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Again with the slave language.
What if it didn't conflict with your values. Would it still be wrong?
You're the one who spoke in terms of ownership. What else is ownership of another. Yes is would be wrong to abandon a chosen obligation.
Now suppose my children are grown and I am in so much pain that life has no value any more. Don't I have the right to end my life?
Is it important to you for everyone to agree on what is wrong? If so, why?
Is it possible to get everyone to agree on what is wrong?
You're the one who spoke in terms of ownership. What else is ownership of another.
I might use a term like "love" or "service". "Slave" could be an acceptable term but it's tricky because it's so negatively charged. The fact that you're using this term goes to show your negative perception of us belonging to one another.
I don´t know that we need such a "right" in order to do it. Who´d have the "right" to forbid us to harm ourselves?Do we have the right to harm ourselves?
You're right, I do have a negative perception of us belonging to one another. My life is mine and yours is yours. I don't believe in such a thing as unearned love or admiration. I choose to give my love to those who share my values and the rest I let them go their own way.
I'm not sure why we should use the word "slave" here.
It seems like it's only being used to charge the issue with a negative connotation.
Why would it be wrong to abandon my children?
So there's nothing that I really owe my children? I just owe stuff to myself?
Ok, a couple of thoughts (please don´t take any of this personally - you asked):What's a better way to think about it?
How does one earn love?
If love is earned, the one doing the loving is basically just participating in a transaction much like an employer would compensate an employee?
No thanks. Preaching is what happens when all else fails.
It is not harmful. It is merely a symbol of the covenant God made with Abraham.
-_- people literally can die from it and frequently did in the past.
I wouldn't use the employer/employee analogy but definitely it is a transaction. The currency involved here is virtue and values. I love someone because of their qualities and character and not for what they do for me. There are some people who I love and admire greatly who I've never met such as Walter E. Williams, Thomas Sowell and Ayn Rand. Love to me is definitely a payment in exchange for the values and virtues a person has that I share.
-_- people literally can die from it and frequently did in the past.
Well said. You can just imagine the less than sanitary conditions it was done under. Heck, I know someone who almost lost his member as a child due to an infection from being circumcised. I'd rather die.
Virtue and values seem like fairly nebulous and subjective criterion. What makes someone virtuous and what sort of values must they adhere to before they are worthy of being loved? For instance, though I have no idea what sort of person she was and cannot tell you if I could have known her personally and found her worthy(i.e. worthy according to the standards you set forth above) of love, I have read some of her works and I find Ayn Rand's philosophy to be one I reject as petty, selfish and bordering on anti social. Still I would not say Ayn Rand was these things as I never met the woman and what a person may write may well not be reflected in that person's actual real life.
I suppose the idea of loving a new born would be right out of the question as the newborn does not display any qualities or character that would be admirable? However, you contend one can love someone one has never met? If one has never met a person how does one possibly determine if they are worthy of being loved or admired? How can a stranger have earned one's love without that one ever being able to examine whether the stranger's words and deeds are consistent with each other?
Okay how about honesty. Is that a nebulous value. How about integrity. Is that nebulouse and subjective? How about self reliant? That does not seem to be a very concrete quality. How about rational? That is not subjective or nebulous quality. Do you not know what a virtue is? These things are just some of the requirements that I require before I grant my admiration to a person.
Infection also happens in ear piercing and tattooing. But I doubt that people frequently died from those or circumcision. And Of course, it was never ear piercing, tattooing or circumcision that caused the deaths it was the infection caused by unhygienic practices. Circumcision itself is not harmful, poor hygene is.
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