• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved ?

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,273
804
Oregon
✟167,769.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.
No where in does it say in Scripture BAPTISM IS AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE. No where. This is real bad theology.

If it were the case BAPTISM IS AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE, then we would expect verses speaking about baptism to mention the individuals who witness the baptisms to be the focus, or the testimonies of individuals to be the focus. We also do not see any testimonies for the public before baptism, past “they believed” (present in some examples and not others) which may or may not have been a vocal profession.

Bad theology here.




 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
4,086
3,105
Midwest
✟375,629.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No where in does it say in Scripture BAPTISM IS AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE. No where. This is real bad theology.

If it were the case BAPTISM IS AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE, then we would expect verses speaking about baptism to mention the individuals who witness the baptisms to be the focus, or the testimonies of individuals to be the focus. We also do not see any testimonies for the public before baptism, past “they believed” (present in some examples and not others) which may or may not have been a vocal profession.

Bad theology here.
You are entitled to your opinion.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: CoreyD
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,273
804
Oregon
✟167,769.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You are entitled to your opinion.
It's the Lord's Supper that is an act for the audience, NOT BAPTISM. "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." I Cor 11:26. The Christian's public proclamation is found in the Lord's Supper not Baptism. We have no statements of Scripture that you can give about baptism like you can about the Lord's Supper.

There is good reason why the Lord's Supper is a public proclamation. In the Lord's Supper we are active....as in Take eat and Take drink. In baptism we are passive.

Baptism is at least three things....1) Water applied to the human body 2) In the name of the Triune God 3) another Christian Baptizing you.

No Christian baptizes himself. What this means is: No Christian can take credit for their baptism, as it is the work of another. No Christian can take credit for their baptism anymore than a person can take credit for open heart surgery. Both are passive. Some Christian's will say..."I consented to be baptized." Consenting to be baptized is consenting, it is not baptism.

Baptism can not be an act for the audience, because being baptized is NOT YOUR WORK....it is the work of another.
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
4,086
3,105
Midwest
✟375,629.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's the Lord's Supper that is an act for the audience, NOT BAPTISM. "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." I Cor 11:26. The Christian's public proclamation is found in the Lord's Supper not Baptism. We have no statements of Scripture that you can give about baptism like you can about the Lord's Supper.

There is good reason why the Lord's Supper is a public proclamation. In the Lord's Supper we are active....as in Take eat and Take drink. In baptism we are passive.

Baptism is at least three things....1) Water applied to the human body 2) In the name of the Triune God 3) another Christian Baptizing you.

No Christian baptizes himself. What this means is: No Christian can take credit for their baptism, as it is the work of another. No Christian can take credit for their baptism anymore than a person can take credit for open heart surgery. Both are passive. Some Christian's will say..."I consented to be baptized." Consenting to be baptized is consenting, it is not baptism.

Baptism can not be an act for the audience, because being baptized is NOT YOUR WORK....it is the work of another.
You are missing the big picture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: CoreyD
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,273
804
Oregon
✟167,769.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You are missing the big picture.
You are missing Scripture to prove "Baptism is a public proclamation" Where does Scripture CLEARLY state Baptism is a PUBLIC PROCLAMATION?
 
Upvote 0

AveChristusRex

Unapologetic Marianite
Nov 20, 2024
478
225
19
Bible Belt
✟51,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

AveChristusRex

Unapologetic Marianite
Nov 20, 2024
478
225
19
Bible Belt
✟51,929.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Bad theology here.
Let's not be mean to each other; that's not what the Lord wishes! :hug:
If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by faith, not baptism. *Hermeneutics.
According to Catholic teaching, while justifying righteousness is the righteousness of God because it comes from God and is Christ’s gift and merit won on the cross: “The causes of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies… the meritorious cause is… our Lord Jesus Christ… the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no one was ever justified, the single formal cause is the righteousness of God, not that by which He Himself is righteous, but that by which He makes us righteous, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are righteous, receiving righteousness within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one’s disposition and cooperation.” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chap. 7); it also represents the dynamic relationship between the person and Jesus Christ and thus can be impacted by the person’s actions, choices, obedience, disobedience, sins, etc., and can grow or be lost altogether through grave sin: “I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:21, D-R).

We all agree that being born again exists: “Amen, Amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.” (GREEK: Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ Πνεύματος, οὐ δύναται εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ); but I would assume that you, being reformed, also admit that regeneration [or being born again] changes the person interiorly (I get this from the Reformed Protestant confessions of faith which explicitly declare that regeneration creates a new heart and a new spirit in man. From the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, The 1658 Savoy Declaration, and The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 13 on Sanctification: “They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them.”), but divide regeneration from justifying righteousness [the formal cause of justification], which is a huge issue.

Prior to the reformation, no one had distinguished the effects of regeneration and justification in the way reformed scholars did, as it was universally recognized and believed that regeneration and justification do things vice-versa: “. . . by the washing [λουτρόν] of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5, D-R); because of the Biblical teaching that you are regenerated or born again to a new status before God. Therefore, if one can prove that justification does regenerate or regeneration does justify, that contradicts the position of reformed scholars. So, while the aforementioned Reformed Confessions of Faith acknowledged that regeneration creates a new heart and a new spirit in man, it simultaneously insists that when God justifies, He does not regenerate or infuse righteousness [as you said, "public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism"], this is coagulated through the aforementioned Reformed Confessions of Faith:
  • Chap. 11 on Justification: “Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone.”
  • Chap. 13 on Sanctification: “They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them.” (The 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, The 1658 Savoy Declaration, and The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith)
However, the problem lies in the insistence that God’s declaration of righteousness is not based on His work of regeneration or that which is wrought in the individual. Moreover, you mentioned that 'sola fide' is the instrumental cause, which in table form would look something like this:

Causes of Justification:Protestant ViewCatholic View
The Efficient Cause:GodGod “who washes and sanctifies”
The Formal Cause, i.e., Justifying Righteousness:The alien righteousness of Christ; it does not change you or reside in you.Sanctifying grace in the soul (regeneration or the new birth)
The Instrumental Cause, i.e., the means to appropriate Justifying Righteousness:Sola fide (faith alone)The Sacrament of Baptism (which infuses faith, hope, and charity)

Yet Robertson is incorrect, as in Catholic teaching, God uses the instrument [aka the means of baptism] to regenerate the soul and infuse it with faith and sanctifying grace, thus is the formal cause of justification:
  • “And Peter said to them: Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38, D-R)
  • “… having been buried with him in baptism, by which you were also raised with him through the faith.” (Colossians 2:12, D-R)
  • “For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through the faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27, D-R)
  • Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you…” (1 Peter 3:21, D-R)
As we talked about earlier in this thread, someone who does not have the use of reason, such as an infant or an elderly individual, even though that person cannot make an act of faith, the habit/disposition of supernatural/justifying faith is infused into their soul along with hope, charity, and sanctifying grace in Baptism:
  • “For you are all the children of God by faith, through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως]. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27, D-R)
  • “Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως] of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12, D-R)
  • “For by grace you are saved through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως], and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;” (Ephesians 2:8, D-R)
These infused virtues make the baptized child or elderly individual one of Christ’s faithful, even though the person cannot yet make an act of faith. In the case of adults or those with the use of reason, they must actively possess an initial belief in the preaching of the Gospel and the Christian faith, which moves them to approach baptism (Mark 16:16 and Acts 8:37). Their initial act of belief in the preaching of the Gospel, however, does not become justifying faith and serve as the root and foundation of justifying righteousness in the soul until they receive baptism. Baptism infuses it, and that’s how they become Christ’s disciples (Matthew 28:19). Many verses in the New Testament show that receiving baptism is how one enters Christ’s body [i.e., ‘dia tēs pisteōs‘ (through faith)]:
  • “For you are all the children of God by faith, through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως]. For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.” (Galatians 3:26-27, D-R)
  • “Buried with him in baptism, in whom also you are risen again through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως] of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12, D-R)
That’s because, just like Galatians 3:26-27 and Colossians 2:12, Ephesians 2:8 describes how converts receive initial salvation and forgiveness of sins in water baptism: “For by grace you are saved through the faith [διὰ τῆς πίστεως], and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, D-R); it’s also why Scripture clearly and repeatedly connects entering Christ Jesus’ body with receiving baptism, which is how one enters Christ through the faith (see Galatians 3:26-27 and Colossians 2:12). In the Catholic perspective, there’s nowhere for those who proclaim 'sola fide' to put regeneration. So, the Reformed Confessions of Faith contradicted itself in saying that faith alone [which does not change the person and is not located within him] is the formal cause or basis of justification.

Yet they simultaneously teach that God changes the status of, saves, and forgives man through regeneration. This is hypocritical. See James White as an example: “The elect, until they are regenerated, are fallen sons of Adam as are all others” (James White, The Potter’s Freedom, p. 252). White, here, admits that regeneration justifies and, therefore, does not follow the Reformed position on justification. Thus, when Reformed scholars say that regeneration or being born again saves, that contradicts ‘forensic’ justification because regeneration is not a cause of justification in any way. Regeneration can’t be the ‘formal cause’ of justification because they teach that the formal cause is the alien righteousness of Christ that does not regenerate or change the person. And it can’t be the ‘instrumental cause’ because that’s faith alone, and regeneration is definitely distinct from faith in Reformed theology.

CAUSES OF JUSTIFICATION:Protestant ViewCatholic View
The Efficient Cause:GodGod “who washes and sanctifies”
The Formal Cause, i.e., Justifying Righteousness:The alien righteousness of Christ; it does not change you or reside in you.Sanctifying grace in the soul (regeneration or the new birth)
The Instrumental Cause, i.e., the means to appropriate Justifying Righteousness:Sola fide (faith alone)The Sacrament of Baptism (which infuses faith, hope, and charity)

This is, of course, a huge problem and, to my knowledge, has not been patched up by Reformed scholars of the present day.
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
3,167
631
64
Detroit
✟85,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I said this in the message you responded to previously: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:18-19). You had previously responded saying that Christ is the foundation, and I had shown evidences for that not being mutually exclusive to the Church being built on St. Peter; I think you ignored that message, and thats ok!

But, again, with respect of course, I don't think you're listening to the evidences I showed previously, and thats also ok! But I did show that, in the eyes of philologists, the Church, the fathers, etc., the Church is built on St. Peter; I feel as if I am repeating the same point, so im sure ViaCrucis or Ain't Zwinglian can do a much better job at explaining than I can. :heart:
Prove that "this rock" is Peter... from scripture. Go ahead. I'm listening.
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
4,086
3,105
Midwest
✟375,629.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are missing Scripture to prove "Baptism is a public proclamation" Where does Scripture CLEARLY state Baptism is a PUBLIC PROCLAMATION?
Whether or not you agree that baptism is a public proclamation, that is trivial compared to the question in the OP, "Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?" Let's see if these baptisms in Scripture were done publicly or privately. After Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:22-38, those who received his word (about 3,000 souls) were afterwards baptized publicly. In the case of the eunuch in Acts 8:36-38, after he asked Philip what hinders him from being baptized, Philip answered, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And the eunuch answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." Public proclamation to Philip. Also, compare his answer with John 20:31. In Acts 16:14, we read - "Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." Lydia and her household were baptized after she responded to Paul’s message. Her family was changed after she received the gospel message and publicly declared her faith in Jesus Christ.

In Acts 10:43-47, these Gentiles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, demonstrating to the Jews that God has accepted the Gentiles as well. In Acts 10:47, Peter asked, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” Then afterwards he commanded them to be baptized. We see a public proclamation here of their faith and their acceptance by God in front of the Jews. In Acts 16:30, the Philippian jailor asked Paul and Silas, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They answered him, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. Public proclamation. Being water baptized privately as an infant who is unable to repent and believe the gospel is unscriptural.

Now even in Matthew 3:6-8, when John the Baptist was baptizing people in the river Jordan who repented (repentance signifies repentance from sin and our new life in Christ) these people were also confessing their sins. John also rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism who did not bear fruit in keeping with repentance. All done publicly and the proclamation was clear. Then in verse 13 we see that Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Baptism is a work of righteousness - Titus 3:5) Then he permitted Him. 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” This was Jesus' public proclamation at His baptism. Through baptism, believers identify with Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection, signifying the death to their old sinful selves and the new life they now have in Him.
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,273
804
Oregon
✟167,769.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Whether or not you agree that baptism is a public proclamation, that is trivial compared to the question in the OP, "Do we need to be baptized in order to be saved?"
So you are not going to offer evidence for the Baptist definition of baptism?......that baptism is an act for audience? Baptism as a public proclamation of ones faith is a theological innovation and not found in Scripture.

Baptisms done publically is not a public proclamation of ones faith. SCRIPTURE ONLY SAYS THE LORD'S SUPPER IS A PUBLIC PROCLAMATION of ones faith.

Lots of equivocation going on here.
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
4,086
3,105
Midwest
✟375,629.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So you are not going to offer evidence for the Baptist definition of baptism?......that baptism is an act for audience? Baptism as a public proclamation of ones faith is a theological innovation and not found in Scripture.

Baptisms done publically is not a public proclamation of ones faith. SCRIPTURE ONLY SAYS THE LORD'S SUPPER IS A PUBLIC PROCLAMATION of ones faith.

Lots of equivocation going on here.
I already proved my point in post #276 but I can see that your mind is made up and your beliefs are fixed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoreyD
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,273
804
Oregon
✟167,769.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I already proved my point in post #276 but I can see that your mind is made up and your beliefs are fixed.
Are you saying anything a believer does publically....is an act for the audience? Going to buy fish or bread at the market...is that a public proclamation? Drawing water at a well? Public proclamation? Out of the two sacraments Jesus instutited....only the Lord's supper is called a public proclamation. BAPTISM IS NOT AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE.
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
4,086
3,105
Midwest
✟375,629.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying anything a believer does publically....is an act for the audience? Going to buy fish or bread at the market...is that a public proclamation? Drawing water at a well? Public proclamation? Out of the two sacraments Jesus instutited....only the Lord's supper is called a public proclamation. BAPTISM IS NOT AN ACT FOR THE AUDIENCE.
I never said that baptism was strictly an act for the audience. You are being ridiculous and unreasonable.
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,474
1,906
76
Paignton
✟78,335.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I will recopy Post #191

Romans 6 has nothing to do with the administration of baptism.

Critical to how Credobaptists justify “immersion only baptism” is specifically the word “buried.” It is used only twice in the NT and only by Paul. Normally immersionists will use the word “picture” to describe “burial” as going under the water.” And from the analogy of the “picture” of burial, come to the conclusion of the mode of immersion baptism only.
Not only the word "bury". There is Philip baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch:

“So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.” (Ac 8:38 NKJV)
“To bury” refers to any process in which we place human remains in their final resting place.

We have to make a distinction between modern western and ancient mid-eastern burial practices. In the ancient middle east, it was common for prominent people to be buried in a tomb. The Egyptian pharaohs were buried in their pyramids. Abraham was buried in a cave. King David was buried in a tomb in Jerusalem. John’s the Baptist body was “buried” in a tomb. The raising of Lazarus was from a tomb. And Jesus was buried a tomb.

Jesus was not buried in the ground and immersed with dirt. The women in the morning didn’t go to the tomb of Jesus with shovels, picks, and a wheel barrow to dig up the body of Jesus. This is not a picture of immersion baptism. When credo’s state this is a picture of immersion baptism, they are confusing modern burial practices with ancient burial practices.
The fact that the custom then was to bury in a sepulchre rather than in earth makes no difference - it was still called burial, and the whole of Him was "immersed" in the sepulchre, not sprinkled by air from the sepulchre.
A distinction must be made between what baptism accomplishes (Romans 6) and how baptism is to be administered (All the texts in the Book of Acts showing examples of baptism). Romans 6 is not a text on how to administer baptism.

The plain text rule is we are united with Christ death, burial, crucifixion, and resurrection in each of our baptisms. This is God’s action to us. It is the benefit that God gives us in baptism and gives us the result of all of Christ’s work ….the forgiveness of sins.

United with Christ is the result of baptism, not the mode of it. How water is applied to the human body is not specifically addressed anywhere in Romans 6.
No, it is not addressed in Romans 6, but it is in Acts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,076
1,402
sg
✟273,473.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I can see that you refuse to seriously consider what I shared with you in post #276 so I'm done as well. Good day sir.

It reminds me of the scene in playgrounds when teens raced to be the first to say "I don't want to be your friend anymore", to convey a sense of superiority. ;)
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,600
29,165
Pacific Northwest
✟815,774.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

Wansvic

Active Member
Jun 16, 2020
191
52
Virginia
✟46,768.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and baptism? No. Simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith (and baptism? No. Simply faith) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and baptism? No. Simply faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Receiving remission of one's sin through obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus is an act of faith.
 
Upvote 0

rturner76

Domine non-sum dignus
Site Supporter
May 10, 2011
11,529
4,030
Twin Cities
✟867,533.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and baptism? No. Simply faith) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith (and baptism? No. Simply faith) into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (and baptism? No. Simply faith) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Baptis is one's outward expression of their faith. While some may be saved by their word o faith, baptism is the outward expression of that faith. I understand how many would believe that their faith should be sufficient but if that faith is sufficient enough they would be baptised as Christ was baptized. My feeling is that the people who hate the Catholic church would rather separate their faith from Catholicism than agree with anything they have to say. It becomes a religion in and of itself to shout down anything that might agree with Catholics and then dare to agree with one Catholic doctrine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RileyG
Upvote 0