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And fakes, actors, hypocrites in this world; they may come on judgment day claiming/believing they got it made, whether by faith or anything else they believe, trusting themselves, not Jesus; and they are told 'bye-bye' instead of come into My kingdom.....He also said many will come to him showing themn all their works. and crying out. And he will say depart from me for I never knew you
Forgiveness includes the removal of the penalty for the sin (see the parable of the unforgiving servant). If the condemned were forgiven, then they would no longer be the condemned. The lost are not forgiven.Yes, For the saved, he forgives unconditionally
for the lost. He forgives them too. But they are still condemned, because of unbelief.
He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.
Thank you for agreeing with me
God's forgiveness was offered unconditionally, because it was offered before the world began (Eph 1:4). But it is received by each individual upon the demonstration of faith that each individual expresses in response to God's commands (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26, Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38).Then your under law not under grace.
On one mind you say God forgives unconditionally and now your saying he does not. which is it?
Your opinion is noted, but it contradicts Scripture so I will choose to believe Scripture rather than you.1. You can not be disqualified from heaven
Just because the word "I" is used multiple times does not make the focus of the sentence myself. I am talking about myself in relation to God's gift of salvation and what He has done in my life. Again, your opinion is noted, but it means nothing.2. read your words. it is all about you in this paragraph.
3. You said the word I 5 times. Your focus is on self. Not god.
Let me clarify a couple of things here. When I talk about spiritual death, it does not mean that the spirit ceases to exist or function. Spiritual death is separation from God. When this life is over, all spirits will continue to exist for eternity, but some will be "living" in harmony and union with God, and some will be "dead" separated from God.It will die. but my soul will never die.
Your argument is with jesus
He said whoever believes will never perish (die) and will live forever (eternal life)
This one verse alone shows you are in error. and I have many many more
The land of Cannon was a gift from God to Abraham, but he did not possess it. It was a gift to the nation that came out of Egypt, but they had to take it. It was theirs already, but they had to go to war for years in order to dispossess the nations that already lived there. Similarly, the gift of eternal life has been on the table since the world began, but each individual must take hold of it, and take possession of it through obedient faith in God (repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).No. I have the promise I will spend all eternity with him.
Now any reward i receive on judgment day, Yes, i have to earn them, by my works.
eternal life is a gift not a reward.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As far as that goes, I agree with you. But:Yes I have the promise, which I am confident as paul is that I will recieve.
Jesus said I have (present tense) eternal life. Read the book of John
John said I have eternal life now, read his epistles.
Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. He understood where he would be, and it is the confidence that allowed him to take his suffering and consider it a momentary light affliction
I could care less about OSAS. I never even heard the word until I got in a Christian chat room.
I believe in eternal security, I believe I have been saved, I believe I have been adopted into Gods family, I believe he who began a good work in me will complete it. I believe I have the seal of the spirit. and with this, I am headed to heaven.
Yes, we have confidence that He will complete the work He began in us. But we must remain in Him to allow Him to do so. He does not nail us to the potter's wheel. He allows us to cease being purified if we choose to walk away from Him.You can have assurance, Paul told you this
Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
God said he will complete it. Not that he may or may not complete it
And it is not based on how good or bad you are (you will never be good enough) it is based on his son.
Saul received the power (not the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit and was changed into a different person (1 Sam 10:6) which sounds strikingly similar to the transformation we are promised when we are saved (Rom 6:1-7). So, yes, I do believe that Saul was saved, but then turned from God, and became again lost.You assume saul was ever saved. I see no evidence of this.
I believe God walked with him as leader of his nation. But that does not mean he was saved.
1st John , Five chapters. Written specifically so those who know the truth may know that they know the truth specifically in God's Own Word, not man's opinion. (God's Word is rejected by most all the world today).Do they need to learn some more?
How can she tell and where can I lead her to know, without just giving them, my opinion?
First off, baptism is not a "take it or leave it" kind of thing. It is absolutely commanded of every person who wants to be a Christ follower (Matt 28:19). So if they have refused baptism, then they have absolutely refused Christ as Lord (and if He ain't Lord then He ain't savior). The only real debate about baptism is whether it is the point at which salvation occurs, or if it is done after salvation has occurred. There is absolutely no debate (as far as I am aware) as to whether or not it must be done by a Christ follower.It is interesting that someone just commented on my post 6, which you can read and one-on-one Bible studies I am having with two young ladies.
Briefly they understand: Adult Believer Water Baptism does not save you and is something we get to do to help us what is happening Spiritually (it is really just to help us), at the same time we are talking yesterday to one, about to humbly accepting God's forgiving us, to complete the forgiveness transaction. You might help me with this:
These very good teenage girls asked: "How do I know I have humbly accepted God's forgiving me?" They thinks they have, but do not feel that differently. Yes, Luke 7, he that is forgiven much, Loves much, but she was already empathetic and thought they loved God, as far as she could tell. Did the indwelling Holy Spirit enter them with accepting God's forgiveness, but they were not made really aware of Him? Do they need to learn some more?
How can she tell and where can I lead her to know, without just giving them, my opinion?
God best shows His Love for them in the free undeserved charitable Gift of forgiveness, but how can they know they accepted that gift?
Are there other "Gifts" from God, they could recognize accepting or rejecting?
Like I spoke of in Post 6, The gift of baptism (a big benefit to the Christian) is something you can humbly accept or reject and it is something very noticeable. So, If you reject the free gift God has provided in Baptism, also suggest you might reject other gifts God has provided?
once againSo? If they do not obey Jesus, they do not have faith.
when you add the word obey you add works to the equation.Then in faith, in grace, trust Jesus; obey Jesus. As written.
yesAnd fakes, actors, hypocrites in this world; they may come on judgment day claiming/believing they got it made, whether by faith or anything else they believe, trusting themselves, not Jesus; and they are told 'bye-bye' instead of come into My kingdom.....
which is what i have said, do you have a problem comprehending what others say?Forgiveness includes the removal of the penalty for the sin (see the parable of the unforgiving servant). If the condemned were forgiven, then they would no longer be the condemned. The lost are not forgiven.
No, it is received by each individual by faith. not works (john 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6. Eph 1 eph 2, titus 3 etc etc etcGod's forgiveness was offered unconditionally, because it was offered before the world began (Eph 1:4). But it is received by each individual upon the demonstration of faith that each individual expresses in response to God's commands (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26, Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38).
lol.. whateverYour opinion is noted, but it contradicts Scripture so I will choose to believe Scripture rather than you.
Dude, Your focus was on selfJust because the word "I" is used multiple times does not make the focus of the sentence myself. I am talking about myself in relation to God's gift of salvation and what He has done in my life. Again, your opinion is noted, but it means nothing.
Jesus said everyone is dead. they need helaed its why he came to save them.Let me clarify a couple of things here. When I talk about spiritual death, it does not mean that the spirit ceases to exist or function. Spiritual death is separation from God. When this life is over, all spirits will continue to exist for eternity, but some will be "living" in harmony and union with God, and some will be "dead" separated from God.
so you have to worry every day that you are walking in the light. or you are in a lost state.If, at the end of this life, we are not in union with God (walking in the Light) then we will not be in union with God in Heaven, but will be cast out into Hell and eternal death.
Nop. there will be none of thos.There will be some who were once in union with God who walk away from that union and cease to walk in the Light. They will spend eternity in Hell. Just being united with Him at one point does not guarantee Heaven.
lol. water baptism will not save you..The land of Cannon was a gift from God to Abraham, but he did not possess it. It was a gift to the nation that came out of Egypt, but they had to take it. It was theirs already, but they had to go to war for years in order to dispossess the nations that already lived there. Similarly, the gift of eternal life has been on the table since the world began, but each individual must take hold of it, and take possession of it through obedient faith in God (repentance (Acts 3:19), confession of Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
See, once again you focus on self. we must do thisAs far as that goes, I agree with you. But:
Regardless of what you might do in your life after you became saved? Hmm. I don't think so.
Yes, we have confidence that He will complete the work He began in us. But we must remain in Him to allow Him to do so. He does not nail us to the potter's wheel. He allows us to cease being purified if we choose to walk away from Him.
Then saul is in heaven today. He may have lost his kingdom. But he could not lose salvation.Saul received the power (not the indwelling) of the Holy Spirit and was changed into a different person (1 Sam 10:6) which sounds strikingly similar to the transformation we are promised when we are saved (Rom 6:1-7). So, yes, I do believe that Saul was saved, but then turned from God, and became again lost.
His spirit testifies with our spirit that we are his children.It is interesting that someone just commented on my post 6, which you can read and I had a one-on-one Bible studies yesterday, with two young ladies on a similar subject.
Briefly they understand: Adult Believer Water Baptism does not save you and is something we get to do to help us, with what is happening Spiritually (it is really just to help us), at the same time was talking to one, about to humbly accepting God's forgiving us, to complete the forgiveness transaction. You might help me with this:
These very good teenage girls asked: "How do I know I have humbly accepted God's forgiving me?" They thinks they have, but do not feel that different. Yes, Luke 7, he that is forgiven much, Loves much, but they were already empathetic and thought they loved God, as far as she could tell. Did the indwelling Holy Spirit enter them with accepting God's forgiveness, but they were not made really aware of Him? Do they need to learn some more?
How can she tell and where can I lead her to know, without just giving them, my opinion?
We are not to look for signs to determine what is true or not. Many a people think they are saved because of some experience or some sign they think they saw..God best shows His Love for them in the free undeserved charitable Gift of forgiveness, but how can they know they accepted that gift?
Are there other "Gifts" from God, they could recognize accepting or rejecting?
Like I spoke of in Post 6, The gift of baptism (a big benefit to the Christian) is something you can humbly accept or reject and it is something very noticeable. So, If you reject the free gift God has provided in Baptism, also suggest you might reject other gifts God has provided?
Please comment on my post 6.First off, baptism is not a "take it or leave it" kind of thing. It is absolutely commanded of every person who wants to be a Christ follower (Matt 28:19). So if they have refused baptism, then they have absolutely refused Christ as Lord (and if He ain't Lord then He ain't savior). The only real debate about baptism is whether it is the point at which salvation occurs, or if it is done after salvation has occurred. There is absolutely no debate (as far as I am aware) as to whether or not it must be done by a Christ follower.
Further, as I have shown in this and other threads, Scripture is very clear that baptism is the point at which our sins are forgiven, our soul is resurrected in likeness of Christ, and we are adopted as children of God and co-heirs with Christ. If they have not been baptized, then they are not saved to begin with, and don't have the indwelling of the Spirit, nor can they expect to receive any of His other fruits and blessings until they have been baptized.
You said the lost are forgiven too (from post 705).which is what i have said, do you have a problem comprehending what others say?
the lost is not saved, not forgiven, not justified. based on unbelief.
So now you are saying that the lost are not forgiven. Make up your mind.for the lost. He forgives them too. But they are still condemned, because of unbelief.
Faith without works (actions) is dead, lifeless, useless, and cannot bring us God's gift of salvation (which a living faith does (Eph 2:8-19)).No, it is received by each individual by faith. not works (john 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6. Eph 1 eph 2, titus 3 etc etc etc
The Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus on the cross, and so Matt 5:18 has been fulfilled, and every jot, tittle, word, and law contained in the OT has been rendered obsolete and passed away (Heb 8:13)(it was obsolete when the New Covenant was prophesied of in Jeremiah, and was ready to pass away, but it passed away when it was fulfilled by Christ).You can not earn salvation by obedience, God did not lower the standard of the law. it still is the same, Not one jot or tittle will be removed.
The law required (past tense) perfection, but we are not under the Law, but under grace. And grace looks to Jesus' perfection, not our own.the law requires perfection..
Precisely, in God!Where is your faith in God?
No, I believe that Saul is in Hell today, not Heaven. He lost his kingdom, his legacy, his salvation, and his soul.Then saul is in heaven today. He may have lost his kingdom. But he could not lose salvation.
What must a child know before being baptized?1st John , Five chapters. Written specifically so those who know the truth may know that they know the truth specifically in God's Own Word, not man's opinion. (God's Word is rejected by most all the world today).
Please read post 6 and comment.His spirit testifies with our spirit that we are his children.
Do they trust in the promise of God concerning eternal life.
We are not to look for signs to determine what is true or not. Many a people think they are saved because of some experience or some sign they think they saw..
Please comment on my post 6.
I already responded to this concept in post#714. Baptism is a requirement to receive salvation. Yes, it is God that does the saving, just as it was God who did the cleansing of Naaman (not the water), but God required dipping in water (specific water for Naaman) seven times for Naaman to receive His gift of physical cleansing, and He requires being baptized in water to receive His gift of spiritual cleansing.New Christians may not tap into everything that is available to them to help them experience the transformation:
I do not know of any Christian group, who believe the water itself saves you, since all believe it is God who saves and God is not limited by water.
Water baptism is not a “requirement” for salvation, since God does the saving, but is something Christians get to do in order to help them and others.
Where does it say you will have a physical feeling of the experience of salvation? I have not read that, but would be interested in seeing it if you could point me to it.I know that I needed everything God could provide to assure me of my conversion, both outwardly and mentally. God wants you to physically feel the experience of what is going on Spiritually.
There is a definite time and place in which we experience salvation: baptism.You would like to add to your conversion a definite time place and physical experience, which God has provided for you.
Where is the concept of "an outward expression of an inward change" talked about in Scripture. I still have not found anyone who was able to point me to that in Scripture.Adult believers water immersion is to be a physical outward representation of what had or is happening spiritually in the person being baptized.
These elements are not just figured, but are a spiritual reality. The old, dead man goes into the water, and he emerges a new creation in Christ (Rom 6:1-7).It is mainly to help the individual being baptized to better grasp what is going on, but it can “witness” to others observing the baptism. It has the elements of going down under the water (burying the old man), placing your dependence in another; the person baptizing you (surrendering your life to God), being washed (having your sins washed away), rising out of the water (rising from the old dead body), and stepping forth out onto the earth (a new person).
The indwelling of the Spirit is only for those who are in Christ. He does not enter into hearts that are not pure. And He does not purify hearts that are not baptized (John 3:5 says that it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God (the Church, of whom every person has the indwelling of the Spirit) without being born again of both water and the Spirit.The person is walking out into the hugs of his new family. It is also a sign of your humility, since it is a humbling act anyone can simple allow someone to do to them (so not a work) and since humility has been shown in the accept of charity (God’s free gift of undeserving forgiveness) it should just support and add to the memory of that acceptance. To refuse Christian water baptism when it is readily available might mean you are not ready to handle other responsibility like having the indwelling Holy Spirit and you are hurting yourself.
I see where you are going here, and I find no immediate fault with it.Christian Baptism replaced John’s Baptism and not circumcision, since circumcision went on at the same time as John’s baptism and it is not in the Bible where, Jewish Christians cease circumcising their boy children after baptism became available. Circumcision was a physical visible daily reminder to all Jewish boys and men that they were a Jew. The indwelling Holy Spirit is our literal daily reminder that we are Christians. The indwelling Holy Spirit replaced circumcision and is for both men and women.
No, the water does not save, any more than the water cured the leprosy of Naaman. But if Naaman had not dipped seven times (if he had not dipped at all, or if he had stopped at six, or if he had dipped in the Red Sea, etc.) he would not have been cleansed. Similarly, if we are not baptized, we do not receive salvation.Are you saying, the water saves us?
God has established the "rules", and even He must abide by His own rules or He is not the JUST God He says He is (2 Thes 1:6). The rules that God set in place state that if we do not repent of sin we will not receive forgiveness (Acts 3:19), and that if we do not confess Jesus as Lord verbally we will not receive salvation (Rom 10:9-10), and if we are not baptized we are not saved (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, John 3:5, etc.).I am not in disagreement here with most of what you are saying, but if God forgives a person and forgiveness takes place , are they saved or are there some rules God has to follow?
They are not forgiven of unbeliefYou said the lost are forgiven too (from post 705).
So now you are saying that the lost are not forgiven. Make up your mind
lol. We are saved by GRACEFaith without works (actions) is dead, lifeless, useless, and cannot bring us God's gift of salvation (which a living faith does (Eph 2:8-19)).
so the law required perfectionThe Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus on the cross, and so Matt 5:18 has been fulfilled, and every jot, tittle, word, and law contained in the OT has been rendered obsolete and passed away (Heb 8:13)(it was obsolete when the New Covenant was prophesied of in Jeremiah, and was ready to pass away, but it passed away when it was fulfilled by Christ).
The law required (past tense) perfection, but we are not under the Law, but under grace. And grace looks to Jesus' perfection, not our own.
I will not judge anyone I believe there will be many in heaven no one thought would be there and many in hell no one thought would be therePrecisely, in God!
No, I believe that Saul is in Hell today, not Heaven. He lost his kingdom, his legacy, his salvation, and his soul.
anyone can get baptized in water.Please read post 6 and comment.
How young can a person be baptized and what changes have to be noticed to be a correct baptism?
One other comment on this:I am not in disagreement here with most of what you are saying, but if God forgives a person and forgiveness takes place , are they saved or are there some rules God has to follow?
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