Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

Eternally Grateful said:

um no. The word is the water. or better yet the HS is.

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The Word is the Holy Spirit. The Word is not the water. But it is through the Word that the water has meaning in the removal of our sins.

Eternally Grateful said:

He did not say make them disciples by water baptizing them

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No, we make disciples (learners and followers), and then we make them His through baptizing them. There will be many disciples who are lost, because they were never His.

Eternally Grateful said:

Filth, the term means sin
Flesh is the technical term for our flesh. or the thing which condemns us.

It does not remove filth from the flesh. To think Peter is talking about physical cleansing here is non sensical. The ressurection of Christ does not physically cleans us, but it is the means of our salvation.

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And baptism does not physically clean us from dirt either. The resurrection of Christ is the source of our salvation, and the means of receiving it is through water baptism.

Eternally Grateful said:

So the circumcision without hand is done with hands?

lol.. Wow

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No. The circumcision without hands is done by the Holy Spirit when we, in faith, submit to water baptism.

Eternally Grateful said:

1. Jesus spoke of a baptism with which he would be baptized with. No water involved

2. he told the disciples they too would be baptized with this. again no water involved

3. John the baptist said jesus would baptize with the holy spirit and with fire.

Again, You got water on your brains. release it and be set free

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Baptism does not mean water. It means immersion. Jesus was immersed in death. The disciples were also immersed in death. John the baptist (and Jesus) spoke of the baptism in fire (which happened on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house). A person can be immersed in a language, or a culture, or a ideal. None of this requires water.
But the baptism that results in salvation being received in Scripture requires water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36), and requires that man be the one that performs it (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16), and that man choose to receive/submit to it (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Eternally Grateful said:

That is incorrect.

I am made clean and washed by the blood of the lamb, not water

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Correct, BY the blood, IN the water. You do not encounter the blood (where you are born again by the Holy Spirit) unless you pass through the water, as Jesus says in John 3:5 (water and the Spirit).

Eternally Grateful said:

also. not in acts ten and eleven. the gentiles were baptized with the spirit before they were baptized in water. just like peter said the disciples were.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

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The "baptism of the Spirit" in Acts 10 and 11 has nothing to do with salvation. The Gentiles received the Holy Spirit in the same way the Jews did "at the beginning" (on Pentecost), and the Jews already had the indwelling of the Spirit (John 20:22) on Pentecost, so they did not receive the indwelling again. They simply were empowered by the Holy Spirit with miraculous power (praise and tongues). That is all that the Gentiles received was miraculous empowerment. Then they received the indwelling when they were baptized in water and their sins were washed away (Acts 22:16).

Eternally Grateful said:

Your replacing the baptism of God with the baptism of water.

The is blasphemy through and through.

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There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6) as God says (not me). That one baptism must include water (1 Pet 3:21) as God says (not me). And it requires that man do the baptizing (Matt 28:19) as God says (not me). It is not blasphemy to say what God says. It is rebellion against God to refuse what He says.

Doug Brents said:

The Word is the Holy Spirit. The Word is not the water. But it is through the Word that the water has meaning in the removal of our sins.

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John 7: 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit,

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The word is Jesus

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

I am not going to keep feeding you anymore. All I need to do is prove one thing wrong. the rest does not matter

ARBITER01 said:

You're either ignorant of scripture or ignoring passagess on purpose,....

Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

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First, this passage says nothing about "asking God into your heart", nor does it say anything about "giving your life to God".
Second, This passage does not mean that just speaking the name of the Lord results in salvation (or anything close to it). We know this because in Matt 7:21 Jesus tells us that just calling Him Lord does not result in salvation. It is the doing of what He commands that results in salvation. Because, He says, there will be many at Judgement that called Him Lord, and did great and mighty things in His name (thinking they were His), but He will tell them, "I NEVER knew you."

So just calling out to Him, and calling Him Lord, and asking Him into our hearts does NOT result in receiving salvation.

ARBITER01 said:

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

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Again, this passage says nothing about "asking God into your heart", nor does it say anything about "giving your life to God".
"With the mouth confession is made resulting in salvaiton." This is absolutely, without a doubt, a physical action that results in the reception of forgiveness of sin. There can be no argument about this.
And again, the word "believe/believes" comes from the Greek root "pistis" which means "faith", not the American connotation of "intellectual assent". Faith is not real unless it includes action (as is indicated by the physical action of confession being necessary to receive salvation, and as is stated in James 2:14-26 (faith without action is dead).

ARBITER01 said:

Salvation comes from the heart, spoken unto The Lord Jesus.

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Salvation comes from God, not our heart, and is received when the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us in water baptism (Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).

ARBITER01 said:

Oh, I know you enough.

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Then please, tell me about myself. But be warned, any false statement from you about me will result in the immediate nullification of your credibility.

ARBITER01 said:

You deserve some hard truth. If you are not trying to be Christ-like and going through trials, then you're illegitimate like scripture says in Hebrews.

You can't be like Jesus if your not born from above.

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Oh wait, you have already failed, and therein completely destroyed your credibility. I am striving to be Christ-like, and I have gone through (and continue to go through) many, many trials (some of which some on this forum (form many years ago) know about). I have been born again (when I was 14) from above, and the Holy Spirit has lived within my heart every day since then. You know nothing about me personally, nor about my walk with Christ.

Eternally Grateful said:

John 7: 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit,

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The Spirit is the living water that flows out from us after salvation, but He is not the water by which we receive salvation (John 3:5).

Eternally Grateful said:

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The word is Jesus

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

I am not going to keep feeding you anymore. All I need to do is prove one thing wrong. the rest does not matter

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You have not even begun to feed me anything but false doctrines and lies.

Doug Brents said:

Because, He says, there will be many at Judgement that called Him Lord, and did great and mighty things in His name (thinking they were His), but He will tell them, "I NEVER knew you."

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You're misunderstanding that section of scripture. It deals with people who did their own will instead of His.

Doug Brents said:

So just calling out to Him, and calling Him Lord, and asking Him into our hearts does NOT result in receiving salvation.

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You're right,............ because you have to be called first to be one of His elect. It is GOD's selection.

Doug Brents said:

Again, this passage says nothing about "asking God into your heart", nor does it say anything about "giving your life to God".
"With the mouth confession is made resulting in salvaiton." This is absolutely, without a doubt, a physical action that results in the reception of forgiveness of sin. There can be no argument about this.
And again, the word "believe/believes" comes from the Greek root "pistis" which means "faith", not the American connotation of "intellectual assent". Faith is not real unless it includes action (as is indicated by the physical action of confession being necessary to receive salvation, and as is stated in James 2:14-26 (faith without action is dead).

Salvation comes from God, not our heart, and is received when the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us in water baptism (Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).

Then please, tell me about myself. But be warned, any false statement from you about me will result in the immediate nullification of your credibility.

Oh wait, you have already failed, and therein completely destroyed your credibility. I am striving to be Christ-like, and I have gone through (and continue to go through) many, many trials (some of which some on this forum (form many years ago) know about). I have been born again (when I was 14) from above, and the Holy Spirit has lived within my heart every day since then. You know nothing about me personally, nor about my walk with Christ.

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Blah, blah, blah,... meaningless banter.

ARBITER01 said:

You're misunderstanding that section of scripture. It deals with people who did their own will instead of His.

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Exactly. They did their own will. His will, as stated in Scripture, is that we repent so that we can be forgiven (Acts 3:19), that we confess Jesus as Lord in order to receive salvation (Rm 10:8-10), and that we be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). He says again in Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 22:16, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, and others that it is in water baptism (there being only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6)) that we receive forgiveness, salvation, union with Jesus and the Church, adoption into God's family, etc.

ARBITER01 said:

You're right,............ because you have to be called first to be one of His elect. It is GOD's selection.

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When Jesus was raised up on the cross, He called all people to Himself (John 12:32). Everyone has been called to be one of His elect, but only those who respond appropriately will be saved.

ARBITER01 said:

Blah, blah, blah,... meaningless banter.

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Only because it is truth, and your heart won't allow the truth in.

Doug Brents said:

When Jesus was raised up on the cross, He called all people to Himself (John 12:32). Everyone has been called to be one of His elect, but only those who respond appropriately will be saved.

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Again,...... you don't know scripture,....

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all the ones unto far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things are working together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose;
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Similar to what you said, you cant just expect someone to throw you in a creek upon the name of Jesus and expect salvation to happen,..... GOD has to call you first.

Read that last line. Salvation is a work of GOD, not a work of man.

I think that is enough with this debate. Either the truth will sink in or it won't. Later.

ARBITER01 said:

Again,...... you don't know scripture,....

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all the ones unto far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things are working together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose;
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first born among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 And whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Similar to what you said, you cant just expect someone to throw you in a creek upon the name of Jesus and expect salvation to happen,..... GOD has to call you first.

Read that last line. Salvation is a work of GOD, not a work of man.

I think that is enough with this debate. Either the truth will sink in or it won't. Later.

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Ahh, Calvinistic nonsense. The flames of Hell burn brighter in its presence.

You completely skipped over how God determined who He would predestine (as highlighted above). He predestined those that He foreknew; that is, those who He knew from before the beginning would obey Him. But as I pointed out, He called everyone to Himself, and gave everyone the opportunity and ability to choose Him (1 John 2:2).

Doug Brents said:

Ahh, Calvinistic nonsense. The flames of Hell burn brighter in its presence.

You completely skipped over how God determined who He would predestine (as highlighted above). He predestined those that He foreknew; that is, those who He knew from before the beginning would obey Him. But as I pointed out, He called everyone to Himself, and gave everyone the opportunity and ability to choose Him (1 John 2:2).

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Ye must be called first. That's not Calvinistic, that's just scripture. Laters.

ARBITER01 said:

Ye must be called first. That's not Calvinistic, that's just scripture. Laters.

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As I pointed out, EVERYONE has been called. There is not a single person that God has not called (John 12:32), and there is not a single person for whom Jesus did not die (1 John 2:2). THAT is Scripture.

Doug Brents said:

There is now no circumcised or uncircumcised (Gal 5:6-7, Gal 3:28). Salvation is the same for everyone, because there is no difference between them anymore. There is only one way to be saved today (and since the cross), and that is through faith in Jesus Christ. And faith is not passive, or "belief only", but requires action to be real and effective.

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Alright then, I am merely telling you that both your opponents and you, your respective views can be reconciled by understanding the difference between justification by faith and through faith.

Otherwise, either side will just stand fast in your respective scripture passages defending your view, and interpret the other's use of different scripture passages, based on that view, and the discussion will not converge.

Eternally Grateful said:

John 7: 37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit,

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

The word is Jesus

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

I am not going to keep feeding you anymore. All I need to do is prove one thing wrong. the rest does not matter

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In John 4:10, Jesus said - If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

In John 4:14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13 we read drink into one Spirit.

InJohn 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.  But this He spoke concerning the Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions water is unwarranted. The natural man can only seem to understand natural water.

ARBITER01 said:

I think that is enough with this debate. Either the truth will sink in or it won't. Later

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Sadly, the truth may never sink in for many folks and it's a shame that human pride will not allow these folks to receive the truth. We can lead a horse to water but we cannot make it drink. Eventually we come to realize that we may just be wasting our time beating a dead horse and that it's time to shake the dust off our shoes and move on, just as Jesus commanded the disciples to do in Matthew 10:14.

Keep fighting the good fight of faith and God bless you!

Guojing said:

Alright then, I am merely telling you that both your opponents and you, your respective views can be reconciled by understanding the difference between justification by faith and through faith.

Otherwise, either side will just stand fast in your respective scripture passages defending your view, and interpret the other's use of different scripture passages, based on that view, and the discussion will not converge.

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There is no difference between being justified by faith and being justified through faith. Both are ways of saying that we receive justification (the accounting of the righteousness of Jesus being given to us in God's ledger, and our unrighteousness being accounted to Jesus on the cross) when we exhibit our living, active faith in Jesus.

Doug Brents said:

The Spirit is the living water that flows out from us after salvation, but He is not the water by which we receive salvation (John 3:5).

You have not even begun to feed me anything but false doctrines and lies.

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you do not have to worry about me feeding you. You need to worry about God feeding you.

Sadly.. What you are eating is not from God.

ARBITER01 said:

I think that is enough with this debate. Either the truth will sink in or it won't. Later.

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there actually is no debate.. But I agree. only in this case. I do not think it will sink in.. SO many have tried to help this person. and we keep getting fed the same stuff..

Danthemailman said:

Sadly, the truth may never sink in for many folks and it's a shame that human pride will not allow these folks to receive the truth. We can lead a horse to water but we cannot make it drink. Eventually we come to realize that we may just be wasting our time beating a dead horse and that it's time to shake the dust off our shoes and move on, just as Jesus commanded the disciples to do in Matthew 10:14. Keep fighting the good fight of faith and God bless you!

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lol. As I say, he has to much water on his brain

Eternally Grateful said:

you do not have to worry about me feeding you. You need to worry about God feeding you.

Sadly.. What you are eating is not from God.

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I feed from God's Word, and the Spirit of God living within me daily. I do not feed from people, like yourself, who teach false doctrines and lies about Scripture. The best way to know the false is to study the true. For example, FBI counterfeit money trackers NEVER study counterfeit bills, they study, handle, get familiar with, and research real money. That way, no matter what kind of counterfeit someone comes up with, anything that is not real is easily spotted by them. It is the same with Scripture. I do not spend my time studying false doctrines or commentaries on Scripture. I spend my time studying the Word of God. In so doing, I know the truth that is in it, and can easily spot false doctrines.

time to stop feeding someone..

Eternally Grateful said:

time to stop feeding someone..

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The bible has

• different instructions to
• different groups of people at
• different times

regarding salvation requirements.

Instead of rightly dividing the word of truth, what he and you are doing is merely standing firm on those different instructions and disagreeing with each other based on them.