Do we have the same "God"?

[blackribbon]

How many wives did Solomon have?

And what is the age of "proper" marriage? My impression was that the age of menses was the historical age of womanhood?

I do not want to defend these other religions but get tired of people pulling them out of historical or cultural context. I do not agree of young marriages but what we have now is not really the "norm" for most of historical context. We now are willing to make 26 year olds into dependent "children" based on the new healthcare laws.

 

[Crypto]

How many wives did Solomon have?

And what is the age of "proper" marriage? My impression was that the age of menses was the historical age of womanhood?

I do not want to defend these other religions but get tired of people pulling them out of historical or cultural context. I do not agree of young marriages but what we have now is not really the "norm" for most of historical context. We now are willing to make 26 year olds into dependent "children" based on the new healthcare laws.

There is a big difference between these two persons (Solomon and Muhammad). When Solomon married all those women he was disobeying God. God got angry at Solomon and punished him. Muhammad, on the contrary, said that Allah told him to marry his child-bride, Aisha, and he also said that Allah told him to marry the wife of his adoptive son (Muhammad stole the wife of his son). Allah never became angry at Muhammad, regardless of Muhammad's behavior. Allah never punished Muhammad.

Another big difference is that in Islam the historical context doesn't matter. Muhammad was, is, and will always be their role model. The Qur'an says:

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (Qur'an 33:21)

Therefore, if Muhammad had sex with a nine-year-old girl in the seventh century, it is OK for Muslims to have sex with a nine-year-old girl right now.

Pedophilia is OK in Islam - YouTube

PS: The Qur'an allows you to have sex with girls who still haven't reached puberty. I can prove it to you if you are interested.
​

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I concur. The worst aspect of it is that Muhammad is, according to the Qur'an, the finest example of how a Muslim should behave. Therefore, in Yemen and Iran child brides are commonplace.

This is a good example of how Islam adherrants are required to sidestep their Moral Conscience and ethical responsibilities .

 

[Crypto]

This is a good example of how Islam adherrants are required to sidestep their Moral Conscience and ethical responsibilities .

Yes, I have heard that some Muslims have problems accepting the fact that Muhammad was married to a child. Some of them have faith crisis, which is good since through that they might come to the knowledge of the Gospel.

 

[blackribbon]

Your moral conscience and ethical responsiblities are defined by your belief system. It is not an absolute like the law of gravity. This is why I stated earlier that you can't have either without a god or a belief system.

 

[Crypto]

Your moral conscience and ethical responsiblities are defined by your belief system. It is not an absolute like the law of gravity. This is why I stated earlier that you can't have either without a god or a belief system.

Yes, I concur.

 

[blackribbon]

There is a big difference between these two persons (Solomon and Muhammad). When Solomon married all those women he was disobeying God. God got angry at Solomon and punished him.

Solomon was punished for marrying women of foreign birth (with other gods) that led him astray...not for marrying 1000 women.

1Kings11
King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh’s daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the Lord had told the Israelites, “You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods.” Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord; he did not follow the Lord completely, as David his father had done.

Is there something else that say he was punished for marrying multiple women ?

 

[blackribbon]

And just an FYI...it is considered "normal" for a 9 year old girl to get her first menses. However, I do not believe that means a girl is ready to get married. I personally think that any grown man that finds a 9 year old girl to be sexually attractive has his own kind of serious problems.

However, many of these child bride situations do not consummate their marriages for years.

Also, don't forget that we have self-identified "Christian" groups in the US that allow child brides. Although as Christians, we recognized them as not being real Christians, the rest of the world doesn't know we think they are cults and don't share our belief systems.

 

[dayhiker]

I've never come across any mention that Aisha had reached womanhood.

 

[blackribbon]

Okay...I am no way comparing Mary and Joseph to Aisha and Mohammed...but rather am pointing out what was culturally acceptable at different times...

Exactly how old do you think Mary was when she was engaged to Joseph and gave birth to Jesus? Probably 12-15 because that was normal at that time. And do you any idea the age that "tradition" puts Joseph at? he is called a "very old man" at the time of his engagement and I have read ages up to his "80"s suggested.

It is dangerous to judge history by current cultural standards...because you will not get a honest image.

Let me reiterate, I do not think that Islam is a true religion or that you can reach God via there beliefs. But I do want to understand a real viewpoint of this religion...both way the militants say and what the average Muslim believes. I know I would not want to be judged based on the beliefs of some of the most strict and strange sects that claim to be "Christian"...so I am trying to find a basic understanding that will allow me to befriend people as I meet them in daily life.

And just an FYI: There are multiple states that will allow children as young as 14 to get married (13 in New Hampshire). These are current laws.

 

[Crypto]

Okay...I am no way comparing Mary and Joseph to Aisha and Mohammed...but rather am pointing out what was culturally acceptable at different times...

Exactly how old do you think Mary was when she was engaged to Joseph and gave birth to Jesus? Probably 12-15 because that was normal at that time. And do you any idea the age that "tradition" puts Joseph at? he is called a "very old man" at the time of his engagement and I have read ages up to his "80"s suggested.

It is dangerous to judge history by current cultural standards...because you will not get a honest image.

Let me reiterate, I do not think that Islam is a true religion or that you can reach God via there beliefs. But I do want to understand a real viewpoint of this religion...both way the militants say and what the average Muslim believes. I know I would not want to be judged based on the beliefs of some of the most strict and strange sects that claim to be "Christian"...so I am trying to find a basic understanding that will allow me to befriend people as I meet them in daily life.

And just an FYI: There are multiple states that will allow children as young as 14 to get married (13 in New Hampshire). These are current laws.

Aisha marrying Muhammad at age nine is mainstream Islam. That's why having sex with nine-year-old girls is permissible in countries like Iran or Yemen. By the way, the Bible states that women must be fully developed when they get married.

"On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised. Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, ‘Live!’ I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine. I bathed you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put leather sandals on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. So you were adorned with gold and silver; your clothes were of fine linen and costly fabric and embroidered cloth. Your food was fine flour, honey and olive oil. You became very beautiful and rose to be a queen. And your fame spread among the nations on account of your beauty, because the splendor I had given you made your beauty perfect, declares the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 16:4-14)

The point is that Solomon wasn't acting as a prophet of God when he married all of those foreign women, whereas Muhammad claimed to have married all his women while being the perfect example of a prophet. He even said that Allah told him to marry Aisha. You might think that I am a bigot for holding all these views about Islam. So, I won't post in this thread anymore. Do your own research and you'll eventually reach to the same conclusions that I had presented here.

 

[blackribbon]

Your quote is beautiful but is not a commandment by God...but rather a song of love. There is no minimum age requirement for marriage in the Bible that I am aware of. And just because it is common in some countries, does not mean that it is common place within the second largest religion in the world. I need something more "mainstream" to be a conversation point and not pull out some weird anomaly that most Muslims do not embrace.

And Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, not god himself. We have plenty of flawed prophets in our Bible too. Prophet or not, Solomon was set up as an example as what was mostly good.

 

[dayhiker]

Ravi Zacharius was just in Indonesia and this is part of his message. -
... as I write, I am in the largest Muslim country in the world, yet, everywhere there are Christmas decorations, the strains of Christmas carols in the malls and elevators, and the hotel staff wishing me a “Merry Christmas.” It’s Christmas in Indonesia. If you were in the UAE, Indonesia, even Syria, you would see the same thing and hear the same Christmas carols in the hotels and malls.

 

[Crypto]

Ravi Zacharius was just in Indonesia and this is part of his message. -
... as I write, I am in the largest Muslim country in the world, yet, everywhere there are Christmas decorations, the strains of Christmas carols in the malls and elevators, and the hotel staff wishing me a “Merry Christmas.” It’s Christmas in Indonesia. If you were in the UAE, Indonesia, even Syria, you would see the same thing and hear the same Christmas carols in the hotels and malls.

LOL. Bring Bibles to Saudi Arabia and start handing them over as presents. You'll be beheaded in no time.

 

[dayhiker]

Humans ... we have a few contradictions .... *smile*

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

what I find alot is that people in various "religions" do not research their religion, nor do they really read their bible all that much and that includes Christians. None of us read our bibles enough IMO. People just "choose" to believe this or that, not really knowing why they believe it.
Nobody ever "chooses" to believe something they know is not true. They don't say to themselves "well I know this is not true, but I'm going to believe it anyway" No. They believe it for some reason, but the reason isn't usually because they have really delved in and studied to make sure it is the truth. It's usually something more like, they were raised that way, or their friend believes in it or who knows.
There have been some people like Josh McDowell, who have set out to try to disprove Christianity, and when they really studied it, they became Christians.

There is a book that I used as a reference alot in my earlier Christian years called Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin.

Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet - Kingdom of the Cults

Book Review: "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin (The Prayer Foundation)

Back then there weren't alot of Muslim or Islamic believers around. Most were Mormon or JW's in my area. But he just goes thru what they believe to try to equip believers with the knowledge, because like I said, many believers of other "religions" don't know much about their "religion".

 

[Crypto]

what I find alot is that people in various "religions" do not research their religion, nor do they really read their bible all that much and that includes Christians. None of us read our bibles enough IMO. People just "choose" to believe this or that, not really knowing why they believe it.
Nobody ever "chooses" to believe something they know is not true. They don't say to themselves "well I know this is not true, but I'm going to believe it anyway" No. They believe it for some reason, but the reason isn't usually because they have really delved in and studied to make sure it is the truth. It's usually something more like, they were raised that way, or their friend believes in it or who knows.
There have been some people like Josh McDowell, who have set out to try to disprove Christianity, and when they really studied it, they became Christians.

There is a book that I used as a reference alot in my earlier Christian years called Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin.

Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet - Kingdom of the Cults

Book Review: "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin (The Prayer Foundation)

Back then there weren't alot of Muslim or Islamic believers around. Most were Mormon or JW's in my area. But he just goes thru what they believe to try to equip believers with the knowledge, because like I said, many believers of other "religions" don't know much about their "religion".

That's very interesting. I was raised in a predominantly Catholic country. In my city Evangelicals were regarded as strange members of a semi-sect. I also thought that they were part of a sect, until I heard the gospel from one of them and I realized how wrong I was. Now I am one of the members of the "sect". LOL.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

in my day people who believed in Jesus were referred to as Jesus Freaks. I am and always was proud to be considered a Jesus Freak. I even have a sticker that says JF and around the edges it says Jesus Freak.

I think the worst insult someone could give me would be to say, "Oh you're a Christian? I didn't know that"
Because if I am not showing my faith by how I live my life, that would be a tragedy. Like a closet Christian or something.

Good on you for joining the "sect" LOL

 

[dayhiker]

Walter Martin's book was a text book when I was in college. Learned a lot from that book.

 

[Crypto]

Walter Martin's book was a text book when I was in college. Learned a lot from that book.

Did you study theology?