneration refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Water baptism (H20) has no power to cleanse the heart from sin.
Do you even know what the term "means of grace" is?
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Water baptism (H20) has no power to cleanse the heart from sin.
So there is no difference between Mormon baptism and Christian baptism?
Who says baptism is mere water? The question is: Are there promises attached to baptism? Credos say no, Paedo say yes.

And the debate continues.
 
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Danthemailman

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Do you even know what the term "means of grace" is?
The Greek word for grace is charis. Its basic idea is simply “non-meritorious or unearned favor, an unearned gift, a favor or blessings bestowed as a gift, freely and never as merit for work performed.”
 
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Danthemailman

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So there is no difference between Mormon baptism and Christian baptism?
Who says baptism is mere water? The question is: Are there promises attached to baptism? Credos say no, Paedo say yes.

And the debate continues.
Christian baptism is for genuine believers only. Is salvation absolutely necessary for salvation? Works-salvationists (including Mormons) say yes. Those who believe we are saved by grace through faith and not by works say no.
 
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The Greek word for grace is charis. Its basic idea is simply “non-meritorious or unearned favor, an unearned gift, a favor or blessings bestowed as a gift, freely and never as merit for work performed.”
Not quite correct. This is a definition of charis. Absent from my question is word "means." What is meant by the term "means of grace"?
 
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Christian baptism is for genuine believers only. Is salvation absolutely necessary for salvation? Works-salvationists (including Mormons) say yes. Those who believe we are saved by grace through faith and not by works say no.
Are promises attached to baptism? Credos say no; Paedos say yes. Even Namaan's washing in the Jordan contained a promise.

Law/Gospel distinction

The Law is to do or not do.....Credos believe baptism is law....to do or not to do.
The gospel is all things the Trinue God's to save mankind....in Creation, Redemption and Sanctification. For paedos, baptism is an instrument of the gospel....
 
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