Do we need hell to preserve our free will?

[Hmm]

Infernalists and Annihilationists believe that hell is necessary to preserve our free will because we're free to reject God and there must be consequences if we do. There must be consequences but does it make sense that this has to be either eternal torture or permanent destruction, take your pick?

Most Christian universalists too probably believe in free will but would argue that, although we're free to reject God, no one in their right mind would do so once we know something of who He is. And God will show us who He is, He wants us to know Him and so, while technically He will allow us to not be saved if we don't want to, He knows that He will win us all over freely in the end.

Here are a couple of quotes from non-universalists - both are Catholic - but which express this thought very well.

The first is by St. Edith Stein:

"All merciful love can thus descend to everyone - we believe that it does so. And now, can we assume that there are souls that remain perpetually closed to such love? As a possibility in principle, this cannot be rejected. In reality, it becomes infinitely improbable. Grace can steal its way into souls and spread itself more and more. Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it can be outwitted".

And the second is by Pope Benedict XVI where he's essentially saying that we have a basic openness to God which He can draw out to separate us out from sinfulness:

"For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul...the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves." (Spe Salvi 46-47).

This argument puts paid to the strawman argument that universalism can't be true because it defies free will.

QED, no?

 

[Tolworth John]

Please explain how a sla e to sin is free not to serve there master.

 

[Hmm]

Please explain how a sla e to sin is free not to serve there master.

I presume you mean a slave to sin?

The only sense I can make of your question is that you're saying we are slaves to sin and therefore have no option but to serve Satan. That's not something I believe.

 

[fhansen]

Infernalists and Annihilationists believe that hell is necessary to preserve our free will because we're free to reject God and there must be consequences if we do. There must be consequences but does it make sense that this has to be either eternal torture or permanent destruction, take your pick?

Most Christian universalists too probably believe in free will but would argue that, although we're free to reject God, no one in their right mind would do so once we know something of who He is. And God will show us who He is, He wants us to know Him and so, while technically He will allow us to not be saved if we don't want to, He knows that He will win us all over freely in the end.

Here are a couple of quotes from non-universalists - both are Catholic - but which express this thought very well.

The first is by St. Edith Stein:

"All merciful love can thus descend to everyone - we believe that it does so. And now, can we assume that there are souls that remain perpetually closed to such love? As a possibility in principle, this cannot be rejected. In reality, it becomes infinitely improbable. Grace can steal its way into souls and spread itself more and more. Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it can be outwitted".

And the second is by Pope Benedict XVI where he's essentially saying that we have a basic openness to God which He can draw out to separate us out from sinfulness:

"For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul...the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves." (Spe Salvi 46-47).

This argument puts paid to the strawman argument that universalism can't be true because it defies free will.

QED, no?

Two of the brightest lights in Christianity, IMO. We can’t know the end, how things will be, with certainty. Another luminary, a 14th century believer named Julian of Norwich who, living during the Black Plague and burdened about the eternal fate of so many dying around her, prayed and pleaded with God for understanding. And He responded. Without being specific God revealed to, or "shewed", her, in a manner that left no doubt while profoundly and completely satisfying her as to the good end that He has for His creation, simply, that,
“All shall be well and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”

This is quoted in our catechism and for myself it confirms what we already begin to understand as we come to know God increasingly better, that our God is uncompromisingly, infinitely good and desires only the very best for His creation. While evil will finally be overcome, allowed for a season as He desires all to come to freely reject it (evil could not exist to begin with unless for the free will given creation, to men and angels) He’ll overcome it in such a way that all will be totally satisfied that the right thing has been done, with no more tears shed and no question whatsoever over His judgment and determination and actions that we witness.

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't believe in free will.

That being said, there had/has to be some, whose only purpose, and therefore only existence, is only to cause some others to get to go beyond this, and beyond that, they have no other further existence or purpose, and this is forever, just as it already has been from forever, for both, and no one gets to take any kind of credit at all for their own salvation, which is what free will would imply, but all glory/honor, for both, only gets to go to God and God only, and God alone.

God Bless!

 

[Hmm]

I don't believe in free will.

That being said, there had/has to be some, whose only purpose, and therefore only existence, is only to cause some others to get to go beyond this, and beyond that, they have no other further existence or purpose, and this is forever, just as it already has been from forever, for both, and no one gets to take any kind of credit at all for their own salvation, which is what free will would imply, but all glory/honor, for both, only gets to go to God and God only, and God alone.

God Bless!

Do you live your daily life as if you have free will? Did you choose what you had for breakfast for example?

 

[fhansen]

I don't believe in free will.

That being said, there had/has to be some, whose only purpose, and therefore only existence, is only to cause some others to get to go beyond this, and beyond that, they have no other further existence or purpose, and this is forever, just as it already has been from forever, for both, and no one gets to take any kind of credit at all for their own salvation, which is what free will would imply, but all glory/honor, for both, only gets to go to God and God only, and God alone.

God Bless!

But what would be so glorius about a puppetmaster pulling the strings and orchestrating all the decisions and actions of those in His puppet kingdom-including all the sin/evil that has ever transpired? Wouldn't a good parent desire to patiently guide their children into being good citizens of the kingdom, so that they own that goodness rather than be forced into obedience? Otherwise we end up with a God who creates imperfect beings, blames them for being imperfect, condemns some of them to hell for their imperfections while saving the rest while demonstrating that He, alone, is perfect to begin with. Not much point to creation in that case IMO.

 

[Gregory95]

Infernalists and Annihilationists believe that hell is necessary to preserve our free will because we're free to reject God and there must be consequences if we do. There must be consequences but does it make sense that this has to be either eternal torture or permanent destruction, take your pick?

Most Christian universalists too probably believe in free will but would argue that, although we're free to reject God, no one in their right mind would do so once we know something of who He is. And God will show us who He is, He wants us to know Him and so, while technically He will allow us to not be saved if we don't want to, He knows that He will win us all over freely in the end.

Here are a couple of quotes from non-universalists - both are Catholic - but which express this thought very well.

The first is by St. Edith Stein:

"All merciful love can thus descend to everyone - we believe that it does so. And now, can we assume that there are souls that remain perpetually closed to such love? As a possibility in principle, this cannot be rejected. In reality, it becomes infinitely improbable. Grace can steal its way into souls and spread itself more and more. Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it can be outwitted".

And the second is by Pope Benedict XVI where he's essentially saying that we have a basic openness to God which He can draw out to separate us out from sinfulness:

"For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul...the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves." (Spe Salvi 46-47).

This argument puts paid to the strawman argument that universalism can't be true because it defies free will.

QED, no?

well before we go into anything why everyone say hell is forever? Bible says hell will GIVE UP ITS DEAD at jugment day..now the lake of fire IE the ABYSS that even demons are scared of that one is forever...

 

[Neogaia777]

But what would be so glorius about a puppetmaster pulling the strings and orchestrating all the decisions and actions of those in His puppet kingdom-including all the sin/evil that has ever transpired? Wouldn't a good parent desire to patiently guide their children into being good citizens of the kingdom, so that they own that goodness rather than be forced into obedience? Otherwise we end of with a God who creates imperfect beings, blames them for being imperfect, condemns some of them to hell for their imperfections while saving the rest while demonstrating that He, alone, is perfect to begin with. Not much point to creation in that case IMO.

If you do not see the glory in what God the Father does/has done/will continue to do, then that's not my problem.

And God the Spirit used to blame others for a time, but does not any longer, not after what Jesus showed Him/did, etc.

And your misconceptions about what quote/unquote "hell"/LOF are/is, and why people really go there, or stay there, or are sent there, etc, is not my problem either.

Truth be told, your own ego insists on free will, and also cannot see how it cannot or would not/will not judge God evil if it doesn't have it, and that's also not my problem either.

You are all "too limited", and need to grow in your knowledge and perceptions and understandings more, but while you all are still too blinded by this insistence on your own will/way, that will never happen, because it will always get in the way of your truly knowing or seeing.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you live your daily life as if you have free will? Did you choose what you had for breakfast for example?

To the first, I have very little choice, most of the time, but I do try to take as many regular breaks from my own distraction as much as I can, etc.

And to the second, no, I don't, and didn't, and never do, and nor does anyone else ever at all either, etc.

God Bless!

 

[FineLinen]

I don't believe in free will.

That being said, there had/has to be some, whose only purpose, and therefore only existence, is only to cause some others to get to go beyond this, and beyond that, they have no other further existence or purpose, and this is forever, just as it already has been from forever, for both, and no one gets to take any kind of credit at all for their own salvation, which is what free will would imply, but all glory/honor, for both, only gets to go to God and God only, and God alone.

God Bless!

There are two wills; the will of the created, and the will of all wills, the Creator.

The Creator is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all.

Ta panta = from Him, thru Him, to Him.

 

[bling]

Infernalists and Annihilationists believe that hell is necessary to preserve our free will because we're free to reject God and there must be consequences if we do. There must be consequences but does it make sense that this has to be either eternal torture or permanent destruction, take your pick?

Most Christian universalists too probably believe in free will but would argue that, although we're free to reject God, no one in their right mind would do so once we know something of who He is. And God will show us who He is, He wants us to know Him and so, while technically He will allow us to not be saved if we don't want to, He knows that He will win us all over freely in the end.

Here are a couple of quotes from non-universalists - both are Catholic - but which express this thought very well.

The first is by St. Edith Stein:

"All merciful love can thus descend to everyone - we believe that it does so. And now, can we assume that there are souls that remain perpetually closed to such love? As a possibility in principle, this cannot be rejected. In reality, it becomes infinitely improbable. Grace can steal its way into souls and spread itself more and more. Human freedom can be neither broken nor neutralized by divine freedom, but it can be outwitted".

And the second is by Pope Benedict XVI where he's essentially saying that we have a basic openness to God which He can draw out to separate us out from sinfulness:

"For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul...the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves." (Spe Salvi 46-47).

This argument puts paid to the strawman argument that universalism can't be true because it defies free will.

QED, no?

Hell with annihilation helped me and it seems others to realize how unbelievable huge the debt is, created by my sins, it helped my free willingness in humbly accept God’s unbelievable huge Love seen with God forgiving me, so at that point I automatically obtained initial an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). This seems to be the only way humans can obtain Godly type Love since this Love cannot be made instinctive to humans (robotic).

Hell is there to help me and not the person going to hell or God.

 

[FineLinen]

Hell with annihilation helped me and it seems others to realize how unbelievable huge the debt is, created by my sins, it helped my free willingness in humbly accept God’s unbelievable huge Love seen with God forgiving me, so at that point I automatically obtained initial an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). This seems to be the only way humans can obtain Godly type Love since this Love cannot be made instinctive to humans (robotic).

Hell is there to help me and not the person going to hell or God.

The huge debt has been met with three words, "It is finished."

Adam1 = many made sinners.

Last Adam = the identical many made righteous.

 

[fhansen]

If you do not see the glory in what God the Father does/has done/will continue to do, then that's not my problem.

Ok?? It helps if there's a good reason for glorifying-need something to see.

And God the Spirit used to blame others for a time, but does not any longer, not after what Jesus showed Him/did, etc.

Only if universal salvation is true, I guess-in which case no one has ever been blamed for sin if we take that to its logical end.

And your misconceptions about what quote/unquote "hell"/LOF are/is, and why people really go there, or stay there, or are sent there, etc, is not my problem either.

Truth is our problem, or highest interest in any case.

Truth be told, your own ego insists on free will, and also cannot see how it cannot or would not/will not judge God evil if it doesn't have it, and that's also not my problem either.

Turth be told, ego need have nothing to do with it if God deems it good for me to decide, not without the help of His grace, between good and evil, God or no God, in my life.

You are all "too limited", and need to grow in your knowledge and perceptions and understandings more, but while you all are still too blinded by this insistence on your own will/way, that will never happen, because it will always get in the way of your truly knowing or seeing.

There are terms for this-but I'll just settle on nonsense. You may not have acknowledged your own limitations so well, so far.

 

[Hmm]

To the first, I have very little choice, most of the time, but I do try to take as many regular breaks from my own distraction as much as I can, etc.

This is your response to me asking if you lived as though you had free will, even though you don't believe in it. I don't understand what you're saying tbh but you seem to acknowledge that you have some choice in things even if very little. Doesn't this imply that you do have free will?

And to the second, no, I don't, and didn't, and never do, and nor does anyone else ever at all either, etc.

This was your reply to me asking whether you choose what you had for breakfast this morning. You seem to be saying that no-one has breakfast ever, which sounds like waffle to me.

 

[Hmm]

Hell with annihilation helped me and it seems others to realize how unbelievable huge the debt is, created by my sins, it helped my free willingness in humbly accept God’s unbelievable huge Love seen with God forgiving me, so at that point I automatically obtained initial an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love). This seems to be the only way humans can obtain Godly type Love since this Love cannot be made instinctive to humans (robotic).

Hell is there to help me and not the person going to hell or God.

How does something you haven't witnessed (people in hell or being annihilated) help you so much?

 

[Blade]

Romans 11 how God broke off original branches so others (you me) can be grafted in. "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree," "For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either."

Those natural branches rejected didn't believe. "Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear."

Leaving out the word of God in all this.. well speculation we can say anything we want. Do we need hell to preserve our free will. Is that what His word says about hell? It was never made for man but Satan and his angels that know God was with God in all His glory and power yet freely made the choice to leave. Is man a puppet? Man gets no choice because he's blind? The word aka GOD says different. We can't run with all creation (Just man) was or is blind. The word talks about we get no excuse saying there is no God because creation in its self is proof there is. As a rapper said "don't tell me there is no God this life is a slap in the face there is a God"

So hell and free will... I see how its being asked but.. its not written no offense

 

[Hmm]

So hell and free will... I see how its being asked but.. its not written no offense

None taken but obviously I think it is you who, not me, who is misunderstanding what is written, no offense.

 

[bling]

How does something you haven't witnessed (people in hell or being annihilated) help you so much?

I believe God's promises, both good and bad for us. The bad is to be avoided, by God's promise.

 

[ozso]

This was your reply to me asking whether you choose what you had for breakfast this morning. You seem to be saying that no-one has breakfast ever, which sounds like waffle to me.

I haven't had waffles for breakfast in ages. But I can't say if I deliberately choose not to.